Exit 119

[Culvercreek hunt club]

OK. I just can't hold it in anymore. Anyone else just laugh their butts off when someone refers to anything below Poughkeepsie  as "Upstate" ? That whole area south of there is the city in my book. lol

[the blur]

2 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

OK. I just can't hold it in anymore. Anyone else just laugh their butts off when someone refers to anything below Poughkeepsie  as "Upstate" ? That whole area south of there is the city in my book. lol

Certainly true now.   Wasn't true 20 years ago.

[BizCT]

8 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

OK. I just can't hold it in anymore. Anyone else just laugh their butts off when someone refers to anything below Poughkeepsie  as "Upstate" ? That whole area south of there is the city in my book. lol

That's because there are parts of Dutchess County, Orange County, and some of the Catskills areas that are just as much "boonies" as anywhere else in the state. 

[steve863]

9 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

OK. I just can't hold it in anymore. Anyone else just laugh their butts off when someone refers to anything below Poughkeepsie  as "Upstate" ? That whole area south of there is the city in my book. lol

Westchester, Putnam, Rockland and a good portion of Orange and Dutchess counties are most definitely not upstate and never have been in my book.  If you are within an hour too an hour and a half of NYC limits you are in suburbia and not rural America.  Guys can think they are in the boonies up there, but I can assure them they are not.  And this is coming from someone who grew up in NYC.

 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

5 minutes ago, Biz-R-OWorld said:

That's because there are parts of Dutchess County, Orange County, and some of the Catskills areas that are just as much "boonies" as anywhere else in the state. 

I am VERY familiar with that area Biz. Worked there and hunted the Catskills. Geographically I get your point but I was more speaking about the "city" opinions and attitudes. That's why I cringe every time a politician mentions a high speed rail to Albany

[the blur]

Is this because of the casino ?      

[AuburnNYC]

This law is very different from AL so I decided to look into it. Personally, I'd ask for permission before hunting anywhere but it is nice to know that if a deer you shot runs onto unposted unimproved land in NY you can drag it out without having to track down the owner. In AL, you have to ask permission before even stepping foot on someone else's property (even to drag out a downed deer) but generally there people approve of hunting.

Under the NY penal code (link below) Trespass is defined as "knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in or upon premises". It looks like there is an exception if the land is unimproved and apparently unused whereby a "person who enters" does so "with license and privilege". So technically it looks legal to hunt unimproved unused unposted land if you're entering under the privilege exception under the trespass code.

In this particular situation the deer were in a field and the fact that there was any posting at all would seem to disqualify it from "apparently unused".

I can't find anything in the DEC regs stating otherwise. The website has this information saying hunters have a "responsibility to obtain permission" but I can't find anywhere in the actual DEC codes. My guess is this has caused DEC headaches but isn't illegal technically. The wording here is interesting "does not give you the right to trespass". Technically you aren't trespassing under the NY penal code if you enter by the unimproved land exception...

DEC Website

https://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/2442.html

Question: Can I be arrested for trespass if I didn't see any posted signs?
Answer: Yes. Your hunting license does not give you the right to trespass on private property. It is your responsibility to find out who the land owner is and ask their permission whether the property is posted or not. The New York State Penal Law makes it an offense to enter any land without permission.

"Question: If a property is not posted, does that mean I can hunt there?
Answer: All property is owned by somebody. The lack of posted signs, fences or other man made objects does not imply that you may enter to hunt, fish or trap. It is your responsibility to obtain permission to enter private lands or waters. Public lands and waters may or may not have restrictions that can be found by contacting the municipality owning the lands."

Relevant NY Code:

http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article140.htm#p140.05

S 140.05 Trespass. A person is guilty of trespass when he knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in or upon premises.

"A person who enters or remains upon unimproved and apparently unused land, which is neither fenced nor otherwise enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders, does so with license and privilege unless notice against trespass is personally communicated to him by the owner of such land or other authorized person, or unless such notice is given by posting in a conspicuous manner."

[BizCT]

1 hour ago, steve863 said:

Westchester, Putnam, Rockland and a good portion of Orange and Dutchess counties are most definitely not upstate and never have been in my book.  If you are within an hour too an hour and a half of NYC limits you are in suburbia and not rural America.  Guys can think they are in the boonies up there, but I can assure them they are not.  And this is coming from someone who grew up in NYC.

