lead in ammunition

[erussell]

I wonder how the settlers ever stayed alive shooting all that game with pure lead ball out of a front stuffer? i would think the lead from a modern centerfire projectile would be minute compared.

[Curmudgeon]

I wonder how the settlers ever stayed alive shooting all that game with pure lead ball out of a front stuffer? i would think the lead from a modern centerfire projectile would be minute compared.

 

erussell - You obviously are a late comer to the conversation. Muzzle loaders and high-powered rifles are apples and oranges. The issue is fragmentation and how far fragments travel in the carcass.

 

[mike rossi]

. I have a better chance of hitting the Powerball Lottery than getting lead sickness from  venison I have eaten.

 

​So do you think more people have won the lottery or more people have health issues directly related to lead? 

 

Edited June 27, 2016 by mike rossi

[airedale]

I have seen and heard of plenty of powerball winners but have never seen or heard anything with 100% certainty where a person who ate game meat shot with a lead based bullet in the hundreds of years they have been used that got sick from doing so and neither has anyone else. Pretty good odds in my book!

 

Refined sugar is probably one of the most destructive substances Humans consume, it causes more maladys to our bodies than just about anything over the short and long run. If you health crusaders are serious wanting to take up a cause finding a solution to a health concern this would be a good one and it is actually real. Just saying!!

 

Al

Edited June 27, 2016 by airedale

[mike rossi]

One last comment on this for me:

 

Just because the reference level is 5 micrograms does not mean  a pattern showing an  ELEVATION in venison eaters  ( of .03 above non venison eaters) is not significant. Suggesting that a measurable pattern is insignificant is misleading and irresponsible.. 

Edited June 27, 2016 by mike rossi

[Four Season Whitetail's]

 

Related to lead and related to lead from hunter killed with lead bullets...Apples and Oranges.

[EspressoBuzz]

I have seen and heard of plenty of powerball winners but have never seen or heard anything with 100% certainty where a person who ate game meat shot with a lead based bullet in the hundreds of years they have been used that got sick from doing so and neither has anyone else. Pretty good odds in my book!

 

Refined sugar is probably one of the most destructive substances Humans consume, it causes more maladys to our bodies than just about anything over the short and long run. If you health crusaders are serious wanting to take up a cause finding a solution to a health concern this would be a good one and it is actually real. Just saying!!

 

Al

 

Yes! Let's go! We need a new nanny state target. Cause the Bloomberg soda law didn't create the stir here it should have the first time around.

[Doc]

I love these research wars. We all know exactly which studies are correct .... right?

 

Generally speaking, when people try to bury me in B.S., I usually attempt to rely on logic and experience for clues as to which one might be right. For example, when is the last time I've read the cause of anyone's death listed as being lead poisoning from consuming lead-shot game meat? ....... Never. When did I ever read about hunters dropping over from ingesting lead bullet fragments? ...... Never. We have been consuming game shot with lead for centuries, and I have never heard of an epidemic being declared because of lead poisoning from hunting sources. Problems for certain birds? ..... Likely because there is credible physical evidence. But let's not go off the deep end now by trying to convince hunters that if they don't switch to non-lead bullets, they are all doomed. History (and lots of it) says that notion is not credible. Don't cheapen the legitimate argument by trying to expand it into the ridiculous.

 

 

[vlywaterman]

Absolutely true Doc, I haven't heard of any hunters hunters dropping dead of lead consumption either, well except for a few unfortunate people who got pellets caught in their appendix, but when was the last time you heard of anyone dying of lead poisoning period? Even in Flint, how many people got sick? Look at the symptoms of lead poisoning(again). Most birds don't die of lead, they have high lead levels and they starve or crash.

There is no known safe BLL. Exposure to lead can seriously harm a child’s health. Millions of children are being exposed to lead in their homes, increasing their risks for

• damage to the brain and nervous system,
• slowed growth and development,
• learning and behavior problems (e.g., reduced IQ, ADHD, juvenile delinquency, and criminal behavior), and
• hearing and speech problems.

[airedale]

Take care of your game meat properly and the lead consumption issue is insignificant!

 

Al

[vlywaterman]

or use non-lead ammunition and not worry about this at all. Or use lead, and not worry about this at all. 

[EspressoBuzz]

I got it now! It's gotta kill you to be valid! Even when it turns you into a drooling idiot that don't count cause you can still show up and vote not to ban lead.

