fatal shooting in st lawrence county last evening.

[defrazzle]

Look, you can dance around the issue in any way that you want, but you absolutely cannot dispute those numbers. Put any spin on it that you wish, but you still do not get past the reality of data. As far as people becoming conditioned to shoot things that are not orange, there is no data to support that.....none. It's a nice sounding story for those that want to bury their heads in the sand in the face of real data, but no one has shown any study or reason to believe that it actually happens.

And yes, I definitely caught the unmistakeable macho linkage in your post. Funny stuff, but perhaps an attitude held by far too many hunters.

Doc - can you point me to where I can read this data? Seriously - no sarcasm here.

As far as people becoming conditioned to shoot things that are not orange, there is no data to support that.....none. ...

OK, there may not be any data, but that does not mean it does not occur. Data can be used to support many theories, but if the data acquisition is flawed, well the outcome may be flawed also or just support what the initiator wants you to believe. Having not read the data (I hope to) I can only rely on my logical approach and what I have learned over the past 50 years. I wonder how many non-hunters, those not wearing HO and traversing hunting lands and territory got shot? Will a law be coming soon that will require any living person or animal to wear HO during the hunting seasons? Just wondering - not hoping.

[bubba]

I WARNED you. You are not an instructor are you? If so, you are not allowed this opinion. Just remember they base their beliefs and opinions on where everyone either gets shot at, or claim they were shot at on a regular basis. They must all be pretty bad shots, as those who get shot at are rarely hit. They do not understand the North Country where you can go hunt and other hunters do not see you as fair game. So take it for what it is and be thankful we are away from all the foolishness.

[bubba]

And back to the original post, the idiot took responsibility for his actions and saved us a lot of money for a trial. Is the penalty stiff enough? Not even close. But it is what it is.

[adirondackbushwhack]

Look, you can dance around the issue in any way that you want, but you absolutely cannot dispute those numbers. Put any spin on it that you wish, but you still do not get past the reality of data. As far as people becoming conditioned to shoot things that are not orange, there is no data to support that.....none. It's a nice sounding story for those that want to bury their heads in the sand in the face of real data, but no one has shown any study or reason to believe that it actually happens.

And yes, I definitely caught the unmistakeable macho linkage in your post. Funny stuff, but perhaps an attitude held by far too many hunters.

I'm not dancing around the issue I'm voicing a thought different form the one you are comfortable with. One that there is no data to dispute either I might add. The data that you put forth does not dispute my claim of possibility; it is focused too narrow to do anything but support a single claim that blaze orange sometimes makes a hunter more visable.

macho linkage?

Edited July 19, 2012 by adirondackbushwhack

[Doc]

Doc - can you point me to where I can read this data? Seriously - no sarcasm here.

As far as people becoming conditioned to shoot things that are not orange, there is no data to support that.....none. ...

OK, there may not be any data, but that does not mean it does not occur. Data can be used to support many theories, but if the data acquisition is flawed, well the outcome may be flawed also or just support what the initiator wants you to believe. Having not read the data (I hope to) I can only rely on my logical approach and what I have learned over the past 50 years. I wonder how many non-hunters, those not wearing HO and traversing hunting lands and territory got shot? Will a law be coming soon that will require any living person or animal to wear HO during the hunting seasons? Just wondering - not hoping.

Ok, and yet one more time : http://www.cdc.gov/m...ml/00044112.htm

The info on this page is simply a raw compilation of actual shooting incidents that anyone can interpret for themselves. Other than outright falsification, there really is no way for flaws to enter in. It is what it is. Take a look. It is actually very interesting stuff for anybody that is interested.

As far as the theory of hunters becoming conditioned to shoot anything that isn't orange, I give that the same credibility that I would give any other unfounded, unproven, and unsupported notion. Show me the data and I'll become a believer. Otherwise, I consider it to be simply someone's pipe-dream or made up story to validate an otherwise indefensible need for not wearing blaze orange.

