Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[Doc]

The crap you people spew is baloney, AR is here to stay in the WMU's where it is, soley based on the FACT that is allowing 1.5's to live AND majority want it.  Fact is your not in this WMU.  Nonsense in your terms to the minority, while the majority care.  That's ALL it is in a nutshell!

Crap???? .......... Spew????? ...... baloney?????  ;D  I thought you were going to work.

[steve863]

The crap you people spew is baloney, AR is here to stay in the WMU's where it is, soley based on the FACT that is allowing 1.5's to live AND majority want it.  Fact is your not in this WMU.  Nonsense in your terms to the minority, while the majority care.  That's ALL it is in a nutshell!

So tell me, what does allowing the 1.5 to live do other than potentially give him a bigger rack for you guys to put on your walls?  Does it really help the herd like most of you guys claim or is it benefitting YOU guys more than it is the deer?? Not being a wise guy here, only asking a simple question.  The same genetics are spread whether the buck breeds at 1.5 or 5.5 so what are the advantages for the deer?  I surely can't see any and the DEC has also come to the same conclusion it seems, so quite simply our points are more valid than yours in this discussion.

[Fairgame]

Steve,

Before AR's we use to put multiple cameras out starting in july and you were lucky to see bucks. The cameras would be out there for at least 4 months.  Maybee a spike and a 4 point and in the years prior to ARs one seven point. same bucks throughout the entire 4 months.  Now we put out the cameras and have at least 4 to five different nice 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 year old bucks.  For me thats a drastic change.  Opportunity rises.  I hunt hard trust me on this.  Having success at my own place has been important, and yes success most of the time is to take a decent rack.  There is no reason for me to deny it.  They are called ANTLER restrictions.  Getting a nice buck doesnt make me a better hunter than anyone else. But the sense of self accomplishment makes me feel good.  You can only hunt what is there and if they really arent there there is no way to get them.  Knowing that there is an opportunity to harvest what you have been hunting for feels good.

[Fairgame]

Another thing is that the deer behavior has changed in the last few year.  You actually hear grunting and see sparing when before I had no Idea of what a deer grunt sounded like.  Putting these deer in more of a natural state.  Great to see.  Does it help the herd?  I dont know.  but it sure makes for exciting hunting.

[Fairgame]

I dont think any bullet or arrow ever benefitted any deer!

But they look good hanging on my wall!

[Doc]

I hunt hard trust me on this.  Having success at my own place has been important, and yes success most of the time is to take a decent rack.  There is no reason for me to deny it.  They are called ANTLER restrictions.  Getting a nice buck doesnt make me a better hunter than anyone else. But the sense of self accomplishment makes me feel good.  You can only hunt what is there and if they really arent there there is no way to get them.  Knowing that there is an opportunity to harvest what you have been hunting for feels good.

So now you all have a system where you must "hunt hard" to score a harvest. That's good because it satisfies what you need to get out of hunting. At the same time you have forced others to "hunt hard". Even those who don't have the where-with-all to do so. The old guy that simply doesn't have the stamina to "hunt hard" anymore ..... the novice who at a time when he needs the most encouragement may hunt hard but not effectively enough ....... The working man who has to struggle to get a vacation day or two and may be just as willing to "hunt hard" as you do but has to put the priority on earning a living instead. Do you not understand how AR can put undo hardship on people who simply don't have control over how hard they are able to hunt? I submit that in this time of an aging hunter population, and an ecomomy that has downsized its workforce and is favoring mandatory overtime for those that are left, and the absolute requirement that novice hunters be allowed some kind of reinforcement in order to stay in our ranks, AR may be just exactly the wrong thing at the wrong time. In the face of a shrinking hunter force, this is not the time to be throwing serious roadblocks in front of those who have decided to stay.

Doc

[Fairgame]

Doc, If its a hardship dilema why is the dec constantly raising pricing for their hunting tags during a time like this?  I know they need money but so do the people that love hunting.  I can guarantee that hunter numbers will drop more due to the rising license fees than anything else.  Look at how many people complain about the license fees.  Every year the price goes up and up. They arent looking at how many hunters they are loosing, they are looking at how much more money they are going to make.  For every 1 percent of hunters lost its probably a 10 dollar hike in fees. Everone is loosing jobs but prices for everything else goes up.  How does that help in gaining more hunters.  Wouldnt lowering the hunter age to any age a parent or guardian seems appropriate and decreasing license fees make more sense during a time like this make more sense.  I have family that are 9 and ten years old and their parents have to take them out of state in order to give their kids the opportunity to harvest a deer. (The future of or hunting).  We are only looking at what we have right now and not looking into making sure that the kids the future of hunting is started at an early age so they become interested.  At 14 years old the only thing the Boy is thinking about is Girls and the Girls are only thinking of boys.  How is the kid every going to be potentionally intersested in hunting when they can only start hunting at an age where the last thing on their mind is hunting.  You can go hunting with me but you cant shoot.  You have to wait 6 more years.  How does the make the kid feel.

If we want to look at everything why arent we looking at this?

[steve863]

Doc, If its a hardship dilema why is the dec constantly raising pricing for their hunting tags during a time like this?  I know they need money but so do the people that love hunting.  I can guarantee that hunter numbers will drop more due to the rising license fees than anything else.  Look at how many people complain about the license fees.  Every year the price goes up and up.

No it doesn't go up every year.  Yes, last year it did go up, but it was at least 6 years or so before that license costs went up last.  And they did not go up again this year either. 

[Fairgame]

Even though we are going through all these tough time it still goes up. Toughest times the nation has seen since the depression but it makes sense for license hikes..  Lets not lower them to intise people to spend more. Lets raise them loose more hunters and make more money.  Good logic.  When a product in a store needs to sell they lower they price of the product.  DEC raises them.

