Why??

[chrisw]

Ny buck taken older than 2 is now 62%  without ar

Do you know why the increase? More and more people are realizing the benefits of passing on 1.5 yr old bucks. QDM in some form or another is being voluntarily done, if it didn't work or create higher hunter satisfaction, people wouldn't be doing it.

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[Trial153]

In 2020 statewide 78% of the bucks harvested in NY were 1.5 and 2.5. Quite frankly if you think that’s a good thing your either misinformed or ignorant.

https://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/2020deerrpt.pdf

[chrisw]

actually last few years less and less 1 1/2 bucks are taken in fact per DEC NY hunters take about the same or less 1 1/2 bucks as pennselyvania  hunters. in fact 61.7% of bucks taken last year were 2.5 or older

Yes, compare that number to 5 or 10 years ago. What do you think changed? Hunters are evolving and seeing the benefits of a properly managed herd. Hopefully the trend continues as I think it will, state mandated or not.

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[land 1]

4 minutes ago, chrisw said:

Yes, compare that number to 5 or 10 years ago. What do you think changed? Hunters are evolving and seeing the benefits of a properly managed herd. Hopefully the trend continues as I think it will, state mandated or not.

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i think it will and hope it does,,,, Why it changed there's a lot of factors

[Trial153]

The argument from the status quo side is that we used to get an F now we get a D minus….so we should be happy.


The other side of the isle says although we have improved it’s still not acceptable and that we should working to improve even more.


The biggest obstacle we face in NY is a culture of ignorance in our ranks. You see this example clearly when it’s articulated as “ this is NY, that won’t work here”. Asking and expecting that changes in behavior and attitudes and goals to come from within is only going so far when hunters cling to that ignorance.

We need to look at implementing change structurally from a regulatory stand point that will then carry over to hunters behaviors and actions. We absolutely can do better in NY, we just have to want to.

[land 1]

so people that dont agree with u are ignorant i get it? Look we all like shooting big bucks when we can but in no way will i tell the two 74yr old guys in my camp what to shoot neither are in the greatest shape due to age but they keep at it and they are happy with any buck just like I wont tell the guy that has just shot two deer his entire life not too shoot a small buck, just like the year i waited to the last day off loader and dropped a button because i passed deer all year ....and I agree theres room for improvement and it seems that slowly it is improving,,, but on the other hand i do not want to be told by another hunter or group of hunters this is what I have to do because thats what they want, now with that being said if laws changed i would follow them just wouldn't be supportive of them...

 

 

[G-Man]

14 hours ago, chrisw said:

Do you know why the increase? More and more people are realizing the benefits of passing on 1.5 yr old bucks. QDM in some form or another is being voluntarily done, if it didn't work or create higher hunter satisfaction, people wouldn't be doing it.

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Voluntarily passing is fine , don't need mandatory ar, and this is only part of what should be herd management,  aggressive taking of does is a must.  Seems proponents of qdm forget the rest of the herd and just do buck management,  it's why 90 % of people are against qdm..  and in fact they had to combine and change their group name to present a new image.  As I  said I prefer total deer management.   That means habitat, all age class of deer harvested. There is no emphasis on buck.  As qdm appears to  have become turning many off to the entire program.    

[G-Man]

13 hours ago, Trial153 said:

The argument from the status quo side is that we used to get an F now we get a D minus….so we should be happy.


The other side of the isle says although we have improved it’s still not acceptable and that we should working to improve even more.


The biggest obstacle we face in NY is a culture of ignorance in our ranks. You see this example clearly when it’s articulated as “ this is NY, that won’t work here”. Asking and expecting that changes in behavior and attitudes and goals to come from within is only going so far when hunters cling to that ignorance.

We need to look at implementing change structurally from a regulatory stand point that will then carry over to hunters behaviors and actions. We absolutely can do better in NY, we just have to want to.

Grading according to whom?? Hunter satisfaction varies wildly , while you want it to be a certain way  most others do not, 

Solution is buy / lease your own place and mange it thru nys licence and tags.  

The ariticals I see rating ny as bad deer hunting usually all complain about snow and weather.. yet talk to new York hu ter and they all want snow and cold...  so  who's correct ? 

Some writer that doenst like cold so hunting  sucks , or the residents that enjoy  long liberal season and fill their freezer..  

While many pass up younger bucks  some will kill 1st one they see.  This is fine as all age class of deer should be taken in a management plan. Including fawn!

[steve863]

On 12/3/2021 at 11:01 AM, Trial153 said:

Agree the NY season dates and lengths are some of the absolute worst in the county.