[adirondackbushwhack]

Ok, and yet one more time : http://www.cdc.gov/m...ml/00044112.htm

The info on this page is simply a raw compilation of actual shooting incidents that anyone can interpret for themselves. Other than outright falsification, there really is no way for flaws to enter in. It is what it is. Take a look. It is actually very interesting stuff for anybody that is interested.

As far as the theory of hunters becoming conditioned to shoot anything that isn't orange, I give that the same credibility that I would give any other unfounded, unproven, and unsupported notion. Show me the data and I'll become a believer. Otherwise, I consider it to be simply someone's pipe-dream or made up story to validate an otherwise indefensible need for not wearing blaze orange.

Indefensible??????

Really???

Maybe indefensible for stand hunters, or sitters but certainly not indefensible for trackers, stalkers, still hunters or bow hunters. Hunting in these fashions requires a hunter to try and go unnoticed by game and blaze orange has the opposite affect from that desired by those who hunt in these ways.

[growalot]

Hunting in these fashions requires a hunter to try and go unnoticed by game and blaze orange has the opposite affect from that desired by those who hunt in these ways.

OK now that statement is just blowing smoke...period...and science backs me up on this...besides a life time of experience...you should have stopped with just your toes.....

[nyantler]

Ok, and yet one more time : http://www.cdc.gov/m...ml/00044112.htm

The info on this page is simply a raw compilation of actual shooting incidents that anyone can interpret for themselves. Other than outright falsification, there really is no way for flaws to enter in. It is what it is. Take a look. It is actually very interesting stuff for anybody that is interested.

As far as the theory of hunters becoming conditioned to shoot anything that isn't orange, I give that the same credibility that I would give any other unfounded, unproven, and unsupported notion. Show me the data and I'll become a believer. Otherwise, I consider it to be simply someone's pipe-dream or made up story to validate an otherwise indefensible need for not wearing blaze orange.

The info is nice if you're just looking for numbers... but doesn't tell the real reason hunters get shot... it is because the shooter was usually shooting at movement without identifying the target... would blaze orange have made a difference? My guess would be yes... but as you stated.. without any hard evidence.. we can't be sure.

[nyantler]

OK now that statement is just blowing smoke...period...and science backs me up on this...besides a life time of experience...you should have stopped with just your toes.....

Although there is an advantage to wearing snow camo while tracking in snow... I have killed many bucks while tracking and wearing orange... so you are correct that the statement isn't correct... I find that wearing camo with an orange hat works just as well as all camo... so thats what I do... it just gives me some piece of mind that I will be visible to other hunters.

[adirondackbushwhack]

OK now that statement is just blowing smoke...period...and science backs me up on this...besides a life time of experience...you should have stopped with just your toes.....

Ha Let me guess your gonna sight some studies that say deer can't see blaze orange? Believe me grow if I was more invisible to deer in blaze than I am to them in camo I would be wearing it and so would all of the other bow hunters who are currently wearing camo instead of BO. So go blow your smoke someplace else on that subject all one needs to do is hunt in blaze and camo alternatly to know what is what and it won't take long to figure it out either.

[adirondackbushwhack]

Although there is an advantage to wearing snow camo while tracking in snow... I have killed many bucks while tracking and wearing orange... so you are correct that the statement isn't correct... I find that wearing camo with an orange hat works just as well as all camo... so thats what I do... it just gives me some piece of mind that I will be visible to other hunters.

Why bother with the camo at all why not just orange?

[Doc]

The info is nice if you're just looking for numbers... but doesn't tell the real reason hunters get shot... it is because the shooter was usually shooting at movement without identifying the target... would blaze orange have made a difference? My guess would be yes... but as you stated.. without any hard evidence.. we can't be sure.

Anyone who thinks that blaze orange is some kind of magic protection that makes you bullet-proof is just as mistaken as those who try to deny its effectiveness. Blaze orange does not make people smarter or more concerned with safe hunting. It doesn't stop irrational hunting behavior or blinding excitement. It is not a cure-all, and it is a foolish person who thinks so.

Blaze orange does enhance a hunter's visibility. It does improve dramatically the distinction between a human and an animal. It is a visual color that is designed to catch the eye of other hunters as an alert that there is another hunter in the area, possibly within lethal shooting distance. Don't expect more than that. But also, don't ignore what it does do.

