Antler restrictions success? ?

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I know you want to believe that and I would have to agree with the part I highlighted...though not everyone that wants deer meat shoots the first buck they see...When they know they have some time and some doe around But ,and I'm one of these admittedly...If it came down to no meat and time running out...no doe to be seen or cooperating if a basket 6pt showed up I'd drop it. I hunt dang near every day from Oct through Nov...shots heard drop like a rock after the first 3 days. Then are  few there after. In relative terms each weekend after the first one is quite. Shorten the season and it would sound like one of the battles from a war movie the first week end. Guaranteed brown down would increase significantly...It's  just  how people think.

Nah i dont know. After hunting Letchworth for 20 years and seeing all the City Folk that come to the park and blast away on opening morning at anything that moves tells me its already Brown and Down for many down there. They are there to fill tags regardless of size.Many fawns hanging in the trees by lunch time opening day speaks volumes. 

[Larry]

Just wondering how much basting away goes on in the park with 700 permits on the east side and 300 on the west side. There is also an antler restriction in the park. Granted the AR was put in place to increase the antlerless harvest. I do have to emit that I don’t hunt there on opening day I only hunt the ML season and have scored with a nice size buck or doe 7years in a row. Sometimes shooting a doe out of as many as 20 deer.

[dbHunterNY]

My number one request to make NY a better deer hunting state- have actual and accurate data on deer populations and the take not the wet dream math formula that is currently embraced by those who market the numbers (and their actions) the most. Quality aging methods and stats would also be sweet to see the truth on. #2 cite the chit out of all the cheating scumbags out there (poachers, trespassers, tag borrowers, baiters, etc). 2b would be do away with the youth seasons but primarily for the cheating listed in 2. #3 survey all hunters and use that as the majority basis for hunting season delegations and feedback. No more select group stuff or the DEC knows so much more that they can't take your opinion.

At least those are me three at the moment.

The gun season is ridiculously long but it's timing and bag limits hurt the herd more than anything. Just my ideas thiugh

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Just an FYI

#1 - DEC and QDMA here in NY are meeting to try and help the data situation and get more actual harvest data, including data they don't focus on as much at the moment including weight and things that reflect fawn recruitment.  DEC meeting with other groups too supposedly.  they'd get better quality aging too that will help trending population data.  no more staffer sticking a finger in a deer mouth and saying "based on the sharpness of teeth it's 15.5 yrs old."  deer that old have no lingual crests.  all premolars and molars are flattened from wear.  DEC deserves an atta boy for this data improvement effort as long as they follow through, which I think they will.

 

#2 - QDMA is working with legislators on increasing poaching penalities S4727B.  no more repeat offenders and petty fines.  more progress made yesterday at the capitol.  schedule tight but it's moving at a rate to be signed into law by this fall/winter when it'll do its work.

 

#2b - if the poaching bill goes through.  logically it'll prevent as many occurrences that ECO's need spend time on which will leave more time to look out for stuff like that.  although I think the youth season should stay.  I'd rather not take opportunity away from all of them, only because of a few (insert a word) feel the need to use kids to cheat the system.

[Larry]

Every year we compile deer harvest estimates by state in our Whitetail Report and release them to the hunting public, and every year we receive multiple responses that go something like this:

“Those numbers can’t be accurate. I’ve never been asked how many deer I killed.”

It’s a common and perennial response, so here’s an explanation of how your state agency can have an accurate estimate of the deer harvest even if they didn’t talk to you, examine your deer, or require you to tag it. It’s possible through the science of random sampling.

Some states may be small enough or have a short enough deer season to physically count and examine every deer at mandatory check stations. But wildlife agencies in most states, like my home state of Georgia for example, cannot do this. Lengthening seasons, large land areas and massive numbers of hunters make it impractical. Instead, they use a survey method – usually a phone or mail survey – to randomly sample hunters and estimate things like days spent afield, harvest numbers, and species hunted. To get statistically accurate results with low margins of error, all you have to do is survey a large enough sample. Wildlife agencies do not have to survey anywhere near 100 percent of hunters to get a valid estimate of the harvest, an estimate that is more than adequate for tracking trends and making statewide management decisions. In fact, you might be surprised how few it takes to get a sound estimate.

Using an online random survey calculator, I ran my own numbers for Georgia, which has a population of around 250,000 resident and non-resident deer hunters. I would only need to randomly survey about 2,500 hunters (1 percent of the population) to get results with a margin of error as low as 2 percent, and be 95 percent confident in that error rate. Try the calculator for yourself. You’ll see that the smaller the population you are surveying, the higher the percentage you must survey to maintain accuracy. If your population includes a total of 100 people, you will have to survey nearly all of them to get the same level of accuracy you can get by surveying only 1 percent of Georgia deer hunters.