This is piss poor idea to begin with however it still should be left up to the DEC in all their stupidity.


NY should go to state wide Regular season that starts the first Saturday after thanksgiving and goes for 10-12 days. They should then have state wide muzzleloader season that is 5 days starting the first Saturday in Jan.

One buck per license hunter per year.

Archery season without cross bows Oct 1 to Jan 31st.

Liberal antlerless tags that are person and DMZ specific.

Sound like Ohio minus the crossbows ? Yep…

 

Don't know how I missed this.  You want gun hunters to have 10-12 days while you have 4 whole freakin months?   To hell with that!!   How many days do the majority of gun hunters actually go out during the 4 weekend season?   Maybe 6-10 day total?   Most can only go on the weekends.  Why should they be shafted into a frantic 10-12 days while you get 4 whole months?  That is complete BS.  I could care less about Ohio or anywhere else.  They have their traditions, and NY has their own.  Lots of good deer get taken in NYS.  Pictures on this forum are proof of that.  And above all hunting doesn't need to be all about antlers, the thing many of you are obsessed with.  There is way more to it than that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[G-Man]

1 hour ago, steve863 said:

 

Don't know how I missed this.  You want gun hunters to have 10-12 days while you have 4 whole freakin months?   To hell with that!!   How many days do the majority of gun hunters actually go out during the 4 weekend season?   Maybe 6-10 day total?   Most can only go on the weekends.  Why should they be shafted into a frantic 10-12 days while you get 4 whole months?  That is complete BS.  I could care less about Ohio or anywhere else.  They have their traditions, and NY has their own.  Lots of good deer get taken in NYS.  Pictures on this forum are proof of that.  And above all hunting doesn't need to be all about antlers, the thing many of you are obsessed with.  There is way more to it than that.

 

 

 

A shorter gun season would force more hunters in the woods at that time creating more movement.  Or alternatively run  a 10 day season clse for 2 weeks and run another 10 day season   this would allow deer to return to natural movements and actually increase the take numbers as almost 70 % is killed 1st 2 days.. now you would have 2 opening days..  as for the long bow season  less than  20% of bow hunters are successful.   They tend not to shoot doe ( thus the reason xbows were introduced) when xbows are allowed all of archery then I could see a case to restrict season legnth..  

We are here and have a season to manage herd ( reduce numbers yet many will not shoot doe. 

[steve863]

3 minutes ago, G-Man said:

A shorter gun season would force more hunters in the woods at that time creating more movement.  Or alternatively run  a 10 day season clse for 2 weeks and run another 10 day season   this would allow deer to return to natural movements and actually increase the take numbers as almost 70 % is killed 1st 2 days.. now you would have 2 opening days..  as for the long bow season  less than  20% of bow hunters are successful.   They tend not to shoot doe ( thus the reason xbows were introduced) when xbows are allowed all of archery then I could see a case to restrict season legnth..  

We are here and have a season to manage herd ( reduce numbers yet many will not shoot doe. 

 

Yeah, these elitist bowhunters just kill me.  I bet most of the 20% successful bowhunters are killing deer in the suburban areas where there is an overabundance of deer.  Put them in the more rural or big woods areas and their deer take is a mere drop in the bucket.  And add to this their aversion to killing doe as you said, which doesn't help matters either.

 

 

 

 

[G-Man]

So  counties cant opt out, to bad for snowmobiling... not like we will have conditions to open trails anyway

 https://www.dec.ny.gov/press/123795.html

[Trial153]

 
Yeah, these elitist bowhunters just kill me.  I bet most of the 20% successful bowhunters are killing deer in the suburban areas where there is an overabundance of deer.  Put them in the more rural or big woods areas and their deer take is a mere drop in the bucket.  And add to this their aversion to killing doe as you said, which doesn't help matters either.
 
 
 
 

Your clueless as usual. One out of four deer killed state wide was killed during the archery season. When you compare how many archery permits were sold compared to regular big game licenses anyone with a shred of cognition can conclude its efficacy.

[land 1]

34 minutes ago, Trial153 said:

Your clueless as usual. One out of four deer killed state wide was killed during the archery season. When you compare how many archery permits were sold compared to regular big game licenses anyone with a shred of cognition can conclude its efficacy.

so earlier u said xbow was to efficient and should not be allowed in bow seasons ,,, soooo compbound bow are just the correct amount efficiency... oh please explain would you? and why do you have to call people clueless and ignorant when attempting to make your point?

