New scope

[Bowshotmuzzleloader]

Well Saturday I finally got my gun dialed in , as for the cheap bore sighter,  it was junk every time I installed it the laser would shoot a different location was somewhat close but would never recommended it..

Blew a little over a hundred on shells but grouping with a smile and the the Leupold glass is just such a great upgrade over the old Simmons ,,,, very happy ,,

 

Heres my sideways range at my camp ..

Edited October 30, 2017 by Bowshotmuzzleloader

[wildcat junkie]

On 7/18/2017 at 1:04 PM, Grizz1219 said:

 BDC reticle on it for a shotgun... 

Smoke and mirrors.

[wildcat junkie]

On 7/19/2017 at 11:26 AM, TACC said:

I'm not an optics snob but, I would replace it with a Vortex. Simmons glass just doesn't compare

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Why anyone would choose a Chinese Vortex over an American made Leupold when the price points are similar is beyond me.

[TACC]

Why anyone would choose a Chinese Vortex over an American made Leupold when the price points are similar is beyond me.

Especially if you are referring to illuminated reticle. Leupold price point and options don't even compare

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[wildcat junkie]

4 minutes ago, TACC said:

Especially if you are referring to illuminated reticle. Leupold price point and options don't even compare

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And why do you need an illuminated reticle for deer hunting? Sounds like you need to invest in better optics.

Edited October 30, 2017 by wildcat junkie

[TACC]

And why do you need an illuminated reticle for deer hunting? Sounds like you need to invest in better optics.

I definitely prefer illuminated reticles, especially in low light conditions for all types of huhting, not just deer. Additionally, I have used Luepold in the past , and comparing price to glass I'LL take my Vortex everytime

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[wildcat junkie]

8 minutes ago, TACC said:

I definitely prefer illuminated reticles, especially in low light conditions for all types of huhting, not just deer. Additionally, I have used Luepold in the past , and comparing price to glass I'LL take my Vortex everytime

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My 67 year old eyes can clearly see my duplex reticles way beyond legal shooting times even in dense vegetation. 

Edited October 30, 2017 by wildcat junkie

[Buckmaster7600]

Illuminated reticles have their place in the deer woods. On a low power scope where fast shooting is essential such as drives etc. I own a couple of the leupold vxr's and don't think the extra weight is worth the very small advantage in getting on target with both eyes open.

On a scope with the low magnification higher than 2x where shooting with both eyes open is no longer faster an illuminated reticle has no advantage once so ever.

As for vortex glass, they have been way heavier than the comparable leupolds and that's why I have never bought one.


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[Grizz1219]

13 hours ago, wildcat junkie said:

Smoke and mirrors.

Um, no... The BDC reticles work for rifle and BP I can guarantee it... Took game out passed 300 yds with it on my rifle... works fantastic on a rifle, I haven't used one on a shotgun, but I know it is a big advantage on my BP... 

[wildcat junkie]

10 hours ago, Grizz1219 said:

Um, no... The BDC reticles work for rifle and BP I can guarantee it... Took game out passed 300 yds with it on my rifle... works fantastic on a rifle, I haven't used one on a shotgun, but I know it is a big advantage on my BP... 

Does each BDC come tailored for each individual load as chronographed for each individual rifle?

If not, I can shoot at distance more accurately with my duplex reticle knowing exactly how many fps muzzle velocity my load generates and the ballistic coefficient of the bullet.. I've seen factory ammo shoot nearly 200 fps less than spec'ed..

Furthermore, by knowing how much my duplex reticle subtends, I can estimate yardage very quickly.

Edited October 31, 2017 by wildcat junkie

[Buckmaster7600]

Does each BDC come tailored for each individual load as chronographed for each individual rifle?
If not, I can shoot at distance more accurately with my duplex reticle knowing exactly how many fps muzzle velocity my load generates and the ballistic coefficient of the bullet.. I've seen factory ammo shoot nearly 200 fps less than spec'ed..
Furthermore, by knowing how much my duplex reticle subtends, I can estimate yardage very quickly.

Lol, so if a bdc isn't tailored per rifle and load exactly they can't be used?

I don't have a scope with anything other than duplex German #4 on a hunting gun but that is a asinine statement, you been hanging out with Wolk?




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[wildcat junkie]

12 hours ago, wildcat junkie said:

Does each BDC come tailored for each individual load as chronographed for each individual rifle?