So, if my home state obtains random survey results from 2,500 hunters, they have an excellent idea how many deer were killed (Actually, Georgia WRD provides their survey information online, and I learned they annually survey exactly that number: 2,500 deer hunters).

No, they do not know the exact number of deer killed. No state knows that, but they don’t need to. They can get close enough to make statewide management decisions. More importantly, if the survey is conducted the same way each year, they get an excellent idea of trends in deer harvest. Knowing whether the deer harvest is climbing or falling over a period of years, and by how much, is more useful and important than knowing the exact number that were killed in any given year.

It’s important to note the word random throughout this discussion. People included in the survey must be chosen in a completely random manner or the results will not be accurate. Allowing respondents to choose to participate in a survey is one of the best ways to destroy the accuracy of results. In an open survey, people with an axe to grind (like those who aren’t happy about their recent deer hunting success) are more likely to participate so they can make sure the agency knows they are angry. People who are satisfied with their experience aren’t near as motivated to speak up through a survey. . FROM THE QDMA WEB SITE

Edited May 26, 2016 by Larry

[G-Man]

Every year we compile deer harvest estimates by state in our Whitetail Report and release them to the hunting public, and every year we receive multiple responses that go something like this:

“Those numbers can’t be accurate. I’ve never been asked how many deer I killed.”

It’s a common and perennial response, so here’s an explanation of how your state agency can have an accurate estimate of the deer harvest even if they didn’t talk to you, examine your deer, or require you to tag it. It’s possible through the science of random sampling.

Some states may be small enough or have a short enough deer season to physically count and examine every deer at mandatory check stations. But wildlife agencies in most states, like my home state of Georgia for example, cannot do this. Lengthening seasons, large land areas and massive numbers of hunters make it impractical. Instead, they use a survey method – usually a phone or mail survey – to randomly sample hunters and estimate things like days spent afield, harvest numbers, and species hunted. To get statistically accurate results with low margins of error, all you have to do is survey a large enough sample. Wildlife agencies do not have to survey anywhere near 100 percent of hunters to get a valid estimate of the harvest, an estimate that is more than adequate for tracking trends and making statewide management decisions. In fact, you might be surprised how few it takes to get a sound estimate.

Using an online random survey calculator, I ran my own numbers for Georgia, which has a population of around 250,000 resident and non-resident deer hunters. I would only need to randomly survey about 2,500 hunters (1 percent of the population) to get results with a margin of error as low as 2 percent, and be 95 percent confident in that error rate. Try the calculator for yourself. You’ll see that the smaller the population you are surveying, the higher the percentage you must survey to maintain accuracy. If your population includes a total of 100 people, you will have to survey nearly all of them to get the same level of accuracy you can get by surveying only 1 percent of Georgia deer hunters.

So, if my home state obtains random survey results from 2,500 hunters, they have an excellent idea how many deer were killed (Actually, Georgia WRD provides their survey information online, and I learned they annually survey exactly that number: 2,500 deer hunters).

No, they do not know the exact number of deer killed. No state knows that, but they don’t need to. They can get close enough to make statewide management decisions. More importantly, if the survey is conducted the same way each year, they get an excellent idea of trends in deer harvest. Knowing whether the deer harvest is climbing or falling over a period of years, and by how much, is more useful and important than knowing the exact number that were killed in any given year.

It’s important to note the word random throughout this discussion. People included in the survey must be chosen in a completely random manner or the results will not be accurate. Allowing respondents to choose to participate in a survey is one of the best ways to destroy the accuracy of results. In an open survey, people with an axe to grind (like those who aren’t happy about their recent deer hunting success) are more likely to participate so they can make sure the agency knows they are angry. People who are satisfied with their experience aren’t near as motivated to speak up through a survey. . FROM THE QDMA WEB SITE

I know their random sampling is way.off, i,can look at town by town take and for.my.town according to their number I take 10% of town kill off 275 acres.. when the town is 7.miles wide and 14 long.. that Is way off.. no doubt about it.. I know just by talking to the camps on my block they take the entire town "numbers" on about 640 acres . (This is 1 street) and the town has a lot more hunters , so I do not know how or why they think their numbers are close at all...

[dbHunterNY]

Every year we compile deer harvest estimates by state in our Whitetail Report and release them to the hunting public, and every year we receive multiple responses that go something like this..... FROM THE QDMA WEB SITE

 

...no disclaimer at the end?

