If Full Inclusion Happens?

[chas0218]

Did you even read what I wrote? If it went antlerless only and with guns any buck take would not be legal. And who said to force owners?

I did and it sounded like you were still giving people the opportunity to use a bow if they wanted to take a buck. I could have taken that the wrong way.

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[Culvercreek hunt club]

I did and it sounded like you were still giving people the opportunity to use a bow if they wanted to take a buck. I could have taken that the wrong way.

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I am saying NO BUCKS. Run the guns and do it for bow and regular season. Can you get to the places that hold all the deer? no. But think of it like a pile of sand. peal the population off where you can get to them, around the edge of the pile and the center of the pile will come down. Not evenly but you can. It is very broken up property and like so many on here have said, the archery equipment is a joke to try and do this. 

[stoneam2006]

I cannot shoot a gun off-hand worth a crap. Because of that, all my stands have built in gun rests, and I have never really had a problem getting those nice horizontal surfaces to rest my gun on. Everything but the sandbags ..... lol. It's a pretty deadly arrangement. Doing the same with a crossbow would be absolutely no problem. For still hunting with a gun, I have a primos trigger bipod that works great. I can't see it being any more of a problem for a crossbow. But maybe there is something I'm not seeing that makes these things not work for crossbows.

That only works if yoy own the land yoy hunt

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[Doc]

That only works if yoy own the land yoy hunt

Almost all of my hunting is on very high pressured state land.

[Doc]

I am assuming you have ladder stands with rails or home built stands. Unfortunately hanging, climbers, and stands built between multiple trunk trees don't have them. For me that makes 43 of 50 stands un usable for a rest.. I will give you a crossbow to use out of one and even the safety harness to wear as it will try to pull you out of the tree with its weight forward design.

You admit you need a rest for a gun as off haND your a bad shot, so why not practice more off hand? Or do you do the safe thing and shorten your effective range off hand.. the crossbow will kill some deer at long distance but my compound has as well. Though the majority of hunters will kill under 30 yards on average with both.

I came down out of the trees years ago....lol. But I will say that back in the days when I did rely on treestands, I still was pretty crappy at offhand shooting (regardless of the amount of practice), and I did find ways of avoiding shooting that way. And a lot of that involved getting very resourceful at clamping rests to the stand. What I realized was that a rested gun was a whole lot more accurate than off-hand regardless of what the circumstances and hours of practice were. And amazingly enough, the crossbow is enough like a rifle that that same principle applies. Now, I will admit that with my vertical bow, I am stuck. There is no way of bracing that. But that is one of the major reasons so many people want to use a crossbow. Just like a rifle you don't have to put up with that wiggling and waving. The geometry of the weapon lends itself to bipods and other stationary rests just like a rifle.

 

[Doc]

Muzzloader in bow is a possibility and I won't deny it, but the real reason these seasons are expanding is the need to make more deer.if 50k new crossbow hunter take 10 % more deer them the dec mandate will be met so no need to expand it they all become trophy hunters and take .1% then you will see dec push for more seasons.. it pretty simple, they are giving us the hunters a job to do.if we don't accomplish it they will keep trying things to get more hunters into seasons to up the take......

No, the real reason there is more pressure to keep adding more and more unsuitable weapons into bow season is the fact that today everybody wants the time slot that used to be allocated to bows. As someone put it here, they simply want technology to make their hunting easier. I saw how serious the DEC really was about taking more deer when they totally ignored the gun season and instead went after the bowhunters to balance the deer population. The fact is that bow season was never intended by anybody to be a population-cutting hunting method. Even with crossbows, we will never rival the gun season for deer cutting efficiency. And that is because that is not what bowhunting is all about and it never was, and it never will be. So this story about how the DEC will continue to beat on bowhunters until it no longer is a bowseason has nothing to do with population control. It is simply a designed attempt at reshaping what their vision of that timeslot should look like. It is an attempt to turn bowseason into an extension of gun season. And we have the hunter mentality now to go along with that philosophy

[stoneam2006]

