I was happy to see Clinton lose. Now I will be happy if this tax plan doesn't go through.

[Core]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/i-dont-feel-wealthy-the-upper-middle-class-is-worried-about-paying-for-the-tax-overhaul/2017/11/09/a5cf1acc-c55e-11e7-aae0-cb18a8c29c65_story.html?utm_term=.c976d86a159b

This tax plan looks terrible for a lot of new yorkers and californians, NJ etc.. I realize we have gotten away with paying less federal than some in other states, on account of deductions, but at the end of the day our total tax rate is already exceptionally high and I believe if this goes through it's going to affect me negatively. This is not going to engender me to future republican support.

This also cools my desire to move. We were thinking of getting another house and I'm not sure it's responsible without seeing how this all pans out, because with our astronomical property and state taxes, if we can no longer deduct those I'm paying egregious property taxes on income I've already had to pay federal taxes on. It's going to hit me in the pocket book.

[Steuben Jerry]

+1

3-6 years from retirement here. I was 50-50 on leaving the state when I retire due to high taxes (property taxes have almost tripled in 9 years with no major improvements done to the home).

If this goes through, I'm out, maybe ASAP.

[Buckmaster7600]

Why do you think it's ok for other states to have to pick up our slack? Yea we loose our deductions but should we have had them to begin with? It's not the federal Governments problem that we are raped by state taxes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[philoshop]

1 hour ago, Core said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/i-dont-feel-wealthy-the-upper-middle-class-is-worried-about-paying-for-the-tax-overhaul/2017/11/09/a5cf1acc-c55e-11e7-aae0-cb18a8c29c65_story.html?utm_term=.c976d86a159b

This tax plan looks terrible for a lot of new yorkers and californians, NJ etc.. I realize we have gotten away with paying less federal than some in other states, on account of deductions, but at the end of the day our total tax rate is already exceptionally high and I believe if this goes through it's going to affect me negatively. This is not going to engender me to future republican support.

This also cools my desire to move. We were thinking of getting another house and I'm not sure it's responsible without seeing how this all pans out, because with our astronomical property and state taxes, if we can no longer deduct those I'm paying egregious property taxes on income I've already had to pay federal taxes on. It's going to hit me in the pocket book.

If the Democrat states didn't spend the money of their taxpayers foolishly and then continually ask them for more we wouldn't be in this position. Right?  Blaming the Federal government for State incompetence is a non-starter with me.

You are still 'at liberty' to leave this state at any time to avoid the oppression of this particular State. Any law, tax related or otherwise, that mandates that the rest of the country subsidize the failures and inadequacies of a few states is wrong.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

It sucks but really is the right way. The high tax liberal states should have to pay just as much as all the other states,. Maybe this will wise the liberals in these states up a bit about their spending habits......but I doubt it. 

[Steuben Jerry]

2 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Why do you think it's ok for other states to have to pick up our slack? Yea we loose our deductions but should we have had them to begin with? It's not the federal Governments problem that we are raped by state taxes.

And that's exactly why I feel conflicted.

I do agree. I really do, but my wallet doesn't.

Between the property taxes, the loss of the deduction, and other higher costs of living, 6 more years of living in NYS vs say North Carolina or Tennessee, the total difference in finances will be over 100k for me in that time. And I live pretty modestly in NY.

I'm wondering if I'm wiser to just pull up stakes and vamoose NY for this reason. I could probably get a part time job (I'm planning on working part time anyways just to avoid becoming a sloth) and just about retire now.

 

 

 

[Core]

2 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Why do you think it's ok for other states to have to pick up our slack? Yea we loose our deductions but should we have had them to begin with? It's not the federal Governments problem that we are raped by state taxes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's not really okay, though I think a lot of red states actually pay less for federal than they get out of it; whereas I believe blue states pay a little more than their share because although we pay less as if we made the same pay in another state our total pay is higher.

At the end of the day my taxes are high. If they go higher I won't make idle threats about leaving the state but it does change my outlook. It would make me very slightly more willing to entertain the occasional whisper from my wife about leaving.

[Core]

2 hours ago, philoshop said:

If the Democrat states didn't spend the money of their taxpayers foolishly and then continually ask them for more we wouldn't be in this position. Right?  Blaming the Federal government for State incompetence is a non-starter with me.