 

https://www.qdma.com/articles/how-do-state-wildlife-agencies-estimate-deer-harvest

 

it's true though when coming up with statewide harvest numbers and some other things, you don't need to get count of every deer.  as that article written by Lindsay states, smaller sample sizes require more surveyed hunters.  if you want to better understand trends or get certain data from WMU's where any concerns are.  that surveyed number goes up significantly.  also there's a focus on getting better data.  poor data in is just amplified along with the good data all the same.  although not completely needed in some situations, nothing is better than more actual accurate data.  the current system isn't broken like some on here think.  we still have deer every year.  there's room for improvement though and from what I know it's being addressed.

[dbHunterNY]

I know their random sampling is way.off, i,can look at town by town take and for.my.town according to their number I take 10% of town kill off 275 acres.. when the town is 7.miles wide and 14 long.. that Is way off.. no doubt about it.. I know just by talking to the camps on my block they take the entire town "numbers" on about 640 acres . (This is 1 street) and the town has a lot more hunters , so I do not know how or why they think their numbers are close at all...

 

that's the problem....

 

when looking at the picture state wide errors like this get dissolved a bit and turn into a small bump in the road.  overall everything is still okay, but your area gets skewed and screwed when those numbers are used for management purposes and maybe things like tag allocations for the following year when the task force gets together with their assorted wish lists of deer expected or not expected to be taken.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Just wondering how much basting away goes on in the park with 700 permits on the east side and 300 on the west side. There is also an antler restriction in the park. Granted the AR was put in place to increase the antlerless harvest. I do have to emit that I don’t hunt there on opening day I only hunt the ML season and have scored with a nice size buck or doe 7years in a row. Sometimes shooting a doe out of as many as 20 deer.

500 on the west side. Ar has only been in for 4 years i believe. Point being that hunters that want Ar will wail for that 1 buck or take a different buck but it will be a good one. To shorten the season would not push those hunters to blast away because they feel the pinch. They will still wait it out. The other hunters that dont care about Ar will still blast away at a shorter season just as they do now.

 

Plus with a shorter season there will be more adult mature bucks around so it will be easier to take one even with a short season.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

that's the problem....

 

when looking at the picture state wide errors like this get dissolved a bit and turn into a small bump in the road.  overall everything is still okay, but your area gets skewed and screwed when those numbers are used for management purposes and maybe things like tag allocations for the following year when the task force gets together with their assorted wish lists of deer expected or not expected to be taken.

What number do you think they pull out of the sky to cover for all the tags filled that never get called in? I know piles of people that never report. They fill their whole families tags and never report. DEC and QDMA can say what they like but when it comes to numbers its a big guess year after year. It also shows many years how screwed up their number is.

[dbHunterNY]

What number do you think they pull out of the sky to cover for all the tags filled that never get called in? I know piles of people that never report. They fill their whole families tags and never report. DEC and QDMA can say what they like but when it comes to numbers its a big guess year after year. It also shows many years how screwed up their number is.

 

I can only speak for my area to an extent.  how the heck would I know what deer were taken in your area.  I don't go there.  same as some other areas in NY.  can only work with others to get more and accurate data for my area to DEC.  same as others elsewhere in the state might do.  it was a general article from the QDMA and didn't at all reference NY and our specific situations.  did you not read the disclaimer at the end that it wasn't implying all states do it well enough?  I think we've all come to the consensus that there's room for improvement with data end of things here.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I can only speak for my area to an extent.  how the heck would I know what deer were taken in your area.  I don't go there.  same as some other areas in NY.  can only work with others to get more and accurate data for my area to DEC.  same as others elsewhere in the state might do.  it was a general article from the QDMA and didn't at all reference NY and our specific situations.  did you not read the disclaimer at the end that it wasn't implying all states do it well enough?  I think we've all come to the consensus that there's room for improvement with data end of things here.

I would guess most states are the same unless you have to check in deer and return unused tags. All a bunch of guessing. I would like to know if they break it down,in what sections  or just one big guess?.

[Larry]

First here in NY we have a 43% report rate on our harvest that’s a lot better than a 1% survey. They also do deer check stations and do processor checks if you ever got your deer back from the processor and the tag has a hole punched through it. That processor was check while your deer was there. Just on the 43% report rate that is 87278 deer that you know for sure were harvested.
Now seeing you know their numbers are wrong. Now the burden of proof is on you to prove their numbers are not with in a 2% margin of error. So now show us your data and the method you us to get your right numbers.

