Good Column on Non-lead Ammo

[airedale]

This lead tainted meat crap is caused from piss poor butchering practices. Bloodshot meat and anything else questionable around the wound area is easily seen, it should be cut away and discarded instead of being put into the grinder with the good stuff. Implying that a deer shot with a conventional lead core bullet is unsafe to eat is pure baloney!

 

Al

[Curmudgeon]

This lead tainted meat crap is caused from piss poor butchering practices. Bloodshot meat and anything else questionable around the wound area is easily seen, it should be cut away and discarded instead of being put into the grinder with the good stuff. Implying that a deer shot with a conventional lead core bullet is unsafe to eat is pure baloney!

 

Al

 

 

Airedale -

 

You call it "tainted meat crap" The reality is, it happens, more with commercially processed meat than hunter processed meat. That has been documented. Consider how many people use commercial processors. Another significant factor is grinding meat. A single chunk of lead - as opposed to tiny fragments - that gets in a grinder, will smear on the blades and mix throughout the batch. Since many commercial processors grind multiple deer at once, a lot of meat that may have had no contamination will be contaminated.

 

The last time a deer was shot with lead on this property, we processed the others first and ground that one last. The guy who shot it took all his ground meat home. I didn't want the granddaughters to eat any of it.

 

Since lead tainted meat is a reality, how are you going to get all the commercial butchers and their minimum wage, seasonal employees to follow your instructions?

 

Rob -

 

This paper from 2015 mentions millions of waterfowl being affected in the period before the ban on lead for waterfowl - https://www.fws.gov/cno/es/CalCondor/PDF_files/Golden_Warner_Coffey%202015.pdf

 

[shawnhu]

Rob -

No, I have no data how many die each year. My experience has been with individuals. I have a photo of 38 lead-killed bald eagles that were accumulated over a year in a FWS region. I do know that of 239 wild golden eagles that had blood drawn and tested (190 in the west, 49 in the east), 60% had blood-lead levels above what would be considered "lead poisoning" in a child. At the lower range - like a child - this level does not kill them. It does affect them and their ability to function as predators. At higher levels, they die directly from the lead, or from secondary causes due to the affects of the lead: exposure, starvation, predation, etc.

If I had to guess, I would say that thousands of bald eagles are affected by lead each year. All may not die. One reason is it hard to get a good number is, a sickened raptor will go off and hide. They die out there on the landscape where they rot, are scavenged, or turn to dust. Few are considerate enough to die next to a road, or on a walking path.

As populations, I do not think bald eagles, hawks ravens and crows are threatened, even though numbers of individuals die. The same cannot be said for golden eagles in the east, or condors in the west. These are small populations. A few individuals matter.

Yes, and they use frangible lead bullets. I was told this is not a problem because they only take head shots. Hmmmmmmm.

Shawnhu -

I hope you reread what you wrote in the light of day. I get the feeling you aren't a fan of the poor. Let's ignore them for a moment.

How can anyone make a choice when they do not have information? What if I - or one of your friends - invited you and your kids to my house and fed you toxic meat? Many people who are providing meat with lead in it, have no idea. You have a choice about trusting the safety of the food, however, you can not make a decision without information. There are no labels on pantry meat in NYS and most states. I did learn since I was last here that in addition to ND, IA and MN have warnings. MN scans every package.

Isn't one definition of poverty "a lack of choices"? If you are poor and the do-gooders at the food pantry give you meat, do you assume it is safe? When you are having trouble keeping the family fed, questioning the food provided by bleeding heart liberals is unlikely.

You're right. I'm not a fan of the poor. No one should be poor. There shouldn't be any poverty, but there is. I grew up poor, but I've never had to take handouts or felt the need to eat wild game shot by others. We used our two hands, two feet, and fed ourselves anyway we could. So you'll have to excuse me when I have zero compassion for those who beg for food, and then blame the hunters providing the food for having lead in it. It's clear that the issue is not the hunter and the bullet he chooses to use, but the practices used to distribute the tainted meat. But you seem to think otherwise and want to restrict hunters, when we as a community already face many restrictions. It's clear where you stand in terms of conservation as a whole.

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[airedale]

What I am saying is place the blame where it belongs, "lousey butchering", not taking the time to cut away any questionable meat around the wound area where there may be some lead.

 

Al

[mike rossi]

What I am saying is place the blame where it belongs, "lousey butchering", not taking the time to cut away any questionable meat around the wound area where there may be some lead.