 

upstate is an irrelevant term. To me, there's:

Long Island

NYC

SENY

ADK's/North Country

CNY

WNY

All of them have their shitholes; all of them have their nice areas.

[the blur]

5 minutes ago, AuburnNYC said:

 

S 140.05 Trespass. A person is guilty of trespass when he knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in or upon premises.

"A person who enters or remains upon unimproved and apparently unused land, which is neither fenced nor otherwise enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders, does so with license and privilege unless notice against trespass is personally communicated to him by the owner of such land or other authorized person, or unless such notice is given by posting in a conspicuous manner."

I'm telling you, I remember this from my hunter safety class 35 years ago.   It's 100% legal trespassing, under certain conditions.   The trespass ticket would NOT hold up in court.

The posting laws must be adhered to as well.   They are very specific.   You can't just bang up a blank sign.   That's worthless.

 

[Bionic]

1 hour ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

OK. I just can't hold it in anymore. Anyone else just laugh their butts off when someone refers to anything below Poughkeepsie  as "Upstate" ? That whole area south of there is the city in my book. lol

Lol, agree a zillion percent....Poughkeepsie is still way too south also.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Bionic

[Buckmaster7600]

I'm telling you, I remember this from my hunter safety class 35 years ago.   It's 100% legal trespassing, under certain conditions.   The trespass ticket would NOT hold up in court.
The posting laws must be adhered to as well.   They are very specific.   You can't just bang up a blank sign.   That's worthless.
 

If you’re ever arrested for trespassing make sure you make that exact argument to the judge, you’ll get off no problems!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[the blur]

Do what any lawyer would do.   Cite the section of law you are referring too.

Ticket Dismissed   !!

[BizCT]

3 minutes ago, the blur said:

Do what any lawyer would do.   Cite the section of law you are referring too.

Ticket Dismissed   !!

why risk it? just hunt land you have permission on.

[AuburnNYC]

3 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

If you’re ever arrested for trespassing make sure you make that exact argument to the judge, you’ll get off no problems!


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I don't have a dog in the fight but I actually think you would based on what I've read. I found several other places where the trespassing law is discussed.

See the blue text below.

From Cornell:

http://www2.dnr.cornell.edu/ext/info/pubs/LegalFinancial/liability_boundary_posting.htm

Note that in Penal Law 140.00, which defines the terms used above, the term "enter or remain unlawfully" is explained as follows:

A person who enters or remains upon unimproved and apparently unused land, which is neither fenced nor otherwise enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders, does so with license and privilege unless notice against trespass is personally communicated to him by the owner of such land or other authorized person, or unless such notice is given by posting in a conspicuous manner.

Leaving your property unposted. If you are one of the majority of landowners who are willing to let others use your property for recreation, and if you are seldom inconvenienced by others who use your property, consider leaving it unposted. By doing so, you may be providing a welcome service to neighbors and others who do not have sufficient property of their own for recreation. You would still have considerable control over recreational use of your property; for according to New York law, any person must leave your property upon request, even if it is not posted. Also, the results of previous court cases indicate that your recreational liability is no greater on unposted than on posted property.

A possible disadvantage to not posting your land is that although the State strongly encourages all recreationists using private lands to first request permission, this is not a legal requirement on open (unfenced), nonposted rural lands. Often property boundaries of rural lands are not apparent to recreationists. In addition, not all recreationists take the time to request permission. Thus, at any given time, recreationists may be using your property without your knowledge. If this poses a frequent problem, you may wish to consider posting your property.