No, the real reason there is more pressure to keep adding more and more unsuitable weapons into bow season is the fact that today everybody wants the time slot that used to be allocated to bows. As someone put it here, they simply want technology to make their hunting easier. I saw how serious the DEC really was about taking more deer when they totally ignored the gun season and instead went after the bowhunters to balance the deer population. The fact is that bow season was never intended by anybody to be a population-cutting hunting method. Even with crossbows, we will never rival the gun season for deer cutting efficiency. And that is because that is not what bowhunting is all about and it never was, and it never will be. So this story about how the DEC will continue to beat on bowhunters until it no longer is a bowseason has nothing to do with population control. It is simply a designed attempt at reshaping what their vision of that timeslot should look like. It is an attempt to turn bowseason into an extension of gun season. And we have the hunter mentality now to go along with that philosophy

Do you hunt trad?

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[Fletch]

I will probably switch back and forth. I took one with each last year. I enjoy the early season more than which weapon I have.

 

I actually believe by including the crossbow we will lower the wounding rate significantly. I believe that there are a LOT of bow hunters that do not practice or do like a lot of gun hunters and dig out the bow and shoot the day or weekend before bow season starts. These hunters will switch over to crossbows because it is easier and be more proficient. Yes we will increase the overall amount of hunters in the woods but the ones that are not serious will not stick it out for the most part. And as usual I bet I still run into a lot more yahoos out there in gun season.

[buckman4c]

Yeah people like to "bicker". Like when bowhunters said that bow season should be for bows, there were a bunch of people who wanted to argue with that, basically saying, "were coming into your season whether you like it or not, so move the hell over". Think that's bad, wait until the muzzleloaders say the same thing to the crossbow people. No matter what you may have worked years to set up, there are always those jealous people that come along afterward and want to shove their way in. And then the bickering begins. It is inevitable. There's always somebody who wants what you have. We all know that there are a whole lot of rifle hunters that would just love to have access to the bow season, and someday will be coming for it. And then, once again, you will hear "bickering". Get used to it. I won't end until there are no more "special seasons".

Doc,

I'm used to all the bickering, never said I wasn't. Just making a point that bickering among ourselves accomplishes nothing more

than weakness in solidarity. With the special interest groups that outnumber us considerably, we should concern ourselves more with

protecting our sport. Increased opportunity for hunters to pursue our number one animal "should" be a no brainer when it comes to

supporting one another.

It will not surprise me if muzzleloader and rifle seasons are eventually included during or around the rut in Pa or any other

State that doesn't right now. I would vote for it, join in on the expanded opportunity, put my bow away and pull out the muzzy or

rifle. Why fight it when you can participate like anyone else??

I'll answer that....because rifle hunters are slobs, because muzzleloader hunters aren't as accurate, because deer will be

slaughtered, because more "trophy" bucks will be killed, etc. etc.. What hunters who don't like something are really saying is

"hunters are an irresponsible and selfish group". Well isn't that fantastic ammunition for outsiders who hate our sport?

Look, I won't argue there's a right way and a wrong way to conduct business if you will. In Pa, we are fortunate to have a game

commission which is solely responsible for managing wildlife. If the game commission (other entity in other States) can show that

expanded opportunity won't negatively impact the wildlife we pursue than I see no reason why additional seasons or methods can't

be included. We've (Pa) seen this in action concerning deer specifically. Since 2001, Pa has done some fairly radical things with

seasons and bag limits. However, they have also made adjustments along the way to meet certain levels of sustainability. Not

everyone agrees in totality and this is expected but overall there has been more opportunity through method and seasons which isn't

what hunters really disagree with. Hunters in Pa, for the most part, disagree more about how many doe they think are being killed inparticular areas.

Edited April 6, 2016 by buckman4c

[Doc]

Do you hunt trad?