If not, I can shoot at distance more accurately with my duplex reticle knowing exactly how many fps muzzle velocity my load generates and the ballistic coefficient of the bullet.. I've seen factory ammo shoot nearly 200 fps less than spec'ed..

 

 

12 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Lol, so if a bdc isn't tailored per rifle and load exactly they can't be used?

I don't have a scope with anything other than duplex German #4 on a hunting gun but that is a asinine statement, you been hanging out with Wolk?

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If you ask me you're twisting of my statement is what is "asinine".

A better way to look at my statement is that BDC reticles should not be used unless the POI at the various crosshairs is verified at the range. At least at 100 & 200 yds

Let's look at some ballistic facts.

Fact #1. When a friend of mine needed some quick target work to check his zero with a different brand on 180gr  Winchester 30-06 ammo, we found that the actual Mv was just over 2600 fps, 100 fps below the factory spec for that load and 200fps lower that might be had with a rifle with a tight chamber and barrel spec

Fact #2. The BDC does not take into account the distance above the bore that the scope is mounted. The trajectory for a high "see through" mount will be significantly different than if the scope is mounted a s low as possible.

Fact  #3. Not all 180gr bullets have the same ballistic coefficient and BC is the 1 & only factor that affects bullet drop (and wind drift) when all other factors are equal. A round nose .308 180gr bullet has a BC of about .245 while a 180gr Ballistic Tip bullet will have a BC of .517. The RN bullet will lose velocity at a much quicker rate and therefore will have a much more rainbow trajectory.

 

Results of the extremes of these factors. both examples sighted in at 100yds as would be done with the top BDC crosshair.

Example 1. 180gr Ballistic tip bullet at 2700 fps  with high rings -13.2" @ 300 yds

Exampe 2. 180gr Round nose bullet 2 2600 fps with low mounts. -20.5" @ 300yds

 

That's a 7.3" variable and the shooter will not be aware of it unless there is verification at the range.

This is only within 1 given bullet weight. What about 150, 165 or bullets heavier than 180gr?

8mm-06 A.I. 200gr .323 Speer Hotcore bullet with a BC of .411 at a verified 2900 fps. with the scope mounted at a verified 1.7" above the bore C/L, calculated with a MBR (Maximum Point Blank Range + or - 3". I sight in 2 1/2" high at 100yds and verify that the load strikes. just over 2" high at 200yds.. I will then know that my bullet will hit zero at 145 yds, 3" low at 285 yds, 4.3" low at 300yds and at 400yds it will strike 17 3/4" low

Let's say a big buck appears in my hayfield near the distant woodline. I know that my Duplex reticle subtends 5" at 100yds and the fact that the bucks shoulder to brisket  fills the gap. A quick mental calculations puts that buck at 300yds or slightly farther. Given the .5 MOA capability of my rifle  know that my bullet will strike anywhere from 1 1/2" to 6" low at that distance. If I hold at the top of the vitals, just under the point of the shoulder blade, I will get a solid hit in the vitals. Even at 400yds, the TOP of my bottom duplex will put the bullet about 10" low so if I hold just off the hair, again a sloid vital hit.

 

Now compare that to "Bubba" that mounts his BDC scope on his rifle without verifying anything more than the 100 yd zero for the top crosshair in the same situation with a variance of 7" or more in POI BEFORE the grouping ability of the rifle is factored in. Now, you tell me who is going to be assured of a good hit without the chance of wounding the animal.

 Placing blind faith in BDC reticles is akin to "Bubba" stopping into the gun shop the night before opening day to have his scope "bore sighted". Neither will assure that the rifle will hit the desired POA without "putting it on paper" and in the casr of the BDC, at the various ranges that the BDC is supposed to "compensate" for.

Here is an example of BDC verification.

 

 

Edited October 31, 2017 by wildcat junkie

[Buckmaster7600]

If you ask me you're twisting of my statement is what is "asinine".
A better way to look at my statement is that BDC reticles should not be used unless the POI at the various crosshairs is verified at the range. At least at 100 & 200 yds
Let's look at some ballistic facts.
Fact #1. When a friend of mine needed some quick target work to check his zero with a different brand on 180gr  Winchester 30-06 ammo, we found that the actual Mv was just over 2600 fps, 100 fps below the factory spec for that load and 200fps lower that might be had with a rifle with a tight chamber and barrel spec
Fact #2. The BDC does not take into account the distance above the bore that the scope is mounted. The trajectory for a high "see through" mount will be significantly different than if the scope is mounted a s low as possible.
Fact  #3. Not all 180gr bullets have the same ballistic coefficient and BC is the 1 & only factor that affects bullet drop (and wind drift) when all other factors are equal. A round nose .308 180gr bullet has a BC of about .245 while a 180gr Ballistic Tip bullet will have a BC of .517. The RN bullet will lose velocity at a much quicker rate and therefore will have a much more rainbow trajectory.
 