 

Al

 

Then what do you do with the trimmed out meat? 

[virgil]

Wouldn't the small increase in cost for copper be offset by the decrease in wasted meat?  I don't recall exactly, but the box of shells i bought this past year was only a few dollars more than the ammo I've bought in the past.  If you avoid having to throw away a few pounds of meat, it seems like a breakeven at the very least- not even considering the potential health concerns of failing to remove all of the lead fragments.

[airedale]

Waste from any game animal or farm animal  I butcher is buried, What I consider to be good bones are given to my dogs.

 

I  would not consume any bloodshot meat regardless of the type of bullet that is used be it copper or lead, it is cut away and discarded.

 

Al

Edited March 9, 2016 by airedale

[DirtTime]

I bought a box of Rio Bismuth for turkey hunting. Because I got them at a local shop it was $40 for ten shells. Just feel that's pretty steep IMO. I used two to get a pattern and the rest will be for shooting at game not paper.

I had a Dr. appointment today and on the way home I decided to hit Wally-World. They have the Winchester Super-X steel shot on rollback for $6 a box, so I picked one up in #6 to see how they work in my shotgun.

I have nothing against anyone who uses non lead ammo, nor lead ammo for that matter.

I do agree 100% on no lead for water fowl do to how much it effects all living creatures around the water. You shoot, pellets that miss end up in the water and it effects the fish, frogs etc. .

 

 

 

[Grouse]

It isn't only those who want safer bullets who have an agenda. You guys talk before you even know what you are talking about. Read Grouse's post #32 and Shawnhu's #34. You guys just jump to conclusions. You don't know. You don't ask. You just jump.

 

If you go back and read post #32 you will see question marks, because I was asking questions.  Talk about not knowing what you are talking about.

 

Why do you guys get so upset with people who question you?  (That's a question)  If you post something, expect to be questioned.  I'm not going to look up info for everything somebody posts right from the start.  I'll do it if I don't think your answers to my questions are accurate.  This is your pet concern, not everyone else's.

 

Being passionate about something is fine, until you start belittling everyone who challenges your passion.

[Curmudgeon]

 But you..........want to restrict hunters, when we as a community already face many restrictions. It's clear where you stand in terms of conservation as a whole.

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I know it is clear where I stand. I love wildlife - deer, birds, herps, fish. I believe a lot of the satisfaction hunters get from hunting has to do with wildlife they are not pursuing. However, the first part of the excerpted quote above, you made up from whole cloth. You are not arguing with me. You are arguing with an idea in your head.

 

Then what do you do with the trimmed out meat? 

 

It is good that airdale is burying his lead tainted scraps. Most people dump them. Some in the landfill, some in the woods. Since mine have no lead in them, I do not hesitate to put out scraps for the scavengers. The question I have is what happens to all the lead tainted trimmings from commercial butcher shops? A lot of that stuff goes to rendering plants for dog food. There is at least one state - with a serious eagle poisoning issue - that allows coyote hunters to use it as bait.

[Curmudgeon]

If you go back and read post #32 you will see question marks, because I was asking questions. 

 

Guilty as charged. Sorry.

 

[Grouse]

If you choose to use non lead ammo, that's fine.  But trying to prevent anyone else from using it by force of law, ridicule or intimidation, is totalitarian.  If venison donation programs are unhealthy because the deer are shot with lead, eliminate the programs with proof of contamination.  (I think they tried doing that and got a lot of angry responses to it).

 

I agree non lead is better and applaud anyone who uses copper, but I would never go so far as to condemn those who don't.  Until more proof of effect is confirmed, and it's proven most raptors are killed by lead they ingest from hunter's bullets and not other lead sources, demanding nobody use lead ammo is a dangerous mindset.  As an aside, if hunter's stop using ammo that kills raptors, but other raptor mortality factors are not addressed or given a pass, hunter's should not take that lightly.

 

And if lead is to be banned, the folks who want it stopped bear the responsibility for whatever consequences occur from it afterwards.  If supply cannot be met, or prices skyrocket, or the government decides no firearm hunting is safe at all, those who started the ball rolling should be the ones who are held accountable for their zealotry.

 

Be mindful of the changes you think should be.  A little extrapolation regarding the path created for the future may give you pause too.

[Curmudgeon]

You are arguing against a ban. I am arguing for people to voluntarily switch.

