Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[Fairgame]

That proves that many more year and a half old bucks survived to become older.  What are you trying to show me?

[Fairgame]

Isnt that the whole reason for implementing these restrictions.  wasnt it cause most of the yearlings were getting shot?

[Larry]

this may help

09deerrpt.pdf

[Larry]

your not seeing a return on your investment some of you are just to hard headed to see it. you got what you want and thats all that matters.

[SteveB]

Just about everyone talking all this crap.  And I really believe its crap, has no idea what it was like to what it is today.  If you dont hunt these areas you dont know what it was like.  Its that easy.  The only proof I need is from Experience in where I hunt.

So you don't have the real numbers - real proof.

Why would you want it to end in an area that doesnt even affect you? 

Never have said I support ending - just want to see the proof it works or doesn't so sound decisions will be made on attempts to extend it statewide. And this thread was started to discuss AR support for NYS. I do not see where it was for only discussing it in the current AR areas.

I spent a little time on the link http://www.hvqdma.com/biological-needs-for-antler-restriction/

The letter by Dick Henry stating the need for AR is contradicted by the info in the link provided by HVQDMA "What is QDM http://www.hvqdma.com/quality-deer-management/

From that page"

In addition to raising the male population, properly executed QDM will result in less 2-5 year old males being killed

.

There is no way that shooting 6pts or better will protect anything more then an extremely few 2.5 bucks - and all older spikes and and 4's.

[wztirem]

I'll ask again - what are the buck kill numbers, both total and by age, for the last 7 years in the AR units? These numbers will give hard facts on what AR is doing or not doing.

The buck kill can easily be determined but the age of the killed bucks is a different story altogether. Random aging of bucks killed can perhaps provide a statistical basis basis for an argument either way.

I would like to know what the estimated deer population is in the AR areas. Since AR was established, how many book deer have been killed?

Why are there so few or no DMP's in the AR areas.

Is the habitat conducive to growing big bucks at all? Is AR an excuse for the lack of deer altogether and an attempt to placate hunters. Does AR serve the interests of private landowners who plant food plots and believe in QDM (sic)How much state land is available in the AR zones? I do not know.

One thing for sure, I have no interest in hunting in such areas where the chance of shooting the deer of my choice is restricted.

For all of you in your AR heaven good luck. I hope you reap what you sow. I know I will not be eating tag soup this upcoming season.

What I do know is that, mandatory AR will never fly in the rest of the state

[SteveB]

here is a graph

Looks like overall buck harvest is down about 300 while 2.5 and 3.5 only went up about 100.

Lowering the 1.5 harvest by 400 deer resulted in only a gain of 100 2.5/3.5's - and  300 less hunters where able to take a deer after several years of AR - hard to see the positive here.

[Fairgame]

Let me ask you this.  How does the DEC determine the age of the bucks that I shoot. They are posting these graphs by age structure as if they asked everyone on their tag how old their deer was.  How is an assumption proof in any way?  To me what the DEC is posting is an assumption due to how many points you write on your tag or their occational visit to a processing center.  If that is proof to you go with it.  To me thats an assumption.  I'm talking only based on my experiences on where I hunt and friends and family in these areas that are seeing the same change I am.

[wztirem]

here is a graph

Looks like overal buck harvest is down about 300 while 2.5 and 3.5 only went up about 100.

Means 300 less hunters where able to take a deer after several years of AR - hard to see the positive here.

You want AR to succeed let the bucks mature to reach their potential. That would be an accomplishment for all the AR supporters to brag about!

[SteveB]

How does the DEC determine the age of the bucks that I shoot.

How do they determine that 75% of the kill statewide are 1.5?

If we don't use their numbers here, how can they be used to support the claim that 75% of the 1.5 are killed statewide - same assumption. Points are being used by supporters to claim that is the way to let 1.5 to walk - why can't they be used to determine if it's true?

Out for the night.

[wztirem]

Let me ask you this.  How does the DEC determine the age of the bucks that I shoot. They are posting these graphs by age structure as if they asked everyone on their tag how old their deer was.  How is an assumption proof in any way?  To me what the DEC is posting is an assumption due to how many points you write on your tag or their occational visit to a processing center.  If that is proof to you go with it.  To me thats an assumption.  I'm talking only based on my experiences on where I hunt and friends and family in these areas that are seeing the same change I am.

You give yourself too much credit, you and your small circle of friends are the ones making the assumption.

[TheHunter]

Fairgame, JC, and others in AR ZONE ONLY -  are there bigger more mature bucks now then there were 3 or 4 years ago in your area?

There are in my area. I just want to get some facts on this thread, seems so convoluted with negativity.