 

Document Citing Legal Precedent:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjnn87_4fvlAhWLpFkKHVqiD84QFjAKegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.riverkeeper.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F06%2FTrespass-Law-in-NY.doc&usg=AOvVaw03DXgUZD6EeJT8pbd3jeBw

Based on the above, in order to prove that someone is guilty of criminal trespass, the prosecution must: (1) prove that the defendant knowingly entered or remained unlawfully in or upon land, and (2) negate the exception for unimproved or apparently unused land.1

1 See People v. Dailey, 69 Misc. 2d 691, 693 (County Ct. of N.Y. Saratoga County 1972).
 

 

[Buckmaster7600]

I don't have a dog in the fight but I actually think you would based on what I've read. I found several other places where the trespassing law is discussed.
See the blue text below.
From Cornell:
http://www2.dnr.cornell.edu/ext/info/pubs/LegalFinancial/liability_boundary_posting.htm
Note that in Penal Law 140.00, which defines the terms used above, the term "enter or remain unlawfully" is explained as follows:
A person who enters or remains upon unimproved and apparently unused land, which is neither fenced nor otherwise enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders, does so with license and privilege unless notice against trespass is personally communicated to him by the owner of such land or other authorized person, or unless such notice is given by posting in a conspicuous manner.
Leaving your property unposted. If you are one of the majority of landowners who are willing to let others use your property for recreation, and if you are seldom inconvenienced by others who use your property, consider leaving it unposted. By doing so, you may be providing a welcome service to neighbors and others who do not have sufficient property of their own for recreation. You would still have considerable control over recreational use of your property; for according to New York law, any person must leave your property upon request, even if it is not posted. Also, the results of previous court cases indicate that your recreational liability is no greater on unposted than on posted property.
A possible disadvantage to not posting your land is that although the State strongly encourages all recreationists using private lands to first request permission, this is not a legal requirement on open (unfenced), nonposted rural lands. Often property boundaries of rural lands are not apparent to recreationists. In addition, not all recreationists take the time to request permission. Thus, at any given time, recreationists may be using your property without your knowledge. If this poses a frequent problem, you may wish to consider posting your property.
 
Document Citing Legal Precedent:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjnn87_4fvlAhWLpFkKHVqiD84QFjAKegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.riverkeeper.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F06%2FTrespass-Law-in-NY.doc&usg=AOvVaw03DXgUZD6EeJT8pbd3jeBw
Based on the above, in order to prove that someone is guilty of criminal trespass, the prosecution must: (1) prove that the defendant knowingly entered or remained unlawfully in or upon land, and (2) negate the exception for unimproved or apparently unused land.1
1 See People v. Dailey, 69 Misc. 2d 691, 693 (County Ct. of N.Y. Saratoga County 1972).
 
 

“Improved” if a tree is cut, a trail is mowed, a field in tilled, anything done to the property is an improvement.

The trespassers I had trouble with a few years ago got ticketed for trespassing and my property wasn’t posted where they came into it. I had a mowed trail that they walked across and that’s why they were ticketed.


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[the blur]

The word "improved" is open to interpretation !

Just goes to show, how 10 people bashed me, when indeed there is room in the law for legit trespass.

 

I'm going hunting.   Cya !

[Jeremy K]

2 hours ago, Biz-R-OWorld said:

That's because there are parts of Dutchess County, Orange County, and some of the Catskills areas that are just as much "boonies" as anywhere else in the state. 

Here's a fun fact, I couldnt label any of those places on a map . 

[TreeGuy]

So, in this "Q&A" it says you CAN be arrested..... That's not true.



Either way. This is why I only trespass with Moog.

No, not cause he's a lawyer.... Cause I can run faster.

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[WNYBuckHunter]

2 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

OK. I just can't hold it in anymore. Anyone else just laugh their butts off when someone refers to anything below Poughkeepsie  as "Upstate" ? That whole area south of there is the city in my book. lol

I was thinking the same thing.

[WNYBuckHunter]

1 hour ago, the blur said:

I'm telling you, I remember this from my hunter safety class 35 years ago.   It's 100% legal trespassing, under certain conditions.   The trespass ticket would NOT hold up in court.

The posting laws must be adhered to as well.   They are very specific.   You can't just bang up a blank sign.   That's worthless.

 

You are 110% wrong about this. I have had people ticketed for trespassing on land that had NO posted signs. Their tickets stuck and they paid fines. I have not posted my property, and I can guarantee you, if I catch you trespassing, you will be ticketed.

Bottom line is, there are no parcels of land that are not owned by someone. It is on you, as the party that would like to utilize the land, to gain the proper permission to do so, otherwise you are leaving yourself open to legal issues, and you are just being a plain disrespectful jerk. If you dont own it, its not state land, and you dont have permission, stay off. Pretty simple really. People that carry around the "I can go wherever I want if its not posted" attitude are the reason why land access is the number 1 problem facing hunting today.

