Skull size aging.

[dbHunterNY]

So I get what people are saying and know where many doubts even come from but with practice and verification using cementum annuli analysis results you can get good at any method. We get harvest data and a lower jawbone from hundreds of deer every year and send in dozens of them. Three of us panel age the jawbones and a vast majority will not stump us. Only several of the 200 or so we'll hand in that don't seem to make sense. Often any dental issues or other stuff can be sorted out. Still rarely do they come back and we're off on age. The idea is still to put all the pieces together but to trash and disregard some of them just means you suck at using them. Just like a puzzle some make sense more than others but they all fit.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

[dbHunterNY]

@wolc123 I don't know about deerage but matson lab is who we use has tweaked their rates a little. still we're sending in about 40 of them. with shipping and everything it's 25 per deer. They only do minimum of 5 deer per order for $75. Gets cheaper after that. Regardless 2 month turn around.

Deerage last I knew was over 30 without shipping for one deer with 3 month turn around. Not sure if there's a discount for multiple deer orders.

Not a plug for one over the other but makes a difference if you send in deer with buddies or not.



Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

[wolc123]

11 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

@wolc123 I don't know about deerage but matson lab is who we use has tweaked their rates a little. still we're sending in about 40 of them. with shipping and everything it's 25 per deer. They only do minimum of 5 deer per order for $75. Gets cheaper after that. Regardless 2 month turn around.

Deerage last I knew was over 30 without shipping for one deer with 3 month turn around. Not sure if there's a discount for multiple deer orders.

Not a plug for one over the other but makes a difference if you send in deer with buddies or not.



Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk
 

Thanks for providing the costs and turnaround times.  That is more than I am willing to spend, to learn the age of a deer that is most likely 3.5 or less.  I can’t recall ever killing a buck, that I thought was older than that, so a combination of the three crappy aging methods (skull size, antler size, and body size) are good enough for me.
 

I am intrigued by the potential of deer skull thickness aging.  It seems like it would be very easy to design a caliper, that would fit in an eye socket, and give a relatively accurate age estimate, up to 10.5 or so.  It would probably work on a buck or doe.  The deerage.com and matson lab folks probably get nervous when they think about that.  
 

Such a caliper, molded from plastic, could be probably be made for less than the $ 5 that I paid for my butt-out.  They will probably charge over $ 30 for it for a few years though, just like they did for the butt-outs, when they first came out.  “A fool and his money are soon parted”.  

 

 

[Five Seasons]

On 2/1/2022 at 7:52 PM, wolc123 said:

It seems relatively easy for 1.5 thru 3.5.  After that, it is probably a lot tougher.  For this group (that I killed since 2015), I am going with 2.5, 1.5, 3.5, 3.5, 3.5, 2.5, 3.5 years old, starting from the bottom.
 

Skull size seems pretty consistent thru that range.  Body size and antler size do not seem to be such good age indicators.  The smallest antlered 3.5 (est) shown here had the largest body, by a significant margin (over an inch of chest girth) while the largest antlered one had the smallest body by a significant margin (again by more than an inch of chest girth).  
 

The other two est 3.5’s had nearly the same sized body’s and antlers and were taken on the same farm.  One of those weighed 182 pounds field-dressed on a certified, made in USA, butcher’s scale.   I saved the lower jaws of the those two, just in case a dispute ever had to be settled.  

I brought last year’s est. 3.5 in from the barn today, now in the top spot, along with the slug that brought him down, and his lower jaw.    

have at it fsw

nice looking wall wolc

[Five Seasons]

I don't consider myself a trophy hunter. I hunt for many reasons, but I wouldn't lie and say that I didn't target big bucks. I absolutely do. But again if I'm honest, I target big bucks because they have big racks. 

So the aging thing has never really interested me. I've talked privately with some members here who have shot 4.5 year olds that I would have passed due to rack size.

My question here is, outside of curiosity is anyone aging to "make themselves feel better"? Meaning, you know it's not a giant, but when the test comes back at 3.5 you're for sure going to let people know that it wasn't a big 2.5?

[wolc123]

2 minutes ago, Belo said:

I don't consider myself a trophy hunter. I hunt for many reasons, but I wouldn't lie and say that I didn't target big bucks. I absolutely do. But again if I'm honest, I target big bucks because they have big racks. 

So the aging thing has never really interested me. I've talked privately with some members here who have shot 4.5 year olds that I would have passed due to rack size.

My question here is, outside of curiosity is anyone aging to "make themselves feel better"? Meaning, you know it's not a giant, but when the test comes back at 3.5 you're for sure going to let people know that it wasn't a big 2.5?

