Deer population - Is it growing or is it over hunted?

[Doc]

You are spot on Doc!

Considering that hunters spend less time in the woods these days and for the past several years the weather (southern zone) has been lousy, do you trust the DEC deer kill statistics. Are hunters these days more efficient?

Sorry for hijacking this thread, I just could not control myself!

Relative to whether I trust the DEC numbers or not ....... I do not. I will start another thread that involves that topic. I think it's an interesting question.

Doc

[patriot]

Funny we hunt by Hunter mountain ski resort all the guys in the valley for the most part know each other and we try and tally up the deer count 4 bucks total in a 7 mile valley not so good Bear count was 4,one group of guys shot 1 buck and 4 bears should be the other way like 4 bucks and 1 bear,We also only saw 2 yearlings spotting at night in the whole valley prior to lasts years hunting season,This year should be interesting

[Doc]

So, I will ask it here where it seems kind of relevant.....

How does the DEC come up with hard numbers for deer population levels and densities? What is the procedure? What are the factors that they rely on to get those hard precise numbers? I think it will turn out that nobody knows. I wonder if the DEC does ..... lol. Frankly, I can't even imagine.

Doc

[wztirem]

If the DEC schedules public meetings this year to hear hunter comments as they did last year the DEC should be asked the question regarding the above subject.

I am sure that a boiler plate response has already been written!

[Doc]

If the DEC schedules public meetings this year to hear hunter comments as they did last year the DEC should be asked the question regarding the above subject.

I am sure that a boiler plate response has already been written!

But as long as it has detail about the process, I sure would be interested in hearing it, even if it's some kind of canned response. It would just be interesting to see how that all happens.

[wellsley]

How can it be growing ? The way the system is now you have a tag for any spamp you buy plus for each hunter the doe permits are always more than the area require, plus if you use up all your tags, get a buddy to sign over his... now tell me just how the DEC has any idea of what is the deer herd level ? they use the same numbers year after year. We asked them to put as part of getting a licence you have to fill out via the system a small sampling of questions on did you hunt last year, what area, numbers of days, amount of deer you saw, did you take a deer, what was it, and a other were the hunter could type in concerns. This would be a start of a real time system, so that doe permits was used to keep the herd in top shape. If I could I would fire 100% of the DEc top management, they are no help to the hunter or the deer herd they should be protecting.

Just remember NYS does not manage the deer herd for the hunter. They use hunters to manage the deer herd. They manage the deer herd to meet the carrying capacity of the land. That means things like vehicle accidents, crop damage, and property damage to residential area's are taken into consideration when making decisions on herd management.

[Doc]

Just remember NYS does not manage the deer herd for the hunter. They use hunters to manage the deer herd. They manage the deer herd to meet the carrying capacity of the land. That means things like vehicle accidents, crop damage, and property damage to residential area's are taken into consideration when making decisions on herd management.

And to emphasize that point, take a look at the list of various "Stakeholders" that are defined in the blurb on the DEC website about CFTs (Citizen Task Force). Farmers, hunters, foresters, conservationists, motorists, the tourism industry, landowners, small business, etc. You will find more eligible representatives from what I call the "anti-deer forces" than you will those that want to see more (or any for that matter) deer.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/7207.html

We may think we rule the roost where the DEC is concerned, but our influence has been eroding over the years. As far as the DEC managing "the deer herd to meet the carrying capacity of the land", I'm afraid that in reality, it looks like their primary concerns are the impacts to financial interests around the state, and how best to keep satisfied, and quiet, "stakeholders".

Doc

[wellsley]

What gets me is some of the ones that complain there are no deer are the ones that shoot as many does as they can. If you don't feel there are enough deer in the area go some where else where there is more deer to fill your doe tag. ( I'm not refering to anyone here, just people I come in contact with)

[wztirem]

Just remember NYS does not manage the deer herd for the hunter. They use hunters to manage the deer herd. They manage the deer herd to meet the carrying capacity of the land. That means things like vehicle accidents, crop damage, and property damage to residential area's are taken into consideration when making decisions on herd management.

