What is this country coming to??

[nyantler]

He did, he did!! LOL... Gotta give him credit too.. he was up on his history.. good job Doe!!

[Doewhacker]

He did, he did!! LOL... Gotta give him credit too.. he was up on his history.. good job Doe!!

I guess all of those hours spent watching odd informative shows worked..why I watch them and retain info I'll never know. lol

[Dave]

I guess all of those hours spent watching odd informative shows worked..why I watch them and retain info I'll never know. lol

And the internet helps too.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Both sides of the political spectrum aren't worth a poop if you haven't noticed.

Wow I have been out of town. I sure missed a bunch. I ca't agree more Doe. BOTH parties are a big steaming pile. The issue for me in the voting process though is trying to select the lesser of two evils. Which side will just have the country slide down the slope as opposed to falling off a cliff. Great choice we have. I find myself just trying to sift through and find the which candidates at least SAY that they share some thoughts that believe in.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

It's funny the way you guys attack anyone with a differing opinion or perspective- immediately dismissing any thought process other than your own as naive and misguided. Then, you're so quick to make accusations of name calling, while declaring yourselves to be the stewards of 'patriotism and family values'. The best part is the religious photographs next to names of the guys posting hateful rhetoric. So many of you love to suggest that this website should be for right wing extremists only- then, you like to make silly statements about the values that this country was founded upon. I've always found hypocrits to be fascinating- and these threads never disappoint.

Extremeists? I really don't want to be associated with anything at the extreme limits. I think you would have to admit though that it should not be a suprise to see members of a hunting or gun forum leaning to the right side of an issue.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

And by the way, I am sure our US military is strong enough to take care of us and will not likely need a few guys with hunting rifles missing the hypothetical enemy.

I guess this is where I see a less "patriotic" approch by the liberal side. I do believe we need a strong military presence. There is only so much tax money to go around. If we continue to push forward social programs ther has to be cuts in other areas. It will end up being the military. I hope there never comes a day when those hunting rifles are needed. I would love to see a world where an arm is never raised against another human. But I just don't think that is realistic. Plain and simple I sleep pretty well with the armed forces we have and I don't trust nations like the Chinese.

[shawnhu]

I look at it more that the school is not promoting anything.. the private individuals attending the school are just excercising their religious rights... the school itselfs and its officials I agree should not promote such things, but they should not be keeping kids from expressing their rights if they so choose.. school songs, slogans, or even maybe school prayers would have been created by the kids that attended the school and wouldn't have been imposed by the school officials or any government... if it has been good enough for the majority of the students for so many years and has been accepted by that majority.. I don't see the problem... I see it more as the will of the people not the imposition of the state

I sure am glad they got rid of that pledge of allegence song from public schools. I thought that was a violation of my first ammendment rights. Am I going to get slack for saying that?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I NEVER said I or anyone that holds the same thoughts and values as me are stewards of patriotism or family values but I can assure you that Liberals are not. it is directly contradictory to their beliefs.

I'd love for you to expand on this. Are you saying that anyone who you consider 'liberal' is anti-America and has no 'family values'. What exactly do you mean? I'd like you to explain to me, seeing as you know me so well, how i have no 'family values', and why you deem me unpatriotic. And, please use facts, as you requested earlier. Are you and your like minded cronies in charge of determining the definition of word 'patriot'? You've got guys on this thread insulting all non-Christian religions and proclaiming America to be 'a Christian country'; and others declaring themselves ready to 'defend' themselves from anyone they feels 'threatens' the christianity of the country. These posts sit well with you; but, you label 'liberals' as unpatriotic and without 'family values'. Again, i love the hypocrisy.

Let me try to explain. Liberals and Conservatives are very different outlooks on issues. I think you are an good person. i really like jousting with you. But we are usually on different sides of issues like this. what i may think will lead to a degradation of the country you see as building us up and visa versa. SO supporting an issue to me seems "unpartiotic" to me as many of my supported issues seem to you. We have different views that normally go 180 degress from each other.

I do not pretend to know you. Never said I did and You combined the family and values together. I posted them as seperate items. But as I said in the paragraph above we see things differently. from what I have seen you post in the past I assume you are pro choice. I am not. I feel it has contributed to the downfall of our family unit. I also think that social programs have done the same. Liberals seem to view these as helping people and as a womans rights issue. Typically (not everyone) Liberals share your view and conservatives share mine. who is right? I think my views are and they think theirs are.