Maybe folks like targeting older bucks because they think it is a bigger challenge.  They can’t really say they are targeting the smartest bucks, when they are older than 3.5 because the space for the brain must start to shrink after that, due to the thickening skulls.  

I’ll keep hoping for 3.5’s with my buck tags, when available brain volume, body size, antler size, and meat quality are all at or near the peak, for an adult deer.

[chrisw]

Maybe folks like targeting older bucks because they think it is a bigger challenge.  They can’t really say they are targeting the smartest bucks, when they are older than 3.5 because the space for the brain must start to shrink after that, due to the thickening skulls.  
I’ll keep hoping for 3.5’s with my buck tags, when available brain volume, body size, antler size, and meat quality are all at or near the peak, for an adult deer.

Good lord man, you target 3.5's now because of brain volume!? So brain volume equates to intelligence now? I can point out some really stupid humans with big brain volume...

Sent from my moto g fast using Tapatalk

[chrisw]

I don't consider myself a trophy hunter. I hunt for many reasons, but I wouldn't lie and say that I didn't target big bucks. I absolutely do. But again if I'm honest, I target big bucks because they have big racks. 
So the aging thing has never really interested me. I've talked privately with some members here who have shot 4.5 year olds that I would have passed due to rack size.
My question here is, outside of curiosity is anyone aging to "make themselves feel better"? Meaning, you know it's not a giant, but when the test comes back at 3.5 you're for sure going to let people know that it wasn't a big 2.5?

I can only speak for myself but it's my curiosity that warrants aging. I "need" to know when I shoot a big buck, I even have a doe jaw in the freezer still that I need to send out that appears to be very old. Other "nice" bucks that I've killed I can guess within a year of age with relative certainty, so I'm less curious. The same with fish for me, I don't weigh or measure unless it's well above average for me and I'm curious, I've never weighed a steelhead and I've caught a lot of them, even one real big fish. I weigh every deer though, again, out of curiosity and sizing reference.

Sent from my moto g fast using Tapatalk

[wolc123]

7 minutes ago, chrisw said:

Good lord man, you target 3.5's now because of brain volume!? So brain volume equates to intelligence now? I can point out some really stupid humans with big brain volume...

Sent from my moto g fast using Tapatalk
 

As a pure meat hunter, My primary concern is body volume, when it comes to punching my buck tags, hence my affinity towards chest girth.   I don’t really care much about brain or antler volume.  

The antlers are handy though, because they are the easiest way for me to get a fast idea if I am looking at a 1.5, 2.5, or 3.5 year old buck.  My general observations have been: that 3 points on a side is most likely 2.5 and 4 points on a side is most likely 3.5.  There are certainly lots of exceptions to that though.  
 

Some years, I hold out for 3.5, and other years 2.5, during the first half of the seasons, depending on our freezer status.  Anything goes after the midpoint, but sightings are usually way down then or my tag is already punched, especially through gun season.

One interesting thing I can say for sure, is that I would not have killed (3) of the (4) 3.5 year olds, that I did over the last 5 years, had I “settled” for scrawny 1.5 year olds, that offered me “chip-shots” prior.  
 

Here’s  “forky” practically begging for a slug on opening day of gun last year:

I won’t pester you with another photo of his grandpa, who showed up 5 minutes after sunset for me when I was in that stand, 6 days later. 

 

 

 

[Buckmaster7600]

I don't consider myself a trophy hunter. I hunt for many reasons, but I wouldn't lie and say that I didn't target big bucks. I absolutely do. But again if I'm honest, I target big bucks because they have big racks. 
So the aging thing has never really interested me. I've talked privately with some members here who have shot 4.5 year olds that I would have passed due to rack size.
My question here is, outside of curiosity is anyone aging to "make themselves feel better"? Meaning, you know it's not a giant, but when the test comes back at 3.5 you're for sure going to let people know that it wasn't a big 2.5?

To me the older the buck the harder to kill, a 6yr old has survived twice the hunting seasons, coyote chases etc.

While tracking I can usually tell if they’re 4+ by their feet, stagger and stride but like everything it’s not perfect.


I always try to kill the oldest biggest buck in the woods, racks that aren’t giants mean very little to me. I couldn’t even tell you where 3 of the last 4 bucks I’ve killed antlers are.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dbHunterNY]

Thanks for providing the costs and turnaround times.  That is more than I am willing to spend, to learn the age of a deer that is most likely 3.5 or less.  I can’t recall ever killing a buck, that I thought was older than that, so a combination of the three crappy aging methods (skull size, antler size, and body size) are good enough for me.
 