Results of the extremes of these factors. both examples sighted in at 100yds as would be done with the top BDC crosshair.
Example 1. 180gr Ballistic tip bullet at 2700 fps  with high rings -13.2" @ 300 yds
Exampe 2. 180gr Round nose bullet 2 2600 fps with low mounts. -20.5" @ 300yds
 
That's a 7.3" variable and the shooter will not be aware of it unless there is verification at the range.
This is only within 1 given bullet weight. What about 150, 165 or bullets heavier than 180gr?
8mm-06 A.I. 200gr .323 Speer Hotcore bullet with a BC of .411 at a verified 2900 fps. with the scope mounted at a verified 1.7" above the bore C/L, calculated with a MBR (Maximum Point Blank Range + or - 3". I sight in 2 1/2" high at 100yds and verify that the load strikes. just over 2" high at 200yds.. I will then know that my bullet will hit zero at 145 yds, 3" low at 285 yds, 4.3" low at 300yds and at 400yds it will strike 17 3/4" low
Let's say a big buck appears in my hayfield near the distant woodline. I know that my Duplex reticle subtends 5" at 100yds and the fact that the bucks shoulder to brisket  fills the gap. A quick mental calculations puts that buck at 300yds or slightly farther. Given the .5 MOA capability of my rifle  know that my bullet will strike anywhere from 1 1/2" to 6" low at that distance. If I hold at the top of the vitals, just under the point of the shoulder blade, I will get a solid hit in the vitals. Even at 400yds, the TOP of my bottom duplex will put the bullet about 10" low so if I hold just off the hair, again a sloid vital hit.
 
Now compare that to "Bubba" that mounts his BDC scope on his rifle without verifying anything more than the 100 yd zero for the top crosshair in the same situation with a variance of 7" or more in POI BEFORE the grouping ability of the rifle is factored in. Now, you tell me who is going to be assured of a good hit without the chance of wounding the animal.
 Placing blind faith in BDC reticles is akin to "Bubba" stopping into the gun shop the night before opening day to have his scope "bore sighted". Neither will assure that the rifle will hit the desired POA without "putting it on paper" and in the casr of the BDC, at the various ranges that the BDC is supposed to "compensate" for.
Here is an example of BDC verification.

 
 

I guess I misunderstood you. If someone is out hunting with and expecting to use a bdc and hasn't confirmed distance for hold points than they absolutely shouldn't be using it.

My point is generic bdc' are fine as long as you know the 3rd line is dead on at 252yds and not 300.



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[chas0218]

13 hours ago, wildcat junkie said:

Does each BDC come tailored for each individual load as chronographed for each individual rifle?

If not, I can shoot at distance more accurately with my duplex reticle knowing exactly how many fps muzzle velocity my load generates and the ballistic coefficient of the bullet.. I've seen factory ammo shoot nearly 200 fps less than spec'ed..

Furthermore, by knowing how much my duplex reticle subtends, I can estimate yardage very quickly.

You can do that using the Nikon spot on ballistic calculator. It takes into account your zero, the speed of the cartridge and scope. Obviously you should shoot at those distances to verify.

Edited October 31, 2017 by chas0218

[Buckmaster7600]

You can do that using the Nikon spot on ballistic calculator. It takes into account your zero, the speed of the cartridge and scope.

Ehh, kinda. Still should be confirmed at all ranges you intend to shoot at.


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[chas0218]

3 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

Ehh, kinda. Still should be confirmed at all ranges you intend to shoot at.


