Food plot help for next year- rough soil

[pitbill]

Hey- 

I have 78 acres that id like to put some food plots on in Delaware County...the area is full of shale, if you dig more than a few inches you run into shale, and a bunch of it. (large, small and tiny pieces every ware) . I have two tractors, a kubota BX24 (24 hp)  and a LS MT350 (50 hp) and a few implements ( 7 ft disc, 4 ft rototiller, 7 ft blade, and a 6 ft landscape rake- all came from a previous property that had great soil.). How would you guys attack this type of soil? I figure ill spray it down with herbicide, then disc it until i get some kind of seed bed- how's that sound? Also what would work for seed in this kind of soil...i was thinking for a fall plot rape, kale or radish- and for a spring plot maybe some peas or some type of spring /summer mix. Thanks for any advice- im at a loss with soil like this, but it can grow stuff and the property is full of woods and has over 20 acres of old pastures. 

[land 1]

my land /plots are full of rocks and shale you may want to get a harrow drag instead of a tiller rocks are rough on tiller get soil test and go from there, low ph go with rye or wheat, or add lime, brassica mix grows fine for me, its not the rocks that dictate what you grow its ph

[LET EM GROW]

Our plots are full of shale as well. ITs a PITA.. if your set on breaking ground you should use a harrow drag, but the only down fall is it will bring up a ton of rock. A disk would be your second best option. A tiller would take a serious beating, I know mine did.

The problem with shale is(if your not going to pick rock after your scratch the soil) you wont be able to pack or roll your soil/seeds for good contact. Your rock will be in your way and also be covering up a ton of surface area where your seeds could be growing. If this makes sense..

I highly recommend trying the poor mans/no till methods or a no till drill, when you have rock problems. IF you have the funds to double crop, and utilize summer, fall and winter blends in your plots, you wont ever have to worry about rocks again.  I do the poor mans no till plantings with ease and great results, providing it snot dry planting conditions. Done it with all seeds besides field corn. No till methods with good seed blends will treat you very well sir. 4 or 5 seeds that aid in herd health as well as work your soil for you, aid in soil health and help you with your next planting, all at the same time..  

[Team Hoyt]

38 minutes ago, LET EM GROW said:

Our plots are full of shale as well. ITs a PITA.. if your set on breaking ground you should use a harrow drag, but the only down fall is it will bring up a ton of rock. A disk would be your second best option. A tiller would take a serious beating, I know mine did.

The problem with shale is(if your not going to pick rock after your scratch the soil) you wont be able to pack or roll your soil/seeds for good contact. Your rock will be in your way and also be covering up a ton of surface area where your seeds could be growing. If this makes sense..

I highly recommend trying the poor mans/no till methods or a no till drill, when you have rock problems. IF you have the funds to double crop, and utilize summer, fall and winter blends in your plots, you wont ever have to worry about rocks again.  I do the poor mans no till plantings with ease and great results, providing it snot dry planting conditions. Done it with all seeds besides field corn. No till methods with good seed blends will treat you very well sir. 4 or 5 seeds that aid in herd health as well as work your soil for you, aid in soil health and help you with your next planting, all at the same time..  

I tried the no till method this year on old logging roads. Terrible results. We used a leaf blower and cleared all leaves away. Sprayed 41% gly (3 treatments) had no weeds etc just plain dirt. Threw done brassicas, clover, wheat. Nothing grew. Im thinking the soil was to compacted? So next year I'm hoping to have a harrow break up the soil a bit. We had a disc on the Atv that did nothing. So hopefully the harrow will loosen it up enough that I can disc it, then plant

[LET EM GROW]

1 hour ago, Team Hoyt said:

I tried the no till method this year on old logging roads. Terrible results. We used a leaf blower and cleared all leaves away. Sprayed 41% gly (3 treatments) had no weeds etc just plain dirt. Threw done brassicas, clover, wheat. Nothing grew. Im thinking the soil was to compacted? So next year I'm hoping to have a harrow break up the soil a bit. We had a disc on the Atv that did nothing. So hopefully the harrow will loosen it up enough that I can disc it, then plant

Possibly, but if you have weeds growing id like to think its not to compacted. logging rds unless really wide.. are hard to get brassicas to grow. Did you make sure your seed was fresh? as in the test date? Also, you need good steady rain to get seeds to germinate so timing plantings are crucial. As birds will pick seeds as well. Its also best to terminate your weeds spread your seeds into and lay your dead weeds over top of your seeds. You can try the harrow drag and see what happens. It sometimes does take a decent disking to start a good no till process. 

[Team Hoyt]

13 minutes ago, LET EM GROW said:

Possibly, but if you have weeds growing id like to think its not to compacted. logging rds unless really wide.. are hard to get brassicas to grow. Did you make sure your seed was fresh? as in the test date? Also, you need good steady rain to get seeds to germinate so timing plantings are crucial. As birds will pick seeds as well. Its also best to terminate your weeds spread your seeds into and lay your dead weeds over top of your seeds. You can try the harrow drag and see what happens. It sometimes does take a decent disking to start a good no till process. 

Thanks. What would you suggest planting for logging roads. We have no way to get tractors in or anything other than a atv and plant by hand

[land 1]

rye grain

[Berniez]

1.       Before you plant anything: Get a soil test and find out if anything will grow

2.       Don’t expect anything to grow without sunlight so whatever you plant match its sunlight requirements.  Example:  a. Full sun is considered six or more hours of direct sunlight per day. It doesn’t need to be six continuous hours, but the light needs to be direct, full sun. b. Partial sun refers to four to six hours of direct sunlight per day. Etc.