[Fairgame]

If that is the only thing you consider proof there are major flaws in that type of proof.  My experience in where I hunt is proof to me and to the others who hunt these areas.  I use what the dec is listing and am showing you that they believe that many more yearlings are surviving, the same "proof" that you are showing me.

[Fairgame]

The anti ARs and the dec is making the assumtions.  I'm going by what I experience.  And yes THEHUNTER  we are seeing many more older deer after a few years in place

[TheHunter]

The anti ARs and the dec is making the assumtions.  I'm going by what I experience.  And yes THEHUNTER  we are seeing many more older deer after a few years in place

Yeah, me too, thats what I figured.  Its nice seeing more bucks running around because of AR.  Its funny, not only are there more bucks of all ages running around, there are bigger ones too.. Go figure.  Good thing there are a few spreading the facts, and talking based on first hand experience rather then from assumptions, misconceptions, and the classic brown its down mentality.

[JCTheGC]

The anti ARs and the dec is making the assumtions.  I'm going by what I experience.  And yes THEHUNTER  we are seeing many more older deer after a few years in place

Yeah, me too, thats what I figured.  Its nice seeing more bucks running around because of AR.  Its funny, not only are there more bucks of all ages running around, there are bigger ones too.. Go figure.  Good thing there are a few spreading the facts, and talking based on first hand experience rather then from assumptions, misconceptions, and the classic brown its down mentality.

Same for me too... More bucks and older bucks.  Last two years have been fun.

[burmjohn]

As I said 100 pages back or so, we have fam property in Pine Bush (3J) and there has been an improvement over the last few years.  I've gone years upon years with out seeing bucks at that property.  Last year, I did not get a buck, however, I saw a 6, 8, a spike and a 4 pointer during bow season (all out of range, roughly 40-80 yards).  During rifle I saw a few 8's and 6's however, they always seemed to be hauling ass by with no shot presentation unfortunately.  Of us 4 that hunted opening day of rifle last year, 2 got nice 8 pointers.  I have no idea on age, however they were 180 and 169 dressed.

[Dinsdale]

You give yourself too much credit, you and your small circle of friends are the ones making the assumption.

How do you explain increasing hunter support in the units over the last 2 years?

[TheHunter]

How do you explain increasing hunter support in the units over the last 2 years?

They can't, thats the thing.  Its all negative from those that are anti AR, like the sky is falling since they can not shoot those fawns and 1.5's. 

[Larry]

Just look at the harvest data for the last 5years it shows there is little support for AR’s. read the whole report

[Fairgame]

Assuming on an assumption.  AGAIN.  Another anti with no idea of whats really happening.

[TheHunter]

Just look at the harvest data for the last 5years it shows there is little support for AR’s. read the whole report

Larry, this part?

Within WMU 3H hunter support is 77% for continuing the antler  restriction program. Hunter support for antler restrictions has  increased more than 22% since the start of the program. After three  years, opposition to continuation of the program has decreased from 26%  to 14%.

Maybe it was this part that Antler Restrictions are accomplishing the objective-Yearling buck harvest is down 70%.

If not that then maybe it was 59% of all NY deer hunters support a program that would protect yearling bucks, while only 18% were strongly opposed.

If not that then maybe it was this Among hunters from the proposed 2009 AR program expansion areas, there  was a level of support of 67%.

Here is something to be proud of - New York has the highest yearling buck harvest rate of all the  states in the country. Currently 63% of the total statewide buck harvest  is comprised of 1.5-year-old bucks. In many areas yearling buck harvest  is much higher, such as Delaware County where 75% of the bucks are  killed as yearlings.

Woot! Lets go get them young ones.

[Fairgame]

Larry if thats proof read the whole report.

[Doc]

Wow... Doc, Trophyism?  Its called management, QDM.  Quality Deer Management, better the herd, age the herd.  This way that 22 year old, that 17 year old that 75 year old doesnt JUST see spikes.  Its called hunting for a reason, if that 22 or 17 or 75 year old can't put the time in, then that is NOT my problem.  All you old timers need to get away from the its brown its down mentality.  Remember the 3 inch antler rule has been in effect for ever, go bitch about that so you can shoot those too.  What a joke.

See, I knew that was the attitude ...... "That's not my situation, so that's not my problem. I'll get mine and the hell with everybody else". I do appreciate you admitting it.

Doc

[Doc]

  One more thing those who claim they let small bucks walk most of you don’t. You can see it in the buck take the percentage of 1 ½ year old in the take has stay almost the same for the last 20 years there doesn’t seem to be a lot of support for AR’s if there were you would see a reduction in the buck take coming out of the 1 ½ year olds in the take.    :'(

I have seen this point made several times over the lives of these AR threads, and I have never seen anyone rebut it. It seems there is something really wrong with the notion that AR is such a popular concept when apparently so few actually practice it. Why is there never any response to this point?