lead in ammunition

[DirtTime]

13 minutes ago, vlywaterman said:

Thanks for putting me on the spot,,,, no, I haven't been, but I will now. I can list a bunch of excuses, but that is all they are. 

So you just admitted to being a hypocrite! You started this thread, way to go.

Here's a suggestion, just let this thread fade away. 

[Dinsdale]

27 minutes ago, vlywaterman said:

  There is now a new firm called Rio in Marshall, Texas that produces nontoxic bismuth shot on a large scale. 

Rio isn't exactly new......Spanish make that has been around a long time.  Same parent company owns Eley brand ammo, bought a ex military facility in Texas.

[vlywaterman]

no, not a hypocrite, just honest, I wasn't as concerned with lead shot, and the amount of grouse hunting I do these days is pretty slim,,, it is not the same as the hundreds of fragments one sees in rifle bullets, even if you hunt with lead slugs, it is not nearly as bad as high velocity rounds. I'm not leaving toxic gut piles in the field either.

As for the post fading away, some new information has come out, a lot of good discussion has happened. And back a few posts, someone was touting the virtues of the butchering a good hunter is capable of, which does lower the risks. And if one is ok with an 8% risk of feeding lead to you family,,, I can't argue with that, it is a pretty low risk. But I personally wouldn't do it.

[vlywaterman]

I have not shot any of those rounds, any thoughts on them? someone said they are actually less expensive than lead,,,, is that true?

[Dinsdale]

39 minutes ago, vlywaterman said:

I have not shot any of those rounds, any thoughts on them? someone said they are actually less expensive than lead,,,, is that true?

I shoot some bismuth in a older gun not rated for steel shot in the older barrels, considered a safe alternative for the barrels.

Less expensive.....LOL.....I guess a Mercedes is cheaper than a Rolls Royce.

 

 

Edited September 15, 2016 by Dinsdale

[DirtTime]

You are a hypocrite! You started this thread, people went to war on it, defending how they feel and what they believe. Now you say you use lead ammo but won't any more? Not only are you a hypocrite, but you led people to believe you had valid point to make. You had an agenda, and you crapped on it yourself. Please, do yourself a favor. Let this thread fade away. 

[DirtTime]

3 minutes ago, Dinsdale said:

I shoot some bismuth in a older gun not rated for steel, considered a safe alternative for the barrels.

Less expensive.....LOL.....I guess a Mercedes is cheaper than a Rolls Royce.

 

 

You got that right! 

[ATbuckhunter]

3 hours ago, Rattler said:

For all you non-lead guys, do you shoot small game with shotguns?  Are all your shells non-lead bird shot?

I do. My turkey shells are hevi-shot and I also use steel for anything else. Even my .22 bullets are lead free. Im paying more for it, but id rather pay more for a few rounds and have safer meat for the family. Its definitely not easy to do it this way to be honest, but worth it in my eyes.

[vlywaterman]

looks like more than a Rolls,,,, well over a $1.50/ round at cabela's,,, again, that is not my thing, and I don't hunt waterfowl. Someone brought it up, and I passed it on to others who do that.

[vlywaterman]

where do you find non-lead 22s?, I can't even get anyone around here or Gander Mtn, Dick's to order them. I think winchester and CCI are making them,,, are they tin?

[ATbuckhunter]

2 minutes ago, vlywaterman said:

where do you find non-lead 22s?, I can't even get anyone around here or Gander Mtn, Dick's to order them. I think winchester and CCI are making them,,, are they tin?

They're actually 22 mag, I don't have a 22 lr. To get it I had to order it and send it to cabelas in PA and drove down to get it. Although I have heard cci came out with copper 22lr. That nonlead.org is doing some serious testing on it.

[LJC]

On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 9:26 PM, vlywaterman said:

Just recently I was sharing information on non-lead ammunition at a gun show in Saugerties. A gentleman mentioned that lead is “naturally occurring”, as though this made it ok. The idea that if something is natural, it must be ok, I don’t believe is always true. I love wild mushrooms, and I can assure folks that not all that is natural is consumable.  What about mercury and asbestos? If one does not believe that lead is a toxic substance, then concern about lead in ammunition is a mute point. But, if we believe it is toxic why would we put it in our food? I read this article on the site Huntfortruth.org: http://www.huntfortruth.org/research-indicates-no-lead-threat-in-hunted-game/.  Hunters should read the suggested papers, and judge for themselves.