Once you figure out how much sunlight you have then plant what will grow. Example:    

 Fruiting Vegetables: 8 hours of direct sunlight. Such as Soybean, Corn, sunflowers

                Root Vegetables: 6 hours of direct sunlight Ex. turnips, radishes etc.

                Green/Leafy Vegetables: 4 hours of direct sunlight kale, rape etc.

I’ve found if you want clover ….it likes >5 hours otherwise it grows but cannot stand any pressure and will be week and straggly.

3.       Most of those no-till products are hype unless you have a no-till planter. Even No Till needs a inch or two of dirt to really be successful.  Last 3 years I’ve planted 15 acres of no till and have had mixed results. Weeds are a big problem and while you don’t need a clean field you need to give the crops a chance to grow. (Personally I prefer a weedy crop field as the game  [rabbits turkeys and pheasant included] like the cover and hangs around longer in the AM in a weedy field before getting into cover.   So weed control is essential if you want perennials to last and field crops to give the deer the groceries they need.

1.       So.. concentrate on making enough crop debris to make enough dirt to grow what you want. It may take a year or two but once you have it….it’ll make your life a lot easier to grow something.

4.      With all that rock sounds like your tiller will need lots of shear pins to get anything done. Five of my acres are so rocky I’d destroy that piece of equipment in 1 year.  You may be better off selling it and picking something else that will not be ruined so quickly.

5.       Get a 500lb broadcast 3ptspreader. You can do a lot with it.

6.       I purchased a Kasco 6’Eco-drill No Till planter 3 years ago and it works like a charm.  I can plant anything from clover, switchgrass, cereal rye, barley, kale, radishes, turnips, rape, to corn/soybeans without issue. (as long as your rows widths are in multiples of 7 inches.  (My corn is in 21 inch rows, sorghum 14 inches and soybeans and clover work well at 7 inches.)  It’s a one pass machine, meaning set your row width, then your depth (1/8 inch to 1 inch) fill the planet and go. It even has a cultipacker on it.  No discing, plowing or anything else. (Of course you still need to spray and lime/fertilize but this is so much easier and faster.)  I’m going to get rid of my grain seeded, and JD 4 row corn/soybean/sorghum planter and maybe my drags this spring.  Note: on the JD the fertilizer bins are shot but it still plants.

7.        Kasco makes smaller no tills for ATV’s and small tractors  as well as other companies but am I satisfied with this machine.

So see what your soil needs, makes sure you have enough dirt available to get he seed in the ground and know what will grow (Not what you want grow) by the hours of sunlight available before you waste money and get disappointed.   Hopefully I have attached a few of the bucks that are walking around or killed in the last few years in my food plots.

[LET EM GROW]

On 11/3/2020 at 10:25 AM, Team Hoyt said:

Thanks. What would you suggest planting for logging roads. We have no way to get tractors in or anything other than a atv and plant by hand

I wouls suggest a soil test since your first method failed. Though it can be a number of different things. 

Rule of thumb is the Cereal Rye will grow anywhere.. and ive seen it grow in many wierd places as long as it receives sunlight and ample  moisture. I would also add a clover or 2 to your mix. Does this spot get sunlight? and a good amount of direct sun? Without good sun, you wont ge tmuch growth from anything..   

[Berniez]

GET A CHAINSAW AND OPEN THE CANOPY....   The below pictures will visualize just what I am talking about.  Two fields where planted on the same day (No Till) on the same day with the same mix ( White clover and oats) they are 250 yards apart but one gets less sunlight but more deer pressure than the other you should be able to tell which is which.  While are being hit by deer one has NO oats left while the other has oats in abundance.  Both picts where taken 5 minutes apart (today) showing 1 has more sunlight than the other.  Use the chainsaw to give your fields and roads LIGHT  If you are going to waste money come over to my  place and we will drink it. BTW They like the oats  (Just garden variety whole oats from Lutz feed in Oneonta ($8.00 per 50 lbs)   While both fields show substantial abuse by deer....the oats are completely gone in one field. The clover will be hit hard the rest of the year.  IF you have real small plots use clover and oats  anything will be attacked and eaten long before the season, (I had a 2 acre soybean field devastated by September, Picts will be sent if you want).  Use the chain saw first and get a soil sample before you spend money on stuff that won't grow.

 

[Timeless]

If you have equipment access, you can buy bulk compost or compost top soil blend and install it on top of your native soil.  Even a 4" layer will be enough for most plants to establish, and you can be pretty well certain the plot will take off.

This may not be economically viable for very large plots, but much easier to manage in the future and easier on your equipment now.

[G-Man]

On 11/1/2020 at 10:13 AM, pitbill said:

Hey- 

I have 78 acres that id like to put some food plots on in Delaware County...the area is full of shale, if you dig more than a few inches you run into shale, and a bunch of it. (large, small and tiny pieces every ware) . I have two tractors, a kubota BX24 (24 hp)  and a LS MT350 (50 hp) and a few implements ( 7 ft disc, 4 ft rototiller, 7 ft blade, and a 6 ft landscape rake- all came from a previous property that had great soil.). How would you guys attack this type of soil? I figure ill spray it down with herbicide, then disc it until i get some kind of seed bed- how's that sound? Also what would work for seed in this kind of soil...i was thinking for a fall plot rape, kale or radish- and for a spring plot maybe some peas or some type of spring /summer mix. Thanks for any advice- im at a loss with soil like this, but it can grow stuff and the property is full of woods and has over 20 acres of old pastures. 

Spray it , burn off dead grasses, and plant. You dont need to do any more for small seed.

Clover, cereal grain for summer , can do radish for early bow, turnip kales for later season. And winter grains. 

 Corn or soybeans have to be deeper but you dont want  to plow shale.