Edited December 7, 2021 by land 1

[steve863]

1 hour ago, Trial153 said:

Your clueless as usual. One out of four deer killed state wide was killed during the archery season. When you compare how many archery permits were sold compared to regular big game licenses anyone with a shred of cognition can conclude its efficacy.

 

Yeah, and YOU know EVERYTHING, we all know that.  LOL  Plenty of regular season licenses get bought for no other reason than to get doe tags.  Many of these license purchasers will never step into the woods.  Bowhunters in general will buy a license and hunt and in general they will spend more time in the field, I will give you that.  25% of the total kill is still chump change.  How much would it help by extending the season to January 31 like you would want?  I bet not much.  Most of you bowhunters are horn crazy and you won't be dropping doe when you think Mr. Trophy buck might be trailing her.  Of course the gun hunters would now have only 10-12 days to hunt so surely the total annual take will go down and there will be less enthusiasm for gun hunters in general since they don't have many days to hunt.  That's what you probably want anyway, where you hope no one else gets to kill a deer so there will be more and bigger ones out there for you.

 

 

[chrisw]

 
Don't know how I missed this.  You want gun hunters to have 10-12 days while you have 4 whole freakin months?   To hell with that!!   How many days do the majority of gun hunters actually go out during the 4 weekend season?   Maybe 6-10 day total?   Most can only go on the weekends.  Why should they be shafted into a frantic 10-12 days while you get 4 whole months?  That is complete BS.  I could care less about Ohio or anywhere else.  They have their traditions, and NY has their own.  Lots of good deer get taken in NYS.  Pictures on this forum are proof of that.  And above all hunting doesn't need to be all about antlers, the thing many of you are obsessed with.  There is way more to it than that.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Why do you say, "YOU have 4 months"? Is there a reason you can't bowhunt? Everyone would have that time, not select people. You're acting like this is some wild hair brained idea that's impossible. You do know that the states with arguably the best deer herds do something just like this right? If you disagree with it that's fine, but don't act like the sky is falling and someone just told you the earth is flat. As stated before multiple times, harvest numbers during gun season would probably not change, only the amount of days does. And I'll say it again, deer management is not about what YOU want or what best suits your needs or traditions, you know what it's about?? The deer! Health, numbers and sustainability. Don't assume ALL gun hunters feel the way you do either, I gun hunt and I feel differently? I bet there's people who would love a 5 month rifle season, would you love that too? You're right, to hell with what's best for the herd, let's wipe them out as best we can...

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[land 1]

Numbers and sustainabilty are just fine in New York, and have been for years,

[chrisw]

Numbers and sustainabilty are just fine in New York, and have been for years,

According to who? Would you even know if they weren't? Is this your own research? Aren't all numbers seemingly fine until they aren't?

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[land 1]

13 minutes ago, chrisw said:

According to who? Would you even know if they weren't? Is this your own research? Aren't all numbers seemingly fine until they aren't?

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According to NY DEC and well statics say 1.2mil deer in NY , no i didnt do of my own research , well i guess that is true about numbers but I cant see why there would be a huge crash of deer numbers under current regs ,,,, Now same question back at u why are the numbers and health not sustainable as they are now with out QDM and rule chnges ?

[chrisw]

According to NY DEC and well statics say 1.2mil deer in NY , no i didnt do of my own research , well i guess that is true about numbers but I cant see why there would be a huge crash of deer numbers under current regs ,,,, Now same question back at u why are the numbers and health not sustainable as they are now with out QDM and rule chnges ?

EHD, excessive dmp's, an extension to an already unnecessarily long firearm season, addition of crossbows to archery. In my opinion the DEC doesn't have a clue how many deer we have. I'm not saying there is a foolproof way of knowing but they paint areas with an extremely wide brush and as a result the numbers are not what they seem. I'm not saying it will be a huge crash all at once, but the way we keep adding more implements and more "bonus" seasons it will catch up with us. I've seen multiple state lands we've hunted forever take a drastic nosedive in the last 6-8 years and it's not going to recover unless something changes.

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[land 1]

3 minutes ago, chrisw said:

EHD, excessive dmp's, an extension to an already unnecessarily long firearm season, addition of crossbows to archery. In my opinion the DEC doesn't have a clue how many deer we have. I'm not saying there is a foolproof way of knowing but they paint areas with an extremely wide brush and as a result the numbers are not what they seem. I'm not saying it will be a huge crash all at once, but the way we keep adding more implements and more "bonus" seasons it will catch up with us. I've seen multiple state lands we've hunted forever take a drastic nosedive in the last 6-8 years and it's not going to recover unless something changes.