And to emphasize that point, take a look at the list of various "Stakeholders" that are defined in the blurb on the DEC website about CFTs (Citizen Task Force). Farmers, hunters, foresters, conservationists, motorists, the tourism industry, landowners, small business, etc. You will find more eligible representatives from what I call the "anti-deer forces" than you will those that want to see more (or any for that matter) deer.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/7207.html

We may think we rule the roost where the DEC is concerned, but our influence has been eroding over the years. As far as the DEC managing "the deer herd to meet the carrying capacity of the land", I'm afraid that in reality, it looks like their primary concerns are the impacts to financial interests around the state, and how best to keep satisfied, and quiet, "stakeholders".

Doc

Good point, the DEC is so financially strapped that they have no choice but to choose the path of least resistance when it comes to their deer management priorities.

[SteveMcD]

Here in Southeast New York (Dutchess, Putnam, Westchester.. definitely over hunted. Any public land available gets hammered pretty hard, and any private land available isd usually locked up in a lease or hunting club, so with so little land left, the private access parcels get just as hammered as the state land almost. 

I stick to Bow Only areas, especially during the Gun Season and don't mind walking the extra mile further back in the woods.

[MountainHunter]

3a is down considerably over the last few years.3G is down in the more mountainous portions.

The bear and coyotes have hit the herd hard in these areas.

[sits in trees]

Its amazing how much huntable state land exists in Schoharie County that is under utilized!

same thing here in Ulster, a few days after opening day of rifle season you can spend days in the woods without seeing another hunter. during bow season you might see one or 2 other hunters the whole season, thats why i gotta laugh when the anti x-bow guys start singing the "crossbows are going to flood the woods with hunters song"? i hunt 3m and 3j which is supposed to have the highest hunter populations in the state.

[fasteddie]

I see numerous hunters during Bow and Gun Season in 8F , 8H and 8N . Cars parked in spots at 5 am near woods and fields . The deer are there but many of them have gone nocturnal .

There is a farmer whose family farms land in Pittsford & Mendon who told me that a retired DEC officer goes out and does periodic counts and there is a high deer populatin here .

[Larry]

in pittsford & mendon access is the problem

[Larry]

:-[  Could QDM be a prime factor in the lower number of deer sightings?

We all heard it at the end of deer season on wed sites or in publications from other hunters; I hunted all season and only saw 6 deer all season. Then we start looking for someone or something to blame. We blame the DEC because we think the herd size estimates are wrong, we blame coyotes, to many nuisance permits being given out and even cars. All these are factors and there are more one of the biggest factors is hardly mentioned and that’s “US” myself included.

  When we all first started to hear about QDM and its management style; we were told if we wanted to see bigger bucks we needed to let small bucks walk, manage does (kill more does) this is not the same as antlerless. We were told the buck to doe ratio was way off and needed to be 1 to 1 this ratio is not correct.

  The harvesting of doe’s makes scents; to control a population you need to add or subtract females. We were also told that if we killed Does we would see more bucks. I do not think that is necessarily true and I can prove it. When I say doe’s I mean females 1.5 years old and older not antlerless. Because at any time before the deer season ½ to 2/3’s of the antlerless population on a piece of land are fawns.

  If on your land you have 15 doe’s and 5 bucks (1.5 years and older) and you kill 10 doe’s and no bucks you still only have 5 bucks. What you have done is reduced the number of doe’s by 2/3’s. What you will see are more buck sightings per doe sighting and you will see fewer fawns the next year. Another example is in Allegany County a farmer started a QDM program on his 1700 acres. He went out at night spot lighting to see what kind of deer he had and he saw lots of antlerless deer. For 3 years they took over 40 doe’s a year using DMP’s and DMAP’s. He would let you hunt there but you had to kill doe’s no bucks. They would kill a few big bucks. Then in years 4-6 they started to kill fewer and fewer doe’s by year 6 they killed less than 10 doe’s and no bucks, saw plenty of bucks before the season but killed none. Funny thing started to happen, his neighbors started to kill big bucks. They were not killing off their doe’s so the bucks were moving to where the does are.