 

There are compelling reasons for deer hunters to use copper bullets: human health ( yes you can mitigate how much lead is in your meat by butchering yourself but did you get it all? Probably not.); wildlife health; and, better terminal performance. 

 

How many of you who do not use monolithic bullets for deer hunting are willing to switch? If not, why not?

 

 

Edited March 9, 2016 by Curmudgeon

[shawnhu]

You are arguing against a ban. I am arguing for people to voluntarily switch.

There are compelling reasons for deer hunters to use copper bullets: human health ( yes you can mitigate how much lead is in your meat by butchering yourself but did you get it all? Probably not.); wildlife health; and, better terminal performance.

How many of you who do not use monolithic bullets for deer hunting are willing to switch? If not, why not?

Lead has better performance at longer distances. Lead also need less velocity to do the same at shorter distances. Your research may vary.

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[DirtTime]

Isn't copper fouling worse in a barrel ( in many cases ) then lead?

[shawnhu]

Isn't copper fouling worse in a barrel ( in many cases ) then lead?

Pure lead bullets had issues with high velocity, so they started putting copper alloy jackets on them. This allowed the bullets to travel faster, hotter, down the bore. A FMJ is not much different in terms of internal and external ballistics than most of the solid copper bullets. But a solid copper core requires a lot more energy to open up vs a lead core bullet, making them unethical at long distances.

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Edited March 9, 2016 by shawnhu

[EspressoBuzz]

For me the evidence is clear from 2000 years of working with lead, since the Roman's to modern times each generation has become more aware of just how dangerous lead is to humans and wildlife. It is no mistake that the stated level for safe lead has been dropping in modern times as we learn more about it's dangers. I have switched to non lead ammo for all big game and am moving more toward non-lead for small game. Ultimately the decision is ours to make.

 

I love hunting, but I started hiking and camping first and have a great love of the outdoors given to me by my father. So I would say I am a conservationist first and a hunter second.

 

We as hunters can take the high ground and compel ammo makers to make more and cheaper non-lead ammo through our choices and ideas.

[Rattler]

I have used non lead, and would use it more, if not for the cost.  Then there's the fact I spent years developing a really accurate hunting load for my rifle that I would really resist switching from.  I also feel the greater terminal performance becomes an unnecessary expense that's not needed for whitetail hunting.

 

As far as greater demand making copper bullets less expensive, I don't think spreading the production costs out over more quantity will do much to lower prices, especially when the cost of copper keeps rising.

 

Bullet makers will be happy to sell whatever the market asks for, but they are in it to make money, not for charity.  Besides, currently there are few bullet makers producing all copper projectiles and their production capacity is limited.  Until more manufacturers got into, supply would be pinched, causing higher prices until supply caught up to demand.

[The_Real_TCIII]

Posting this pic in the hope that the disgusting one will leave my front page.

[Marion]

Who is that?

You Can't Beat My Meat!

[The_Real_TCIII]

Jeremiah Johnson. It didn't work

[Marion]

Whats the disgusting picture you were trying to remove?

You Can't Beat My Meat!

[The_Real_TCIII]

The appendix

[mike rossi]

Waste from any game animal or farm animal  I butcher is buried, What I consider to be good bones are given to my dogs.

 

I  would not consume any bloodshot meat regardless of the type of bullet that is used be it copper or lead, it is cut away and discarded.

 

Al

 

This topic is convoluted.

 

If you can trim meat to avoid every particle, is not based on fact, only what you suggest,

 

The smaller the particle, the more readily it enters the bloodstream.

 

Two issues here- human health and environmental impact.

 

A couple of you on here cite the mercury in tuna etc. That is called bioaccumulation. 

 

So if you bury some shot damaged meat in your backyard,(or landfill) and the lead enters the food chain via plants, earthworms, robins, hawk - is a long chain of events with a low probability. But that is what bioaccumulation is - it is minuscule events that cumulatively add up.

 

So what? True, unless you are a conservationist wanting to manage his own impact on the environment. If you do not care, you do not care. If you are not convinced you are not convinced. I am not convinced a lead ban would impact the ability of hunters to buy ammo or that it will damage guns. 

[mike rossi]

If you choose to use non lead ammo, that's fine.  But trying to prevent anyone else from using it by force of law, ridicule or intimidation, is totalitarian.  If venison donation programs are unhealthy because the deer are shot with lead, eliminate the programs with proof of contamination.  

 

 

 

Plenty of proof and that is exactly what is going to be legislated eventually.