[nyantler]

Because in snow deer see orange as a darker color so you don't blend in quite as well against the white snowy background... and because they don't yet make a good orange camo pattern that blends in with most surroundings.. I find that an orange hat is quite visible even at a distance by other hunters, but isn't enough of for a deer to get alarmed about if the rest of your body blends in with the surroundings...

[adirondackbushwhack]

Anyone who thinks that blaze orange is some kind of magic protection that makes you bullet-proof is just as mistaken as those who try to deny its effectiveness. Blaze orange does not make people smarter or more concerned with safe hunting. It doesn't stop irrational hunting behavior or blinding excitement. It is not a cure-all, and it is a foolish person who thinks so.

Blaze orange does enhance a hunter's visibility. It does improve dramatically the distinction between a human and an animal. It is a visual color that is designed to catch the eye of other hunters as an alert that there is another hunter in the area, possibly within lethal shooting distance. Don't expect more than that. But also, don't ignore what it does do.

On that doc I can completly agree with you.

[adirondackbushwhack]

Because in snow deer see orange as a darker color so you don't blend in quite as well against the white snowy background... and because they don't yet make a good orange camo pattern that blends in with most surroundings.. I find that an orange hat is quite visible even at a distance by other hunters, but isn't enough of for a deer to get alarmed about if the rest of your body blends in with the surroundings...

So then when there is no snow you wear all orange?

[nyantler]

Anyone who thinks that blaze orange is some kind of magic protection that makes you bullet-proof is just as mistaken as those who try to deny its effectiveness. Blaze orange does not make people smarter or more concerned with safe hunting. It doesn't stop irrational hunting behavior or blinding excitement. It is not a cure-all, and it is a foolish person who thinks so.

Blaze orange does enhance a hunter's visibility. It does improve dramatically the distinction between a human and an animal. It is a visual color that is designed to catch the eye of other hunters as an alert that there is another hunter in the area, possibly within lethal shooting distance. Don't expect more than that. But also, don't ignore what it does do.

I agree.. but I also think that the number of hunting accidents isn't large enough to think that mandatory orange would necessarily drop those numbers significantly... especially since some of the hunter accidents still involve hunter orange being present (about 5%)... and because there is no data supporting that any of the accidents absolutely would have been avoided had the hunters been wearing orange we therefore can not conclude that mandatory hunter orange would change those numbers.. "I give that the same credibility that I would give any other unfounded, unproven, and unsupported notion. Show me the data and I will become a believer." Until then I think it is good policy to inform hunters of the benefits of wearing orange and let them make a choice.

[defrazzle]

I WARNED you. You are not an instructor are you? If so, you are not allowed this opinion. Just remember they base their beliefs and opinions on where everyone either gets shot at, or claim they were shot at on a regular basis. They must all be pretty bad shots, as those who get shot at are rarely hit. They do not understand the North Country where you can go hunt and other hunters do not see you as fair game. So take it for what it is and be thankful we are away from all the foolishness.

Nope, not an instructor in the pure sense of the definition, but when I invite people to hunt with me, I do instruct if they are willing to listen and learn.

About 7 years ago I hunted one time with a person from this area and who was leasing a small cabin near my camp. I noticed that during our discussions he seemed awful anxious to shoot a deer as he tells me he had not for over 10 years. Fast forward to the next weekend where he and his brother both were hunting on the other side of our valley. Right around dusk, he heard noises coming through the bush. Deer....no, it was his brother. He shot him square in the chest with a 30-06. He was dead before he hit the ground. Helicopter and state police arrived.......well you can imagine the rest. It was a mess. His lawyer called me and asked whether I would testify that the reason his brother got shot was attributed to him not wearing hunter orange!. I told the lawyer that I did not agree, he shot his brother because he did not identify his target and was anxious to shoot a deer! Once I said that he did not ask me to testify. Moral of this real life experience taught me that mistakes are made because of human error, lack of training, anxiousness, nervousness, etc. Could HO have prevented this unexplainable death? Probably/Maybe - but we will never know. I really believe that some people are not meant to be hunters -they don't have the mental capacity. Mandating HO is another way to provide an aid to those same hunters. I am very thankful that the 100,000 acres I have access to has limited entry points and most hunters will not undertake the energy or challenge to hunt this area.