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No doubt, I just added that. I have went out to 350 yards and the calculator was pretty darn close. Not saying it is for all cartridges but the Kentucky windage as my buddy calls it worked pretty good.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

2 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

No doubt, I just added that. I have went out to 350 yards and the calculator was pretty darn close. Not saying it is for all cartridges but the Kentucky windage as my buddy calls it worked pretty good.

http://quigleyford.com/

These guys actually take the load and rifle specific data and do custom BDC for the combination. Pretty darn good glass based on the ones I have looked through. Caliber, Grain, Ballistic Coefficient,  actual muzzle velocity are provided and custom etched 

[chas0218]

7 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

http://quigleyford.com/

These guys actually take the load and rifle specific data and do custom BDC for the combination. Pretty darn good glass based on the ones I have looked through. Caliber, Grain, Ballistic Coefficient,  actual muzzle velocity are provided and custom etched 

Curious as to what manufacturer glass they use. Really nice to have the yardage etched on the BDC.

Edited October 31, 2017 by chas0218

[wildcat junkie]

31 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

You can do that using the Nikon spot on ballistic calculator. It takes into account your zero, the speed of the cartridge and scope. Obviously you should shoot at those distances to verify.

It needs to factor in the BC of the bullet and the height above bore C/L for the scope to be accurate.

 

BC will factor in bullet drop regardless of caliber or bullet weight. The Nosler #5 reloading manual no longer lists bullets for their ballistics chart, but relies solely on BC.

 

[wildcat junkie]

19 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

No doubt, I just added that. I have went out to 350 yards and the calculator was pretty darn close. Not saying it is for all cartridges but the Kentucky windage as my buddy calls it worked pretty good.

For 350 yds a 3" MPBR zero is effective. My 280 was + or - 3" out to 310 yds and still could be held 
"on hair" to 400 yds. I don't care for all of the business of the BDC reticle.

[wildcat junkie]

18 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

http://quigleyford.com/

These guys actually take the load and rifle specific data and do custom BDC for the combination. Pretty darn good glass based on the ones I have looked through. Caliber, Grain, Ballistic Coefficient,  actual muzzle velocity are provided and custom etched 

Cheese & rice, I can buy 2 good duplex reticle  scopes for those prices and who can shoot well enough in a hunting situation to need anything beyond 500yds anyway?

[chas0218]

7 minutes ago, wildcat junkie said:

It needs to factor in the BC of the bullet and the height above bore C/L for the scope to be accurate.

 

BC will factor in bullet drop regardless of caliber or bullet weight. The Nosler #5 reloading manual no longer lists bullets for their ballistics chart, but relies solely on BC.

 

It does via manufacturers specs once you choose the manufacturer you choose the bullet weight and model so for instance the Hornady 95gr. SST it pulls up the superformance off the shelf data or you can put in your own data for chronographed loads, but it does use the Bullets BC in the calculations. It isn't perfect but for my .270 with handloads it was real close.

3 minutes ago, wildcat junkie said:

For 350 yds a 3" MPBR zero is effective. My 280 was + or - 3" out to 310 yds and still could be held 
"on hair" to 400 yds. I don't care for all of the business of the BDC reticle.

No doubt but I like the ability of just putting the crosshairs on the deer instead of hold over/unders.

[Grizz1219]

14 hours ago, wildcat junkie said:

Does each BDC come tailored for each individual load as chronographed for each individual rifle?

If not, I can shoot at distance more accurately with my duplex reticle knowing exactly how many fps muzzle velocity my load generates and the ballistic coefficient of the bullet.. I've seen factory ammo shoot nearly 200 fps less than spec'ed..

Furthermore, by knowing how much my duplex reticle subtends, I can estimate yardage very quickly.

So you are saying you knew nothing about them but still wrote "Smoke and mirrors"??? You go to the website and select what scope, what caliber, gauge etc.. Then select the load you are using... So to answer your question, it does customize it to the load... That's why I suggested it and recommend it.. 

[wildcat junkie]

14 minutes ago, Grizz1219 said:

So you are saying you knew nothing about them but still wrote "Smoke and mirrors"??? You go to the website and select what scope, what caliber, gauge etc.. Then select the load you are using... So to answer your question, it does customize it to the load... That's why I suggested it and recommend it.. 

And wheat if your load is 200fps less Mv than specified and what about the distance of the scope above the bore axis.?

[wildcat junkie]

1 hour ago, chas0218 said:

It does via manufacturers specs once you choose the manufacturer you choose the bullet weight and model so for instance the Hornady 95gr. SST it pulls up the superformance off the shelf data or you can put in your own data for chronographed loads, but it does use the Bullets BC in the calculations. It isn't perfect but for my .270 with handloads it was real close.

No doubt but I like the ability of just putting the crosshairs on the deer instead of hold over/unders.

I can do that with + or - 3" MPBR out to 300yds.