You are still 'at liberty' to leave this state at any time to avoid the oppression of this particular State. Any law, tax related or otherwise, that mandates that the rest of the country subsidize the failures and inadequacies of a few states is wrong.

That's great and all but I have a house, kids are fully established, we have careers locally. I have already moved states in the past. Ripping my family out of where they are now is a terribly burdensome. I'm not terribly inclined to leave simply because the current political winds (which will change eventually) don't favor me. I have to just take it more or less, but no I don't like it.

I'm just glad I didn't move yet to a more expensive house, if this ends up going through. 

[Buckmaster7600]

It's not really okay, though I think a lot of red states actually pay less for federal than they get out of it; whereas I believe blue states pay a little more than their share because although we pay less as if we made the same pay in another state our total pay is higher.

At the end of the day my taxes are high. If they go higher I won't make idle threats about leaving the state but it does change my outlook. It would make me very slightly more willing to entertain the occasional whisper from my wife about leaving.

You're fighting the wrong fight, I don't know how you can blame this on the trump administration when the real problems are in our state.

 

I hate NY politics but it's home. I make great money working for the state and the day I retire I will take NY's money to another state.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Doc]

There's an old saying that "Figures don't lie, but liars figure". Heck we had old Chuckie Schumer and Pelosi whining about the damage to the middle class with these tax cuts even before the first word of the bill was written. And how the hell do you expect any credible comments to come from the "fake news" people in the mainstream media. Haven't you caught on to the media bias against all things Republican? It might be prudent to at least have a reconciled tax bill constructed by both the House and the Senate before we start flipping out about the content of a bill that isn't even written yet.

[Core]

Further to my last post, before anybody starts considering us leeches in NY for getting these deductions, a lot of red states rely more heavily on federal aid than NY:

https://taxfoundation.org/states-rely-most-federal-aid/

Perhaps more importantly, NY pays a much higher amount of federal taxes than these other states as well:

http://www.dailyinfographic.com/federal-tax-dollars-per-state-infographic

So saying we get some special treatment and aren't paying our way is bit like a person at $20k income/year complaining that I use some deduction they don't and it's not fair, except I already pay tons more in tax than them irrespective of that.

I'm only going to partially blame NY state for this situation. As it is the federal gov receives ample tax revenue from us even with our deductions. Yeah, if my tax burden goes up because of new legislation out of Washington I will hold responsible the party that directly and most recently caused my tax rate to go up.

I don't really believe anybody in this thread who sees theirs also increase will put the blame squarely on NY and give a pass to the party that just made it happen. 

Edited November 11, 2017 by Core

[Core]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5073343/Mitch-McConnell-Middle-class-tax-hike-all.html

The Times defined middle class households as those earning about $50,000 to $160,000 per year for a family of three...the Times predicted that about one-quarter of middle class families would see about a $1,000 increase in taxes by 2018. By 2026, one-third of the middle class families would face a $1,600 tax increase.

I'm positive I will be the recipient of an increase if this passes. Even the dems are not stupid enough to pass a broad increase in income taxes on the middle class.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Core

[Culvercreek hunt club]

On 11/12/2017 at 7:17 AM, Core said:

 

I'm positive I will be the recipient of an increase if this passes. Even the dems are not stupid enough to pass a broad increase in income taxes on the middle class.

It isn't "broad" it is effecting the higher state taxed states. Just so happens that those states are liberal high spending states. States that a Republican candidate will never get electoral votes from anyway. SO it make perfect sense that they will reward the states that will support them and do it on the backs of the ones that won't 

[Core]

5 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

It isn't "broad" it is effecting the higher state taxed states. Just so happens that those states are liberal high spending states. States that a Republican candidate will never get electoral votes from anyway. SO it make perfect sense that they will reward the states that will support them and do it on the backs of the ones that won't 

Evidently house republicans in some of these states such as new york will be not voting for this. As my link in the first post points out it's also people in some democrat-leaning states who may also get punished.

I promise that if this goes through and my taxes go up I will be removing myself from the republican party. I won't join the dems, but I will not be part of this party if it takes my already massive taxes and makes them even more so. Despite these much needed deductions I already pay much more in federal taxes than the average person outside of our state.