[steve863]

6 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

You are 110% wrong about this. I have had people ticketed for trespassing on land that had NO posted signs. Their tickets stuck and they paid fines. I have not posted my property, and I can guarantee you, if I catch you trespassing, you will be ticketed.

Bottom line is, there are no parcels of land that are not owned by someone. It is on you, as the party that would like to utilize the land, to gain the proper permission to do so, otherwise you are leaving yourself open to legal issues, and you are just being a plain disrespectful jerk. If you dont own it, its not state land, and you dont have permission, stay off. Pretty simple really. People that carry around the "I can go wherever I want if its not posted" attitude are the reason why land access is the number 1 problem facing hunting today.

 

Maybe in bye gone days people took the liberty to hunt any land they didn't see a posted sign on.  The world was different then, but in this day and age I just can't understand how anyone would think it's OK to hunt a piece of property like that.  Simply not the right thing to do to trample on land that you know is private without the permission of the owner.  I don't care what the technicalities in the law are.

 

 

 

 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

32 minutes ago, blackbeltbill said:

Really. Let me list one absolutely Huge Area that connects both North of the NY/NJ Border and South of it. Sterling Forest State Park- Harriman State Park- both in NY. Just South in NJ and connecting to Sterling Forest is the Long Pond Ironworks State Park. Also connecting to Sterling Forest is Ringwood State Park in NJ. Connecting to Ringwood is the Ramapo State Forest. Just South of the Long Pond Ironworks State Park is Norvin Green State Forest. Greenwood Lake separates Sterling from Abram Hewitt State Forest.  Then there is Waywayanda State Park that connects to the Newark Watershed land- hunting by permit.  Unless one really knows this area-- you can get lost quick! Not quite the City..

YES really. 

[steve863]

7 minutes ago, blackbeltbill said:

There are  medium tracts of Local land that have been hunted by Locals for Decades. One of these is near me in Bloomingrove. I have hunted that area since 1974. At 10.30am this morning in driving past on Tuthill Road-- 3 Trucks were parked and Deer hunters were out.  I had a Thread about this subject some time ago and Dirt Time and, I had a long exchange. Probably many hundreds of Locals - in the know--- have hunted it. OCFSCs used to release Pheasants on this Land off of Tuthill Road. It is probably around 300+ acres.

I'm assuming this land is private, correct?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

10 minutes ago, blackbeltbill said:

There are  medium tracts of Local land that have been hunted by Locals for Decades. One of these is near me in Bloomingrove. I have hunted that area since 1974. At 10.30am this morning in driving past on Tuthill Road-- 3 Trucks were parked and Deer hunters were out.  I had a Thread about this subject some time ago and Dirt Time and, I had a long exchange. Probably many hundreds of Locals - in the know--- have hunted it. OCFSCs used to release Pheasants on this Land off of Tuthill Road. It is probably around 300+ acres.

AND that is becasue the owners CHOOSE not to make it an issue. In reality it is still trespassing. 

[AuburnNYC]

8 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Bottom line is, there are no parcels of land that are not owned by someone. It is on you, as the party that would like to utilize the land, to gain the proper permission to do so, otherwise you are leaving yourself open to legal issues, and you are just being a plain disrespectful jerk. If you dont own it, its not state land, and you dont have permission, stay off. Pretty simple really. People that carry around the "I can go wherever I want if its not posted" attitude are the reason why land access is the number 1 problem facing hunting today.

I would agree with this.  Also helps the image of hunters with the general public. I'm actually pretty surprised the law is written this way but it's probably just from an older era and NY has more important legislative issues to deal with.

There's also nothing stopping an officer from writing the ticket and/or arresting you which then puts the ball in your court to either defend yourself in court or hire a lawyer... The potential legal issues/headaches would not be fun.

WNYBuckHunter - What was the basis of the tickets "sticking" or did they just not fight it? Were there improvements of any kind on the land? Had you run the guys off at some point?

Buckmaster7600 - Definitely agree with that having a mowed trail, greenfield, cabin, etc. would likely qualify the land as "improved" and leave it open for interpretation. Since they walked across the field there is no denying that they "were not aware" of the improvement, which definitely qualifies them as trespassing.