In terms of values. This is probably the most subjective. I hate to use the term again but Typically, most leberals and conservatives see values differently. Not always on oposite ends of the spectrum but a different shade of a color on some and vastly different on others. Lets say responsibility. I see it as an individuals responsibility to look after the welfare of themselves and their family. Some Liberals share that but some believe it is society's responsibility to look after the well being of each individual. I can't see their view as correct and they can't see mine. I believe this is really based on upbringing and the importance or view of a value that each parent places on it. That is usually conveyed to the children.

Do these differences mean that either of us are wrong....Hell yes you are always wrong...lol. (really meant humor there) But with both sides feeling that their way is the "best" way to an end. There will always be conflict and strong emotion. And in the end that is probably the balance that is needed. I just an not totally sold on a represtative Govt. It seems to me that the majorities views are not always represented as they would be in a democracy.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I sure am glad they got rid of that pledge of allegence song from public schools. I thought that was a violation of my first ammendment rights. Am I going to get slack for saying that?

Probably are...lol.

Yo uknow how th eold saying goes. If the a guy who believes in God is wrong we just all end up as worm food and no one knows the difference. But if the Athiest is wrong......

If I were in Vegas I know how I would be betting.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Culvercreek hunt club

[Dave]

I sure am glad they got rid of that pledge of allegence song from public schools. I thought that was a violation of my first ammendment rights. Am I going to get slack for saying that?

Can you elaborate on what it is that offends you? And what possessed you to make such a comment?

[shawnhu]

Hey Dave,

I'm not really much for religion, so when I was a kid growing up, I didn't really appreciate being told to sing a song that involves God.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

I do believe in the rest of the pledge, however.

This discussion came up for me in the past, so it struck a cord, hence it was posted. This is in reference to seperation of church and state.

[Dave]

Hey Dave,

I'm not really much for religion, so when I was a kid growing up, I didn't really appreciate being told to sing a song that involves God.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

I do believe in the rest of the pledge, however.

This discussion came up for me in the past, so it struck a cord, hence it was posted. This is in reference to seperation of church and state.

Don't think you should get flack for that position.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Hey Dave,

I'm not really much for religion, so when I was a kid growing up, I didn't really appreciate being told to sing a song that involves God.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

I do believe in the rest of the pledge, however.

This discussion came up for me in the past, so it struck a cord, hence it was posted. This is in reference to seperation of church and state.

I would have a problem with anyone telling my child to recite something they did not believe in. I would tell my daughter she needed to stand and show respect though.

Did it offend you to hear it or was it just the mandated participation that bothered you?

[nyantler]

I sure am glad they got rid of that pledge of allegence song from public schools. I thought that was a violation of my first ammendment rights. Am I going to get slack for saying that?

You don't think our country is worth pledging allegence to? I'm guessing... you probably were absent for the history class where they teach you about all the men and women that gave their lives to make sure you don't have to. I think that anyone that understands the sacrifice people have made for you to have that freedom at all.... would be more than happy to pledge an allegence to the flag and the republic for which it stands... I could be wrong... maybe your allegence is to someone or something else... all this freedom you take for granted is just a bunch of crap anyway huh?

[WNYBuckHunter]

He did say he agrees with the pledge, other than the under god part. I dont see anything wrong with that.

[Early]

I agree...no need for the Under God bit. That was inserted well after the fact to try to declare the US more "Godly" as we became more deeply mired in a pissing contest with the Russians. Imagine: Add a stupid phrase and claim superiority over our enemies!

[WNYBuckHunter]

I only meant that I dont think its a big deal if he didnt agree with the under god part. Not that I think it should be removed. If you dont agree with it, just skip saying that part of the pledge. Easy peasy.

[shawnhu]

I would have a problem with anyone telling my child to recite something they did not believe in. I would tell my daughter she needed to stand and show respect though.

Did it offend you to hear it or was it just the mandated participation that bothered you?

It bothered me that it was mandatory to recite the pledge. I would have had no problem standing there.