Here is a link for their most important paper that claims there is no evidence that lead in game meat is harmful:

http://poseidon01.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=542020096000011100124085070065064102026044031032057003066126100028004097107027125066031056003008104040034097127076110017002089027091046046045108064100107099094018004077083060021093019070121118081074026006122031121090012075093119079094007084029069005102&EXT=pdf

There is one part in there that states, “Many of the studies are based on randomly selected packs of mincemeat. It should be noted that at least two factors may have increased the likelihood of encountering lead in these packs. First, the minced meat may have been processed from poor cuts, trims and possibly the tissue dam- aged by bullets. Secondly, in one of the studies the packs analyzed were donated to the Community Action Food Centre. One cannot help but ponder whether those households donating gave away their best game meat? “ This scientist is suggesting that hunters donating game are getting rid of the poor quality game meat, or that the processors are not trimming enough around the wound channel? And, the study was done in test tubes, not in a real digestive system. If you want to read a paper that talks about actual real digestion and absorption of lead in game meat, read this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2669501/

 

Here is a great short video that was filmed in Delaware County. I would like to note that the eagle in the film was rehabilitated, and released, but died a week later. It was originally found in the vicinity of another dead bald eagle near Stamford. Probably neither of these eagles would have been found if one didn't have a transmitter on.

http://doas.us/lead-ammunition-a-needless-danger-to-eagles-and-ourselves-video/

Trying to reinvent the wheel ? you should be cleaning you  game meat before eating it who is eating lead? Only if you dont no how to prepare game . the people who comes  up with this crap they obviously  never actually butchered game before. You cut  out the parts that have been damaged by ammo  

[Dinsdale]

13 minutes ago, ATbuckhunter said:

I do. My turkey shells are hevi-shot and I also use steel for anything else. Even my .22 bullets are lead free. Im paying more for it, but id rather pay more for a few rounds and have safer meat for the family. Its definitely not easy to do it this way to be honest, but worth it in my eyes.

Depending on the shotgun I shoot mostly steel for squirrels.

12 minutes ago, vlywaterman said:

looks like more than a Rolls,,,, well over a $1.50/ round at cabela's,,, again, that is not my thing, and I don't hunt waterfowl. Someone brought it up, and I passed it on to others who do that.

South Dakota accepts Fiocchi's "golden pheasant" loads on some of their lands......a nickle plated lead ammo. Nickle plating isn't broken down if ingested.

But its loaded hot and I have a unique bolt action gun where I had EXTREME pressure signs using it. Had to hammer the bolt open.....and that same gun frame will shoot a 416 REM magnum, they are fine through it with some toasty loads and same barrel uses 28ga Brenneke slugs without issue.

Seem OK in a O/U I have but I won't try it through constricted chokes.

[vlywaterman]

thanks for the info, 

I don't live to hunt, my son and son-in-law do, and my daughter was telling me for a few years about lead in venison,,,, I poo-pooed it, saying there is no way the blood can carry that lead around, and most of the bullet is removed or goes through, but , after loosing an eagle to lead poisoning,,,, and doing some homework, I was shocked. And I felt guilty for feeding so much lead tainted venison to my kids,,,, hunting along with road kill was all our meat. I'm not an expert on hunting or shooting,,,, but I want to do my part, there are other hunters like me who hunted for food and don't get involved in all the political crap. I wish someone had shown me this info earlier, but then again,maybe I would have thought it was just political crap.

It's easy to see the results, just shoot both yourself,,, and if you want I'm willing to come and help, and bring some copper rounds.

[airedale]

Kent is now producing their own bismuth and is again loading and selling shotshells. I just purchased 3 boxes which each contain 10 shells at $25 per box. I also load my own with IXT shot which sells for $153 per 7lb bag which ends up loading around 100 shells give or take. NOT CHEAP! I have no choice in the matter because three of my shotguns are doubles which have barrels not proofed for steel and neither are my two autoloaders. I only use these shells for waterfowl which I am forced to do because it is the law! 

Al

[airedale]

 

VLWaterman

 This false lead poisoning narrative is what pisses everyone off, had you butchered your meat properly and discarded "any" suspected of having fragments you would have nothing to worry about as anyone with a half a brain knows.

To dumb us down and basically insinuate today's hunters do not have a clue about the dangers of lead and we are wantonly poisoning our families is bullshit and you know it!

NOBODY HAS "EVER" BEEN PROVEN TO HAVE LEAD POISONING FROM EATING GAME TAKEN WITH  TRADITIONAL AMMO! 

The first place I would look to for any lead contamination showing up in humans is from their water source, it seems like every other day we see in the news for one reason or another a water source is found somewhere that has elevated lead samples.