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Ok so no research.  you dont believe the people that do the research. crossbows only took 11,000 deer last yr...Theres states that have delt with EHD for 50yrs, Just admit this one thing your goal is bigger bucks and less gun hunting so you have better hunting....again im a bow hunter, cross bow hunter gun hunter and loader, I dont dislike any type of hunter or stly as long as legal, I do dislike some one  trying to impede another hunters enjoyment of the woods and current hunting seasons 

[chrisw]

Ok so no research.  you dont believe the people that do the research. crossbows only took 11,000 deer last yr...Theres states that have delt with EHD for 50yrs, Just admit this one thing your goal is bigger bucks and less gun hunting so you have better hunting....again im a bow hunter, cross bow hunter gun hunter and loader, I dont dislike any type of hunter or stly as long as legal, I do dislike some one  trying to impede another hunters enjoyment of the woods and current hunting seasons 

You people can't see the forest through the trees. It's an instant cop out to just say it's just selfish bowhunters. You can't even imagine any change without blaming a bowhunters "elitist". I too hunt with all weapons, my family only gun hunts, it would affect their season more than yours, you think I'm just trying to rob them of opportunities? Crossbows only took 11,000 deer? As if that's inconsequential, how many of those deer wouldn't have been killed if it weren't for crossbow? How many additional were killed during a September rifle hunt? How many more will be killed during the extended season? How many more will be killed if crossbows get full inclusion? If you can't understand numbers then I'm done having a conversation with you. Stop living for the moment and look to the future.

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[land 1]

4 minutes ago, chrisw said:

You people can't see the forest through the trees. It's an instant cop out to just say it's just selfish bowhunters. You can't even imagine any change without blaming a bowhunters "elitist". I too hunt with all weapons, my family only gun hunts, it would affect their season more than yours, you think I'm just trying to rob them of opportunities? Crossbows only took 11,000 deer? As if that's inconsequential, how many of those deer wouldn't have been killed if it weren't for crossbow? How many additional were killed during a September rifle hunt? How many more will be killed during the extended season? How many more will be killed if crossbows get full inclusion? If you can't understand numbers then I'm done having a conversation with you. Stop living for the moment and look to the future.

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Well dont get all upset but Cop-out ok its all "QDM"  for you not rack size gotcha i understand now  ha haha thats great, never said selfisf bow hunters or elitist those are your words, September hunt was all about QDM even requested by QDM guys due to the over population of DOE in specific areas, Late hunt not sure it will have much impact sounds more like giving kids that are off from school and guys that work alot  that may be free due to holidays another oppurtunity ....You dont believe the numbers from DEC  ?? so what numbers do you speak off...Well good luck for the remainder of the season

[chrisw]

Well dont get all upset but Cop-out ok its all "QDM"  for you not rack size gotcha i understand now  ha haha thats great, never said selfisf bow hunters or elitist those are your words, September hunt was all about QDM even requested by QDM guys due to the over population of DOE in specific areas, Late hunt not sure it will have much impact sounds more like giving kids that are off from school and guys that work alot  that may be free due to holidays another oppurtunity ....You dont believe the numbers from DEC  ?? so what numbers do you speak off...Well good luck for the remainder of the season

I'm done debating this with you. You wont acknowledge anything that doesn't benefit you directly. More, more, more, typical modern day conservation. You don't know the first thing about management or QDM. Educate yourself, you might actually learn something. And for what it's worth, I don't need a longer archery season for my benefit, I do very well in the season that exists. I put the deer before my personal gain, you should try it.

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[land 1]

4 minutes ago, chrisw said:

I'm done debating this with you. You wont acknowledge anything that doesn't benefit you directly. More, more, more, typical modern day conservation. You don't know the first thing about management or QDM. Educate yourself, you might actually learn something. And for what it's worth, I don't need a longer archery season for my benefit, I do very well in the season that exists. I put the deer before my personal gain, you should try it.

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You said your done one post again glad your back lol . how do you know what I know mind reader? for the last 6yrs Ive done lots of habitat work hinge cuts, planted some 600 trees food plots etc to benefit deer and yes my hunting oppurtunties. I never said you needed or wanted a longer archery season, are you reading what i type? but you do want to shorten some seasons "gun" and do away with others "crosbow" this effects other people and im not willing to try or support taking away from others oppurtuneties that are out there doing it legally and having fun.... The sky is not falling under the current regs....