You don't think our country is worth pledging allegence to? I'm guessing... you probably were absent for the history class where they teach you about all the men and women that gave their lives to make sure you don't have to. I think that anyone that understands the sacrifice people have made for you to have that freedom at all.... would be more than happy to pledge an allegence to the flag and the republic for which it stands... I could be wrong... maybe your allegence is to someone or something else... all this freedom you take for granted is just a bunch of crap anyway huh?

nyantler, unfortunately, you represent a lot of guys on here, that don't seem to want to fully read and comprehend the statement, and jumping to conclusions. No offence meant by that, just the way I see it.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I agree...no need for the Under God bit. That was inserted well after the fact to try to declare the US more "Godly" as we became more deeply mired in a pissing contest with the Russians. Imagine: Add a stupid phrase and claim superiority over our enemies!

was that the motivation for the versus of the National anthem too? Those words were coined way before that and it actually refers to God. It is the basis for the motto "In God We Trust". Your view of the topic of God seems very negative. I am not saying it is bad that you don't believe but you seem very hostile at his mention.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Culvercreek hunt club

[Culvercreek hunt club]

It bothered me that it was mandatory to recite the pledge. I would have had no problem standing there.

I can fully respect that. I have stood thorough prayes and cerimonies that I did not agree with our of respect for friends or family or the cerimony itself. Not one thing wrong with that approach

[shawnhu]

Culvercreek,

If the statement of hostility of God's mention towards me, I would tell you that I am not hostile towards the man, but the fact that this country was supposed to have been found on the principles of seperate church and state, yet we see the "In God We Trust" everywhere, is somewhat confusing.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

No Shawn it was in response to the quote I posted from Early.

This is my take and I know Doe and NYantler already went down this road. I do not believe that the original founders meant to eliminated God from Government. I believe they didn't want to impose a mandated religion similiar to many of the countries from which they/their ancestors fled. I believe they acknowledged a higher being and since their frame of reference was Christian it was called God. Personally I see the efforts to take out God from all aspects to be disheartening.

I think it was doe that had asked a question earlier about wheter seeing an islamic or Aribic prayer would bother some. It generally wouldn't bother medepending on the content. If it prayed for help in ridding the world of the infidels I probably wouldn't take to it, but if it was a message towards good and genuine heartfelt emotion I would have a problem with it.

I do have a problem with my neice (My God-daughter) being told that the cross necklace I gave her for her first communion had to be worn inside her shirt so it wasn't visible. My sister wouldn't let me make a big deal out of it so I didn't. But that IS what the founding fathers were trying to avoid. We shouldn't all be told to wear a cross but if we choose to it should be our choice and not kept from of for fear of offending someone.

[nyantler]

It bothered me that it was mandatory to recite the pledge. I would have had no problem standing there.

nyantler, unfortunately, you represent a lot of guys on here, that don't seem to want to fully read and comprehend the statement, and jumping to conclusions. No offence meant by that, just the way I see it.

Just because I believe that you have the right not to say the pledge.. doesn't mean I won't take offense to it.. I take great offense to that lack of respect for the country and our flag.. and make no apologies for it.

[shawnhu]

No Shawn it was in response to the quote I posted from Early.

This is my take and I know Doe and NYantler already went down this road. I do not believe that the original founders meant to eliminated God from Government. I believe they didn't want to impose a mandated religion similiar to many of the countries from which they/their ancestors fled. I believe they acknowledged a higher being and since their frame of reference was Christian it was called God. Personally I see the efforts to take out God from all aspects to be disheartening.

I think it was doe that had asked a question earlier about wheter seeing an islamic or Aribic prayer would bother some. It generally wouldn't bother medepending on the content. If it prayed for help in ridding the world of the infidels I probably wouldn't take to it, but if it was a message towards good and genuine heartfelt emotion I would have a problem with it.

I do have a problem with my neice (My God-daughter) being told that the cross necklace I gave her for her first communion had to be worn inside her shirt so it wasn't visible. My sister wouldn't let me make a big deal out of it so I didn't. But that IS what the founding fathers were trying to avoid. We shouldn't all be told to wear a cross but if we choose to it should be our choice and not kept from of for fear of offending someone.

Aside from the removing of religion from government, I agree with everything you've said. However, I do feel that religion, in the right context, does help those that need direction and reinforce morals, and we all know we as a country could use more of that.

[shawnhu]

Just because I believe that you have the right not to say the pledge.. doesn't mean I won't take offense to it.. I take great offense to that lack of respect for the country and our flag.. and make no apologies for it.

Good for you, now try to re-read what I stated about the pledge and what I disliked about it.