I am intrigued by the potential of deer skull thickness aging.  It seems like it would be very easy to design a caliper, that would fit in an eye socket, and give a relatively accurate age estimate, up to 10.5 or so.  It would probably work on a buck or doe.  The deerage.com and matson lab folks probably get nervous when they think about that.  
 
Such a caliper, molded from plastic, could be probably be made for less than the $ 5 that I paid for my butt-out.  They will probably charge over $ 30 for it for a few years though, just like they did for the butt-outs, when they first came out.  “A fool and his money are soon parted”.  

 
 

Maybe but the method and data have to be tested first through research and samples cl. Only thing you'll know is a skull is bigger or smaller than the previous. Without verifying age by other means and back checking the method you can't draw any conclusions.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

[Five Seasons]

 

16 hours ago, chrisw said:

I can only speak for myself but it's my curiosity that warrants aging. I "need" to know when I shoot a big buck, I even have a doe jaw in the freezer still that I need to send out that appears to be very old. Other "nice" bucks that I've killed I can guess within a year of age with relative certainty, so I'm less curious. The same with fish for me, I don't weigh or measure unless it's well above average for me and I'm curious, I've never weighed a steelhead and I've caught a lot of them, even one real big fish. I weigh every deer though, again, out of curiosity and sizing reference.

Sent from my moto g fast using Tapatalk
 

That's what I figured. I do weigh and keep records of every deer, mostly out of curiosity too. However my scale wasn't a huge investment and I use for turkey's too. Aging a deer seems a little more expensive and involved.

I for sure understand why people are interested in it. 

[Five Seasons]

14 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

To me the older the buck the harder to kill, a 6yr old has survived twice the hunting seasons, coyote chases etc.

While tracking I can usually tell if they’re 4+ by their feet, stagger and stride but like everything it’s not perfect.


I always try to kill the oldest biggest buck in the woods, racks that aren’t giants mean very little to me. I couldn’t even tell you where 3 of the last 4 bucks I’ve killed antlers are.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

for sure I get that. So is aging them verification for you? Like you said, a truly mature 4.5 or older buck is pretty easy ID based on visual observations vs the scientific identification. 

[Buckmaster7600]

for sure I get that. So is aging them verification for you? Like you said, a truly mature 4.5 or older buck is pretty easy ID based on visual observations vs the scientific identification. 

It’s curious more than verification. The three I’ve had aged were 5,6 and 9yrs old. They were all shot tracking and the 6yr old myself and everyone that looked at him thought he was a huge 2 or 3 yr old based on everything but his rack, he was maybe a 90” 10pt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kmartinson]

On 2/1/2022 at 7:52 PM, wolc123 said:

It seems relatively easy for 1.5 thru 3.5.  After that, it is probably a lot tougher.  For this group (that I killed since 2015), I am going with 2.5, 1.5, 3.5, 3.5, 3.5, 2.5, 3.5 years old, starting from the bottom.
 

Skull size seems pretty consistent thru that range.  Body size and antler size do not seem to be such good age indicators.  The smallest antlered 3.5 (est) shown here had the largest body, by a significant margin (over an inch of chest girth) while the largest antlered one had the smallest body by a significant margin (again by more than an inch of chest girth).  
 

The other two est 3.5’s had nearly the same sized body’s and antlers and were taken on the same farm.  One of those weighed 182 pounds field-dressed on a certified, made in USA, butcher’s scale.   I saved the lower jaws of the those two, just in case a dispute ever had to be settled.  

I brought last year’s est. 3.5 in from the barn today, now in the top spot, along with the slug that brought him down, and his lower jaw.    

have at it fsw

That wall is proof of accomplishment in your hunting career. Imo there are some good bucks in there.

  In my experience however many deer I would like to think were 3.5 were actually 2.5 with good genetics.  The jawbone study is pretty accurate and probably the only thing I would trust to make judgment on deer age. Cameras, pictures and encounters will give some actual proof, but unless other information says contrary the ca analysis is most accurate.

When you say you have mounted 200+ deer how did you know your aging was accurate? 

[Four Seasons]

17 hours ago, chrisw said:

Good lord man, you target 3.5's now because of brain volume!? So brain volume equates to intelligence now? I can point out some really stupid humans with big brain volume...

Sent from my moto g fast using Tapatalk
 

Just the fact that he thinks they don’t get smarter with age says all you should need to know. 