This whole ball of wax is about the chance of an eagle that may or may not eat some gut pile that may or may not have some bullet fragments. You would if you could throw a whole industry that affects millions of hunters and shooters under the bus because of that! Quit making a mountain out of a molehill. 

Like I posted earlier in this thread that you lead ammo haters did not even acknowledge there are over one million animals killed on our highways every single day, many more by farming that is what I would call a real tragedy. Is everyone going to stop driving and plowing their fields ? I don't think so! 

And so I will again repeat myself as the exhaustive UK study clearly validates. Anyone who takes any game for consumption should carefully remove and bloodshot meat and other meat suspected of containing bullet fragments and all will be good.

Al

Edited September 15, 2016 by airedale

[vlywaterman]

one of the symptoms of lead exposure is aggressiveness.

And where is that exhaustive UK study? I think you got that wrong,,,, the five year study wanted to phase out lead,,, it was one person(who was not involved in it) who said not so fast,,,, not because of the study, but in spite of it. Read the results of the study.

I will repeat myself, name one scientific study that says all these others studies are false. I've posted dozens, a google search for lead in game meat will turn up hundreds.

[airedale]

Yes they wanted to faze out lead and they tried to used the same methods you and your cohorts are using with the phoney game meat lead poisoning scheme which they found out could and would not stand up when meat was properly taken care of!

 

Al

[airedale]

One more time what about the millions of animals killed every single day on our roads and in our farm fields here in the just in the US! Are you going to stop driving-eating?

You guys sound like the Black Lives matter bunch, only Eagles lives matter!

Al

Edited September 15, 2016 by airedale

[Buckmaster7600]

With the amount of hot air you have blown on this topic you should have lied and said why yes I only use steel shot for small game. The 2 or 3 people on this forum that you had on the edge even considering your BS just concluded that you are full of BS.


Let this one die bud.


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[Rattler]

I've concluded non-lead ammo is better for hunting, but it is expensive, is less available and has some ballistic disadvantages that can be overcome with some experimentation.  But considering all of that, I still believe in freedom of choice.  As long as all of this "putting information out there" doesn't progress into legislation banning lead ammo, I have no issue with anyone wanting to use it, or their desire to convert others towards using it.

If someone wanted to give me a box of copper loads to use for deer hunting every season, I'd thank them and use them, as long as the accuracy was the same.  I'm not anti non-lead ammo, just not a proponent of regulation banning lead ammo.

[ATbuckhunter]

As much of a proponent as I am for the use of non lead, there is no way I could support a law that would ban the use of lead bullets. I am 100 percent with rattler on this. I made the choice to spend the extra money because I felt it was worth it. I hunt with a rifle maybe 4 times a year so I don't mind using a 2 dollar bullet because I'm using maybe 1 or 2 a year and a few for sighting in. It's not an easy thing to go completely lead free...especially in NY where we can't ship ammo to our doors. I don't knock anyone for using lead at all. I personally think that lead free is better for the environment and suggest everyone try it for a season.


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[EspressoBuzz]

What if the D.E.C. issued as a new set of regulations as to what type of ammo be used in hunting what animal and at what velocity (many forget it's the high velocity rifles that have ammo splinter and travel far from the wound area) for all state owned land, it may also be valid for private land as other hunting laws are in play on private land also.

I'm just wondering how hateful an idea this is.

 

[vlywaterman]

I don't believe banning is the best either, I think that convincing hunters on copper's merits is the best approach and I think we see that happening in AZ. There are a lot of unhappy people in CA, and I just don't see how it can be enforced anyway. As I am not a duck hunter, do most people comply with not using lead?, and if so, is it because they believe lead is a problem, or they fear getting caught. I think there were lots of hunters pretty unhappy when that ban happened, and there were  lawsuits as well.

Rattler, what do you hunt with and what are the ballistic disadvantages of copper that you have seen. Are you having trouble finding rounds for your caliber? Where are you located?

[DirtTime]

6 hours ago, EspressoBuzz said:

What if the D.E.C. issued as a new set of regulations as to what type of ammo be used in hunting what animal and at what velocity (many forget it's the high velocity rifles that have ammo splinter and travel far from the wound area) for all state owned land, it may also be valid for private land as other hunting laws are in play on private land also.

I'm just wondering how hateful an idea this is.

 

You would see a lot of hunters throw this up - 

 

Look, heres the PETA site addy:

http://www.peta.org

 

 

Vlywaterman has to be the worst troll we have here. This thread is all he has and hasn't posted a comment anywhere else. Not everything is like "Alice In Wonderland", you follow the rabbit down the wrong hole you end up in the Clintons backyard.