Lots of states teeter back and forth. If this bill goes through, the truly poor who may get a break (as if they pay anything anyway) are still going to vote dem. Those of us who get hit will not forget, or forgive. New york is lost to republicans already but many other states are not, but they can be.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

3 minutes ago, Core said:

Despite these much needed deductions I already pay much more in federal taxes than the average person outside of our state.

 

Do you pay more in Federal tax than a person in other states of similar income?

[philoshop]

What if Greenville, SC suddenly became the home of the Stock Exchange. Or Huntsville, AL became the center of movie production?

Given today's political climate, would there be a difference of opinion with regard to the 'centers of power' in this country?

Of course there would, because it's just damned wrong that rubes and hicks and gun-toting, bible-carrying Americans should ever be able to govern themselves in this new world.

It's not about the basic nuts-n-and-bolts of the tax plan, it's about stopping the President's effort to change the way DC works. It's a big f***ng club, and we ain't in it.

[Core]

17 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

Do you pay more in Federal tax than a person in other states of similar income?

Probably not. But that's not as apples to apples as you think, because my income is probably higher in NY anyway; NY residents per capita pay more in federal taxes than Louisiana for example even with our deductions because we're a much wealthier state.

[Core]

14 hours ago, philoshop said:

 

It's not about the basic nuts-n-and-bolts of the tax plan, it's about stopping the President's effort to change the way DC works. It's a big f***ng club, and we ain't in it.

My nuts and bolts are I don't want my taxes raised.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Probably not. But that's not as apples to apples as you think, because my income is probably higher in NY anyway; NY residents per capita pay more in federal taxes than Louisiana for example even with our deductions because we're a much wealthier state.

I don’t agree. While I see the point you made you shouldn’t be looking at it per capita or per state. And the income being higher means nothing. So what if a carpenter gets paid more per year here than they would in a southern state. Means nothing. We are taxes based on the activity. We are taxed on income. A person making 50k should pay the same federal income tax regardless of where they are. Same for a person making 100k or a million.

[Core]

21 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I don’t agree. While I see the point you made you shouldn’t be looking at it per capita or per state. And the income being higher means nothing. So what if a carpenter gets paid more per year here than they would in a southern state. Means nothing. We are taxes based on the activity. We are taxed on income. A person making 50k should pay the same federal income tax regardless of where they are. Same for a person making 100k or a million.

Why not per state? NY is a wealthy state. Some of that may be in part because of the high state taxes, which create better schools than mississippi, so then even with our deductions our people make so much more money that we contribute more to the federal coffers than somebody from MS. And the fed says no you need to pay even more? Even with deductions we contribute more to the federal coffers per person than a poor red state.

I quite accurately pay the equivalent of federal taxes equal to several very low income families because they pay nothing (and may even get some back) federal taxes. It sounds like you're saying I shouldn't complain if due to this plan I end up paying yet more taxes still.

If Bob makes $100k and pays $10k taxes and Jim makes $50k and pays $6k taxes, Bob's tax rate is lower than Jim's, but he's paying more. it sounds like you don't believe that is fair on Jim even though Bob contributes more than Jim.

What this plan does is further skews taxes in this country. The lower half already pay so little in fed taxes they are barely relevant. This will make the difference worse. As it is the upper income tiers are wildly over-represented in tax burden.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

55 minutes ago, Core said:

Why not per state? NY is a wealthy state. Some of that may be in part because of the high state taxes, which create better schools than mississippi, so then even with our deductions our people make so much more money that we contribute more to the federal coffers than somebody from MS. And the fed says no you need to pay even more? Even with deductions we contribute more to the federal coffers per person than a poor red state.

I quite accurately pay the equivalent of federal taxes equal to several very low income families because they pay nothing (and may even get some back) federal taxes. It sounds like you're saying I shouldn't complain if due to this plan I end up paying yet more taxes still.

If Bob makes $100k and pays $10k taxes and Jim makes $50k and pays $6k taxes, Bob's tax rate is lower than Jim's, but he's paying more. it sounds like you don't believe that is fair on Jim even though Bob contributes more than Jim.

What this plan does is further skews taxes in this country. The lower half already pay so little in fed taxes they are barely relevant. This will make the difference worse. As it is the upper income tiers are wildly over-represented in tax burden.