[Kmartinson]

5 minutes ago, Four Seasons said:

Just the fact that he thinks they don’t get smarter with age says all you should need to know. 

Idc about petty childish back and forth. He has multiple racks on this post and I'm always trying to learn things pertaining to whitetails,  especially mature bucks.... 

[Buckmaster7600]

Just the fact that he thinks they don’t get smarter with age says all you should need to know. 

In my opinion it doesn’t matter the age after they’re 2.5, you have to be in the right place at the right time. You and I hunt completely differently tactics wise but for me to kill a buck tracking they almost have to screw up, 9 out of 10 beds I come to when tracking a buck the buck has chosen a spot making them unkillable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Five Seasons]

31 minutes ago, Kmartinson said:

That wall is proof of accomplishment in your hunting career. Imo there are some good bucks in there.

  In my experience however many deer I would like to think were 3.5 were actually 2.5 with good genetics.  The jawbone study is pretty accurate and probably the only thing I would trust to make judgment on deer age. Cameras, pictures and encounters will give some actual proof, but unless other information says contrary the ca analysis is most accurate.

When you say you have mounted 200+ deer how did you know your aging was accurate? 

And for me, a nice rack is a nice rack. I guess it's nice to know if it's a 3 vs an immature 2, but if you're happy with the deer you shot there's no reason to make yourself feel bad. On the flip side it is cool to find out a deer you thought was a 3 is actually a 5 with bad genetics, however the rack will still be that of 2 lol. 

I have this image in my mind of non-hunters looking at the wall and when you try and explain that the rack on this one here is smaller than a few I have mounted so I just did a euro. However, he's actually a 4.5 and oh by the way that big 8 is a huge 2.5.

My mother in law "oh ok..." lol. 

[Four Seasons]

2 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

In my opinion it doesn’t matter the age after they’re 2.5, you have to be in the right place at the right time. You and I hunt completely differently tactics wise but for me to kill a buck tracking they almost have to screw up, 9 out of 10 beds I come to when tracking a buck the buck has chosen a spot making them unkillable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Exactly. You choose probably the toughest way to kill a mature buck because that’s the challenge you need. I on the other hand need the challenge of locating the largest buck or two in my areas and hunt only them until I harvest them or something bigger comes along.   It’s all in the challenge but to think a buck does not change in smarts from 2 years on up is hogwash. Many after 4 years on up are all but unkillable. They turn into a total different animal with age. 

[Four Seasons]

14 minutes ago, Kmartinson said:

Idc about petty childish back and forth. He has multiple racks on this post and I'm always trying to learn things pertaining to whitetails,  especially mature bucks.... 

Hey by all means. If that’s what you want to learn from the door is open. For someone to say a whitetail buck does not get smarter with age has not hunted mature bucks. Maybe got lucky here and there….Just as he says he did… but has not hunted mature bucks. 

[Four Seasons]

12 minutes ago, Belo said:

And for me, a nice rack is a nice rack. I guess it's nice to know if it's a 3 vs an immature 2, but if you're happy with the deer you shot there's no reason to make yourself feel bad. On the flip side it is cool to find out a deer you thought was a 3 is actually a 5 with bad genetics, however the rack will still be that of 2 lol. 

I have this image in my mind of non-hunters looking at the wall and when you try and explain that the rack on this one here is smaller than a few I have mounted so I just did a euro. However, he's actually a 4.5 and oh by the way that big 8 is a huge 2.5.

My mother in law "oh ok..." lol. 

Without a doubt. I was keeping tabs on a couple 130’s plus from early September but then this guy shows up one night. Put 6 more cameras around looking for him again and never got another pic of him. Just one of those passing thru. I don’t age anything but I might if checked this guy. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Four Seasons

[wolc123]

My wife would prefer that I killed them all at 5-7 months of age, when they are the best tasting.  Then we wouldn’t have to worry about these antler size and age issues, and a lot of wall space would be freed up for other usage.  
 

Those “baby bucks” certainly do taste better, but I can’t tell the difference in taste between a 1.5, 2.5,and 3.5, so my preference for 3.5’s is strictly a meat quantity issue.  
 

Hopefully, she has the 5 and 7 month frozen buck hearts that I gave her for Valentine’s Day (along with a 3.5 and an unknown courtesy of another member) just about pickled right now:

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by wolc123

[wolc123]

Pickled and on the top shelf:

[wolc123]

On 2/15/2022 at 11:01 AM, Four Seasons said:

Just the fact that he thinks they don’t get smarter with age says all you should need to know. 

Can you think of an older politician, where that might not be the case ?