 

I already have admitted that I was on the wrong end of that argument back when the compound bows were first admitted. Yes, I was one of those that thought the compound was a good idea. Only my mistake was that I didn't really recognize it as a precedent that would lead to a continuing evolution of corruption of the sport of bowhunting. Well, unlike many, I do learn from past mistakes. I say a line has to be drawn in the sand somewhere. When we start saying that shoulder fired, stabilized, constantly drawn, weapons are the same as bows, it seems to me that we have crossed over that line. When we encounter a weapon that uses none of the shooting forms and disciplines of vertical bows, that is a step too far. Those that shoot bows understand stance, back tension, stable bow arms, consistent grip, follow through, and all the other rigid and unforgiving requirements of shooting any vertical bow. We understand that crossbows have none of that. The methods of holding, firing and the disciplines required for any vertical bow are consistently the same and have absolutely nothing in common with a crossbow which has a shooting form and method that incorporates exactly those of a gun.

 

Ha-ha-ha ...... I just realized that just like this whole thread, has already been argued a few years ago and nobody is listening to each other now just like back then. Just like TV we are involved in re-runs. I believe everything has been said on this subject that can be said..... Seriously, when we start repeating ourselves, perhaps it is becoming obvious that further discussion has no point. Minds are now made up. and the future of bowhunting will be whatever it becomes. Just like those old-timers that argued against compounds years ago and were eventually proven correct about the precedents that are set and it is now too late to effect any change. This new precedent that carries the corruption of bow season one more huge step forward is already set in stone as is the future of bowhunting. We are now just waiting for the next gadget to invade the season and call itself a bow. Or perhaps the whole façade will eventually be dropped, and the whole idea of a special bow season will be recognized as bogus and be dropped entirely.

[Doc]

Doc,

I'm used to all the bickering, never said I wasn't. Just making a point that bickering among ourselves accomplishes nothing more

than weakness in solidarity. With the special interest groups that outnumber us considerably, we should concern ourselves more with

protecting our sport. Increased opportunity for hunters to pursue our number one animal "should" be a no brainer when it comes to

supporting one another.

We bicker because we strive for perfection. Anyone who believes that hunters cannot or should not disagree doesn't understand the concept of discussion, negotiation, and eventual resolution. Our methods and attitudes vary as does any other gathering of similar interests, and guess what.......we don't all march in lockstep and refuse to discuss some of the thorny issues that confront us. That wouldn't and shouldn't be human nature. Those whose opinions and passions wave around whichever way the popular wind blows are not doing themselves any good or the sport of hunting any good. And they will be of the least value when it comes to the fight against the anti-hunters. They are the weak-sisters who have no opinions of there own. They are the ones that lack any courage of their convictions. They sit silently and passively never concerning themselves about the issues that confront us. Yes they make for nice cordial and friendly and passive forum members but contribute nothing to the health and defense of hunting or the resolution of issues that confront the future of hunting. I worry more about a hunting community that would simply roll over on every issue in the effort to fake unity and solidarity. Are they people that you could count on as aggressive fighters in defense of hunting? I really don't think so.

 

[Jaeger]

I've so far avoided stepping into this fire and even reading it, but I've read just the OP and here would be my choices.

 

I'd stick to hunting with my recurves and longbows during the early season, I just enjoy them and get too much satisfaction from hunting with them to toss them aside for my crossbow.

 

I'd turn to my crossbow during the last week or two of the regular bow/early bow season if I really wanted to put some doe in the freezer before the regular rifle season begins.

 

I'd also keep the crossbow on hand during the regular rifle season and late muzzleloader season for any deer coming past the house, a target of opportunity if you will.  The neighbor's are within 500ft and even if they weren't, they are elderly and I will not shoot a gun off next to our houses.

 

Just my choices based on my situation.  I do not travel to hunt, I have my landlords land 270 acres out back to hunt.

[Bowguy 1]

The thoughts of some gun hunters converting n changing things some times is real. In my state you can't even hunt some places cause of the crossbow drives. Yes it's their right but others equally. If Id never allow my hunting to affect you Id love to see that both ways.

The cocking the crossbow thing is not correct that you can do w bad shoulder they sell cranks to pull string for you.

Crossbows do have pros n cons. I don't think they'll affect things much because of the cons as long as they don't allow bait like other states do cause that negates much of em.

What guys may not be thinking is a gun hunter mindset is different than a bowhunter, getting 20 yards from a deer isn't instantly easy so they'd have to learn just like others.