I am so thankful for the Adirondack Park - 6 million acres of public and private lands forever protected from untethered development! Check out Bloomingdale in Google Earth or Maps/Google and you will see what I mean.

[defrazzle]

By the way - the two brothers were about 48 & 52......

[bubba]

Well anyone who is not afraid to go in the woods glowing is welcome at my camp anytime. No No that would not be fair. Anyone who has not called me names or pointed out I am an instructor or has not made the idiots list can come over. No matter what you wear, I can guarantee you no one will shoot at you

[growalot]

ooppps leaves me out...lol Happy hunting though...

[fasteddie]

During gun season , I hunt wearing some sort of Blaze Orange . I have solid orange and the break-up orange pattern with an orange hat .

I think it would be a mistake to make it mandatory . If it was mandatory hunters would look for the BO and if they saw movement without spotting the BO would probably shoot . And ...... I am sure hunters would hunt without it .

[burmjohn]

Well anyone who is not afraid to go in the woods glowing is welcome at my camp anytime. No No that would not be fair. Anyone who has not called me names or pointed out I am an instructor or has not made the idiots list can come over. No matter what you wear, I can guarantee you no one will shoot at you

I'm game! This isnt you though right? Because his name is bubba from NY

[bubba]

nope not me. Not putting a tag on my back. Here in the frozen north, we do not have to do that either. I am not sure why, but I have a theory. I will keep it to myself, so I do not start another war. I will say it goes along the same premise as all the other "safety and protection" the state and everyone thinks we need.

[nyantler]

Well anyone who is not afraid to go in the woods glowing is welcome at my camp anytime. No No that would not be fair. Anyone who has not called me names or pointed out I am an instructor or has not made the idiots list can come over. No matter what you wear, I can guarantee you no one will shoot at you

I think I qualify... although I'm not sure whether or not I'm on the idiot list.. that is entiely possible..

[NFA-ADK]

I like how they wanted him to say it was BO that caused the accident or lack thier of and then did not ask him to testify when that was not the case.

I agree with the statement that not everyone is made out to be a hunter. But NYS does not believe that.

I personaly feel the safety course should be harder and made so IF YOU ARE a idiot you will have a hard time getting a licence to hunt. I just feel like NYS makes it impossible to fail the course wich is BS IMO. Anything for more revenue, who cares if some idiot hunter gets killed because of it, they do not like hunters anyway so they could care less if one is killed by another, IMO.

Wonder if they decieded to exclude this guy who was wearing BO to make the 5% list and how many more things are excluded from our "stats" to get a point across.

The thing that saves more people every year is common sense. Unfortunatly not everyone has this... BO will help for idiots who should not be in the woods and shoot before they know what they are shooting at. I guese NYS thinks thier are more idiots down south than up North, I think I agree considering the city is filled with them. Sucks that idiots can have drivers license because they travel up north too.

Guy tells me a story about him and his brother hunting in one of our state parks. He says the bear was so close to his brother he could hear him breathing yet was afraid to turn around and confront the bear. I do not know about any of you but if a bear is a few feet behind me and I have a gun you can be dam sure I am going to turn around and see WT heck is going on, not this guy. Even if I did not have a gun...

Fear, ignorance of the woods and complacancy I would argue cause more accidents than anything we wear will ever protect us...

Wear BO so the other idiot in your area does not shoot you, make it mandatory around any area of woods for anyone during any hunting season, please help save us from our selves NYS we need more government control. No smoking while driving, no radio on while driving, no TV, computer, phone or GPS device they distract too much and can cause a accident... No smoking in your house or candles permited they can cause a fire. No drinking water or any other liquid while driving, you could spill and cause a accident. ETC ETC ETC save us NYS from ourselves we need you more than ever... BLa bla bla

OK time for lunch...