[steve863]

I think I paid like $99 for my supersportsman license this year.  I think it's a bargain. People spend more each month for I-phones, cable TV, cigarettes, booze and all sorts of other garbage.  $99 for the privilege to hunt anytime I want during the various seasons really is a drop in the bucket in the scheme of things.

[Fairgame]

Drop in the bucket for you and some others too.  But what I said makes sense.

[Dom]

100 bucks for the year is reasonable I would spendmore if needed if you are worried about the price instead of enjoying time spent in the woods maby you should just stay on the couch

[Fairgame]

Dom keep your dumb remarks to yourself.  And YES thats what they are DUMB!!!

[Dom]

dumb remarks Idont complain about the prices its not that im rich or anything I enjoy having the privlage and thats what it is it realy is not expensive to be able to hunt and fish for the whole year it cost about 2500 for one hunting trip now thats only 3 to 7 days thats not worth it to me when I can go every day if I wanted

[Fairgame]

GooD fo U

[Dom]

GooD fo U

realy what this is about is AR not money

[Doc]

Doc, If its a hardship dilema why is the dec constantly raising pricing for their hunting tags during a time like this? 

I can't answer that question. I think it was the dumbest move that they have made in years. and I believe there is already some data that shows that it cost us hunters and fishermen. I don't think they even realize what damage they created because of the rush to buy lifetime licenses just before they began gouging the hunters. But we don't resolve one dumb move by the DEC by piling on with hacking on the harvest opportunities of those who have just endured the license fee larceny. That's kind of the upper-cut and right cross finisher.

[Fairgame]

Yes, but either way we look at it Whether pro or against ARs You still have people not satisfied. They cant make everyone happy.  I'm sure that the license increase did make alot of people unhappy and like you said there is already data of hunter loss.  Instead of intising a new hunter with a new program or lowering the hunter age for what the parent feels is the appropriate time or lowering the license fees. They raise the cost at a horrible time. 

I think the economics class 101 was missed on their call for raising license cost.  Supply and demand. probably the most important topic.

[Larry]

??? The buck take has been increasing for the last 5 years and the percentage of 1.5 year olds has remained the same. This would suggest that not everyone who claims they are practicing in QDM is doing so. The data seems to say there is not a lot of support for AR’s in the state. If there were a lot of support for AR’s you would see a reduction in the buck harvest coming out of the percentage of 1.5 year olds taken and that is not happening.

[Larry]

AR’s in this state are a DEAD issue you would more likely see the AR’s we have go away before you see any new ones.

[TheHunter]

Maybe in your case, maybe where YOU hunt it is.  Not where I am, in a WMU that SUPPORTS IT BY MAJORITY.

[Larry]

The DEC will do nothing that will jeopardize license sales any further.

[Larry]

Thehunter unless you are already in an AR zone the data does not support you conclusion. Remember in GOD WE TRUST all others bring data. Check the harvest reports for the last 5 years the buck take is going up but the % of 1.5year old has remain the same. It may go up and down few points but it’s still around 70%. then check your WMU

[Windsorhunter]

I'm kind of on the fence with this issue.  I myself are in favor of antler restrictions and currently practice it.  I do believe PA is enjoying the benefits of antler restrictions.  On the other hand, you buy a supersportsmans and pay around 90 bucks and have limited time to hunt.  If the only deer you see is a spike or Y buck, you should be able to harvest that deer.  I have been hunting for almost 30 years and the deer population (at least what I see) has definately decreased.

[Doc]

I'm kind of on the fence with this issue.  I myself are in favor of antler restrictions and currently practice it.  I do believe PA is enjoying the benefits of antler restrictions.  On the other hand, you buy a supersportsmans and pay around 90 bucks and have limited time to hunt.  If the only deer you see is a spike or Y buck, you should be able to harvest that deer.  I have been hunting for almost 30 years and the deer population (at least what I see) has definately decreased.

The scenario that you are describing actually exists in a lot of areas. And to make matters even worse, a lot of those exact areas also have a shortage of antlerless permits, so the doe harvest alternative is not likely to be an option. In other words, in those kinds of WMUs, you are given a likely result of paying your money and being almost guaranteed of getting absolutely nothing. And that may go on for an indeterminant number of years.

Also, I believe that after a buck has been around for an extra year, he does start getting to be an animal that takes a significant amount of extra time and effort. Generally that's a good thing in terms of putting extra challenge in your hunt for those that can. But I am also mindful of novice hunters that we are trying to coax into becoming permanent, life-long hunters who may actually get frustrated right out of the sport under the scenario you described. I also think about the aging hunter who simply may not be physically able to hunt as hard and as long and as intently as he once did. Are we kicking him out of the sport prematurely by forcing him to live under our own challenge choices. And then there is the guy who is stuck with mandatory overtime and is forced to choose between unlimited hunting time and his livelihood. Maybe the best he can work out is a couple of days of hunting for the whole season. I think there's a lot more people in that situation today than ever before with all the downsizing and the demands that those left behind take on the responsibilities of those that were downsized over the past decades. How enthused is he going to be about buying a license and recognizing that realisticly he probably won't really have an opportunity at a legal buck.

There are places where AR simply doesn't belong and in fact runs us the risk of accelerating our hunter losses. What that tells me is that an AR program has to be intensely managed and evergreen to be able to change with herd population changes. When I look at today's resource starved DEC, I fail to see any opportunities for taking on any new extensive management responsibilities. In fact I think I am seeing where they are struggling with the basic management duties that are already on their plate.

Doc