[G-Man]

First here in NY we have a 43% report rate on our harvest that’s a lot better than a 1% survey. They also do deer check stations and do processor checks if you ever got your deer back from the processor and the tag has a hole punched through it. That processor was check while your deer was there. Just on the 43% report rate that is 87278 deer that you know for sure were harvested.

Now seeing you know their numbers are wrong. Now the burden of proof is on you to prove their numbers are not with in a 2% margin of error. So now show us your data and the method you us to get your right numbers.

State wide it may average out, but the state is not managed as a state..it's managed by wmu, northern,southern zones and long island... that is the problem! ! Now break each zone down by wmu and the problem becomes bigger as areas with in the wmu may be wiped out but it still managed as whole wmu

. Perhaps smaller wmu would help.. but that means more staff and for the hunter you need to know exact.boundaries to apply..

[Larry]

There are over 90 WMU’s in the state how many more do you think we need? There are parts of 3 WMU’s going through the town of Cuba 9P(4151), 9W(1464) and 9X(1226) then they brake down by town 202 harvest how small do you want the brake down to be? They do break the harvest down in WMU’s to deer harvested per sq. mile. that number is an average.Forgot to put this in what do you mean by areas being wiped out?

Edited May 27, 2016 by Larry

[Larry]

still haven't seen your data.

[growalot]

Speaking of date I find some of the town takes of Adult  11/2 and up buck to the total numbers ...interesting in each county especially when looking at the highest buck takes to totals and those numbers compared to the county spread some towns took well over half to 3/4 of their  total deer as adult buck ...in Non AR areas...Also the colored charts they have showing changes from 2014-15 takes in AR areas and number over all compared to non....

 

http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/2015deerrpt.pdf

 

 

[growalot]

data not date

[G-Man]

There are over 90 WMU’s in the state how many more do you think we need? There are parts of 3 WMU’s going through the town of Cuba 9P(4151), 9W(1464) and 9X(1226) then they brake down by town 202 harvest how small do you want the brake down to be? They do break the harvest down in WMU’s to deer harvested per sq. mile. that number is an average.Forgot to put this in what do you mean by areas being wiped out?

the problem is they are applying a state average to town take when and wmu take..my property is in 2 towns and 2 counties and I try to make sure that each deer is reported in proper county and town as the previous post of yours shows they need to do more surveys of smaller areas this is not being done as reporting numbers and equations are calculated at state level..so by the margin of error increasing by several factors by the time it brakes down into town size.. 2% at state level does not equal 2 % at local level and that's what I mean by areas being wiped out.. goals are set by wmu and one town my be way over quota while one is way under but the average may be 2% error.. while one is 10% over and other 3 or four are -20% under goal.. but total numbers average 2% across wmu...

[DirtTime]

So what about the hunts people do in other countries? Pretty sure people who go rhino hunting aren't eating the meat. Most of the companies who offer this type of hunt say it's "trophy hunting", not 'exotic'.

It's difficult to reform a word people associate with exotic hunting in other countries, or that is used by most guides in the USA to describe the hunt.

I knew a few people who went to other states to hunt whitetail bucks and got ticked off when they were told they had to pass a nice buck because they paid for basic service and that buck was a trophy.

 

[gjs4]

Everyone of you quoting numbers; where did your data come from? Oh...

No one sees deer, dec says they're there in prolific numbers but it was warm so your observations don't count and we know how many living does there are based off the number of bucks killed within our magic boundaries...... Ugh..... Are you guys really that gullible?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[gjs4]

How's the turkey population doing?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[stubby68]

How's the turkey population doing?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

              so so. But  I'm hunting by the numbers and there not adding up.

[gjs4]

My point exactly .... Mismanaged (due to not managing) into a critical low

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Everyone of you quoting numbers; where did your data come from? Oh...

No one sees deer, dec says they're there in prolific numbers but it was warm so your observations don't count and we know how many living does there are based off the number of bucks killed within our magic boundaries...... Ugh..... Are you guys really that gullible?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yup thats why i dont play some;s Data game on here. Its a fact that there are a pile of hunters who do not report their kill and surly do not report their kills on the kids and wives tags. Its all a guessing game for them and has been for years. Just like Letchworth were you have to send in your kill results or you dont come back. I am sure some of those numbers are off a bit. But not alot.

[stubby68]

     But, But it's  in the numbers ,they give us the numbers. We should live by their numbers. Our boots on the ground observations can not compare to their sit at the desk and guess approach can it.