[Curmudgeon]

Take care of your game meat properly and the lead consumption issue is insignificant!

 

Al

 

Al - I agree with you on this. You personally control your meat and in doing so can keep most fragments out of the meat and thus reduce lead levels. The last deer shot here with lead ammo was a nice buck quartering towards the hunter. He took out a front shoulder. We buried that part of the deer.

 

Because you are aware, you take those precautions. However, how many people do this? If they are not aware of the fragmentation/lead issue, they will not. Many people send their meat to commercial processors where they are taking their chances. Even those with good shot placement and those who use non-lead bullets may not get their own meat back.

 

This is not a discussion about "lead ammunition". It is a discussion only about lead ammunition used for hunting, and the discussion has focused almost completely on deer hunting, venison and cervid gut piles. Of the ammunition all of you own and use, how many rounds are used to actually kill deer?

 

Edited June 28, 2016 by Curmudgeon

[airedale]

I got it now! It's gotta kill you to be valid! Even when it turns you into a drooling idiot that don't count cause you can still show up and vote not to ban lead.

 Perfect example of Doc's quote

 

 "cheapening a legitimate argument by trying to expand it into the ridiculous"

[stubby68]

               I injured my knee 6 months ago. Dislocated knee and broke fibula. The Dr at the time said leg was not broken, only tendon damage. I told him that it felt like bone was broken. II have a screwed up back ruptured disks and more. This Dr knew of my back problems. He said that the pain in lower leg was from my back. I told him no never had that paid till injury. He took x rays and tests said nope he was right i was wrong. I went to another Dr. the new Dr found a break in lower leg. It was broke length wise with the grain. Guess I was right and first dr was wrong.

 

               I told you all this to bring up a point. If you only look for one thing that causes a problem and that which you are looking for is known, then you will only find that known cause. Were there other things in the birds or humans system that could have caused the same or similer problem and it was not found or considered because the people doing the testing only wanted to find lead as the problem. Just as the first dr only wanted my back to be the problem. Just a thought

[jjb4900]

what about lead in your pencil, is that any good???

[EspressoBuzz]

How old are you? Lead hasn't been used in pencils...since...NEVER!

 

"Prior to 1565 (some sources say as early as 1500), a large deposit of graphite was discovered on the approach to Grey Knottsfrom the hamlet of Seathwaite in Borrowdale parish, Cumbria, England.^[4][5][6][7] This particular deposit of graphite was extremely pure and solid, and it could easily be sawn into sticks. This remains the only large-scale deposit of graphite ever found in this solid form.^[8] Chemistry was in its infancy and the substance was thought to be a form of lead. Consequently, it was called plumbago (Latin for "lead ore").^[9][10] Many people have the misconception that the graphite in the pencil is lead,^[11] and the black core of pencils is still referred to as lead even though it never contained the element lead"

Edited June 28, 2016 by EspressoBuzz

[jjb4900]

I hate when a good joke goes to waste......

put lead in one's pencil

Enhance or restore sexual vigor, as in Try one of these hot peppers; that'llput lead in your pencil. This phrase, a euphemism for causing an erection, isconsidered far more vulgar than the contemporary synonym put hair onone's chest, alluding to a secondary male sex characteristic. [; c. 1900 ]

 

[DirtTime]

 

I hate when a good joke goes to waste......

put lead in one's pencil

Enhance or restore sexual vigor, as in Try one of these hot peppers; that'llput lead in your pencil. This phrase, a euphemism for causing an erection, isconsidered far more vulgar than the contemporary synonym put hair onone's chest, alluding to a secondary male sex characteristic. [; c. 1900 ]

 

Well, seeing is I have heard some guys refer to women as 'birds', I would say this would be bad as well.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

 

I hate when a good joke goes to waste......

put lead in one's pencil

Enhance or restore sexual vigor, as in Try one of these hot peppers; that'llput lead in your pencil. This phrase, a euphemism for causing an erection, isconsidered far more vulgar than the contemporary synonym put hair onone's chest, alluding to a secondary male sex characteristic. [; c. 1900 ]

 

Much better than the last 3-4 pages.

[Doc]

 

Absolutely true Doc, I haven't heard of any hunters hunters dropping dead of lead consumption either, well except for a few unfortunate people who got pellets caught in their appendix, but when was the last time you heard of anyone dying of lead poisoning period? Even in Flint, how many people got sick? Look at the symptoms of lead poisoning(again). Most birds don't die of lead, they have high lead levels and they starve or crash.