  What I believe he did was not only destroy his doe population he also destroyed the age structure of his doe herd. This is what I believe we are doing under the miss guided concept of killing doe’s gives you more bucks and the myth of the 1 to 1 buck to doe ratio. If anyone can show me how killing doe’s can give you more bucks that’s a trick I would like to see. With a birth rate at 50/50 bucks to doe’s I am not advocating not shooting doe’s; what I am advocating is be careful on how many and where in the age structure you harvest the doe’s from.

[WNYBuckHunter]

The idea behind killing more does and getting the doe to buck ratio down is not that there will be MORE bucks, just that you will see the resident bucks more often. Why? Because there are less does available and the bucks need to travel more to find them, bringing your chances up of seeing the bucks. In your example, it sounds like the guy put way too much pressure on his land and drove the herd away from it, so the neighbors were able to take advantage of the mistake he made. Now if he would have cordoned off a good size chunk of thick woods near the center of his property as a sanctuary area, the deer may have stayed instead of leaving for less pressured areas. Sounds like the QDM worked, he just made a few mistakes.

[wztirem]

I see numerous hunters during Bow and Gun Season in 8F , 8H and 8N . Cars parked in spots at 5 am near woods and fields . The deer are there but many of them have gone nocturnal .

There is a farmer whose family farms land in Pittsford & Mendon who told me that a retired DEC officer goes out and does periodic counts and there is a high deer populatin here .

Just like unhuntable private land adjacent to high pressured public and private land.

[Larry]

how do you get more bucks by killing lots of doe's. I may have missed this part of Bio. 101 but don't bucks come form doe's?   

[wztirem]

how do you get more bucks by killing lots of doe's. I may have missed this part of Bio. 101 but don't bucks come form doe's? 

I would imagine, short term results would equate to more bucks being seen chasing fewer does. Killing to many does and add in winter mortality is seemingly a recipe for disaster. Lets first get a handle on the deer population in a given area and determine the carrying capacity of the habitat before whacking does in order to get more buck sightings.

Larry, bucks are delivered by the stork!

[wztirem]

How can it be growing ? The way the system is now you have a tag for any spamp you buy plus for each hunter the doe permits are always more than the area require, plus if you use up all your tags, get a buddy to sign over his... now tell me just how the DEC has any idea of what is the deer herd level ? they use the same numbers year after year. We asked them to put as part of getting a licence you have to fill out via the system a small sampling of questions on did you hunt last year, what area, numbers of days, amount of deer you saw, did you take a deer, what was it, and a other were the hunter could type in concerns. This would be a start of a real time system, so that doe permits was used to keep the herd in top shape. If I could I would fire 100% of the DEc top management, they are no help to the hunter or the deer herd they should be protecting.

Just remember NYS does not manage the deer herd for the hunter. They use hunters to manage the deer herd. They manage the deer herd to meet the carrying capacity of the land. That means things like vehicle accidents, crop damage, and property damage to residential area's are taken into consideration when making decisions on herd management.

Spot on with your comment Wellesley! What you posted describes the DEC's mandate.

[WNYBuckHunter]

how do you get more bucks by killing lots of doe's. I may have missed this part of Bio. 101 but don't bucks come form doe's? 

I never said that, go back and read what I wrote. I dont feel like repeating lol.  ;D

[fasteddie]

I was at my son's home in the Mendon / Honeoye Falls area yesterday . Aruond 6:30 pm I looked across the road with the binos and counted 14 deer . At least 3 of them were bucks . My youngest son and his girlfriend said they saw at least 2 dozen deer in the field less than 1/2 mile west of the house . Very few of them are coming out during mid day but show up before dark .

[fasteddie]

I took these pics the spring of 2009 at the north East corner of Routes 65 and 251 . I lost count at 57 ...........

[bushnell]

The deer population in the area I hunt has been holding about steady the past 3-4 years. There is no over abundance in deer compared to the late 90's when I started hunting but I am still seeing deer.

[LTC24]

I hunt in two DMP's 4F - little or no permits and 7H tons of permits. Numbers are steady or gowing slightly in both areas. The big difference in my opinion is the coyote population. In 4F you see a doe and twins in the spring, by late summer it's a doe and fawn. In 7H, far fewer coyotes - you see a doe and twins right into hunting season. The bear population is also growing in 4F.  We only hunt during short season, these predators hunt all year long.