Let's try this. 

Bob in NY makes 100k and pays 5k in state taxes and his federal taxes are 9500 based on an adjusted income of 95k (deduct state taxes) 

Jim in another state like Florida with no state income taxes makes 100k and pays 10k in Federal income taxes becasue they don't have a state tax to deduct. 

That is the comparison we are talking about. SO you feel that just becasue NY chooses to spend and tax it's residents that the Federal portion should be carried dis proportionally by Jim. 

 

The shit deal is on the state level NOT an equalization on the Federal. 

Edited November 14, 2017 by Culvercreek hunt club

[airedale]

1 hour ago, Core said:

NY is a wealthy state. Some of that may be in part because of the high state taxes,

MAY BE? 

There is a tax or fee on just about everything one does or buys in this bloodsucking state! 

Starting with state income tax, then state and county sales tax that lops off close to 10% right from the get go, then we have local property and school tax, throw in the endless tax and fee parade like the Thruway, Gas, Booze, Tobacco, Phones, TV, vehicles, restaurants etc, etc, etc etc, etc, etc, ! If there is a way to bleed another penny from it's citizens this state will surely come up with some kind of innovative way to do it.

The high tax liberal state politicians have been piling it on for years and the chickens are coming home to roost.

Al

Edited November 14, 2017 by airedale

[Core]

31 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

Let's try this. 

Bob in NY makes 100k and pays 5k in state taxes and his federal taxes are 9500 based on an adjusted income of 95k (deduct state taxes) 

Jim in another state like Florida with no state income taxes makes 100k and pays 10k in Federal income taxes becasue they don't have a state tax to deduct. 

That is the comparison we are talking about. SO you feel that just becasue NY chooses to spend and tax it's residents that the Federal portion should be carried dis proportionally by Jim. 

 

The shit deal is on the state level NOT an equalization on the Federal. 

Good point, but I'll take this comparison to its logical conclusion. Bob in NY makes $100k and his federal end up being on $95k.

Jim makes $90k and has no state taxes and pays federal on $90k.

Therefore Bob still pays more than Jim. Why does Jim only make $90k instead of $100k? Because he lives in an economically weak state in part because state infrastructure does not support business.

Here's the map again. And this link: http://www.dailyinfographic.com/federal-tax-dollars-per-state-infographic

So it's not fair to say same income in one state than another because states have different income levels; blue tend to be wealthier. Even with our deductions we still pay more per capita. People in Montana may complain that we are taking advantage of deductions, but they rely on the fed more than we do and they pay less in taxes even still. So who's really taking advantage of who?

 

[img[

Edited November 14, 2017 by Core

[Core]

13 minutes ago, airedale said:

MAY BE? 

There is a tax or fee on just about everything one does or buys in this bloodsucking state! 

Starting with state income tax, then state and county sales tax that lops off close to 10% right from the get go, then we have local property and school tax, throw in the endless tax and fee parade like the Thruway, Gas, Booze, Tobacco, Phones, TV, vehicles, restaurants etc, etc, etc etc, etc, etc, ! If there is a way to bleed another penny from it's citizens this state will surely come up with some kind of innovative way to do it.

The high tax liberal state politicians have been piling it on for years and the chickens are coming home to roost.

Al

Yes, NY dings us on everything, but look at this. It is a statistically relevant trend. Red states are poorer.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

3 minutes ago, Core said:

Good point, but I'll take this comparison to its logical conclusion. Bob in NY makes $100k and his federal end up being on $95k.

Jim makes $90k and has no state taxes and pays federal on $90k.

Therefore Bob still pays more than Jim. Why does Jim only make $90k instead of $100k? Because he lives in an economically weak state in part because state infrastructure does not support business.

Here's the map again. And this link: http://www.dailyinfographic.com/federal-tax-dollars-per-state-infographic

So it's not fair to say same income in one state than another because states have different income levels; blue tend to be wealthier. Even with our deductions we still pay more per capita.

 

[img[

I understand you are upset but you just aren't gettign it. In your you have to compare Jim to Sam from NY that also makes 90k. What you are trying to do is equal to comparing your and my tax burden to Warren Buffets. That is the apples and oranges.