There is no known safe BLL. Exposure to lead can seriously harm a child’s health. Millions of children are being exposed to lead in their homes, increasing their risks for

• damage to the brain and nervous system,
• slowed growth and development,
• learning and behavior problems (e.g., reduced IQ, ADHD, juvenile delinquency, and criminal behavior), and
• hearing and speech problems.

 

So has anyone who has eaten lead-shot wild game noticed any staggering and slurred speech and  a propensity to say "duh" a whole lot, or criminal behavior beyond traffic infractions. Maybe there is documentation somewhere that hunters have all become drooling, stumbling, idiots who keep banging off of trees, I don't know. Frankly, I have eaten my share or critters killed with lead bullets, and have not noticed any of those symptoms. But then maybe I am so far gone that I am incapable of recognizing the symptoms. I do remember a few occasions in my younger years when some of that happened, but I usually blamed that on what I had been drinking that night. Who knows maybe that was really the lead kicking in.

 

Seriously, I can understand those worrying about the effects on birds wanting to scare hunters into believing that using lead bullets is a health hazard and will turn them into a stumbling idiot, but don't get too upset if people have a hard time believing it. After all we do have a lot of living, breathing, well adjusted, physically functional, well educated, properly acting hunters around that do actually eat everything they shoot (lead bullets or not).

[vlywaterman]

When I taught Earth Science I would always tell my students that there is still a "Flat Earth Society", and just came across this: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/jun/28/why-bad-ideas-refuse-die  It is a very long read, but is quite compelling as to why we are even having this discussion of which I am grateful for the opportunity to have and wish more people would be reading.

 

[airedale]

All it takes is a little diligence and extra care when preparing any game meat for consumption. Personally I do not want any kind of metal in my meat including lead, jacket gilding metal, copper, bronze, steel shot, hevi shot or bismuth shot. It is not that hard to remove the vast majority of these projectile metals from your meat with a little work and I believe most hunters do this. Any meat that I suspect having metal in it that I can not remove is discarded. 

 

I think the big culprit in those lead contaminated findings is the meat having been ground up. There are apparently some with a waste not want not attitude that will try to utilize every scrap of meat they can from their animals and this is where the problems most likely come from. That unappetizing meat from around the wound channel that should be discarded run through a grinder along with other tough cuts comes out looking great and I am sure even tastes great. Now if there is any metal in that meat from around wound channel guess what, having been run through a grinder contaminates the whole batch. Anyone that has made sausage  knows how all the spices are distributed throughout the batch after having been run through a grinder a couple of times.

 

Bottom line is that any meat suspected to contain any metal that can not be removed must be tossed and I do think it is done by the majority of hunters,  if those simple guidelines are followed then any metal contamination if any in the meat that happens to be consumed will be so small that it would insignificant health wise.

 

Al

 

 

Edited June 29, 2016 by airedale

[mike rossi]

When I taught Earth Science I would always tell my students that there is still a "Flat Earth Society", and just came across this: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/jun/28/why-bad-ideas-refuse-die  It is a very long read, but is quite compelling as to why we are even having this discussion of which I am grateful for the opportunity to have and wish more people would be reading.

 

 

Part of the problem is you are not dealing with high or medium functioning children or a captive audience. You indicate experience with students, but how long have you been interfacing with sportsmen? 

 

This is not going to fixed with legislation and its not going to be fixed with education. The only solution is offering bribes in the form of ammo subsidies. I suggest you and your cronies direct your efforts to that. You can argue logically and  put out every study ever done and it will not override what they believe. Make the good stuff cheaper and they will buy it. You dont even have to mention facts - all that does is politicize the matter. All you need to explain is the price, with some free range time to sight in with it. 

[Curmudgeon]

This is not going to fixed with legislation and its not going to be fixed with education. The only solution is offering bribes in the form of ammo subsidies. I suggest you and your cronies direct your efforts to that. You can argue logically and  put out every study ever done and it will not override what they believe. Make the good stuff cheaper and they will buy it. You dont even have to mention facts - all that does is politicize the matter. All you need to explain is the price, with some free range time to sight in with it. 

 

A really good point. I would like to find a way to make this work. Finding the money is not the greatest obstacle.