Calibers and Decisions

[adirondackbushwhack]

There sure are a whole lot of old time hunters across the country that would be shocked to hear that all the deer they had taken with the ol favorite 30-30 were taken with such an inferior firearm.

There was a time when I thought the 30-30 was the best rifle ever and I myself took many deer with it but I lost some with it too. Here on my wall is a mount of a nice ADK buck that I got with the 30-30. He offered me a braodside shot and I took him right off his feet but he popped right back up and bolted. He had three doe with him and they split up two doe one way and he and the other doe another. There was snow and good blood where he went down but it dried up quick. When they split up it was impossible to tell which deer was which in the deep powder and I had no blood. I followed a pair of tracks and ended up crawling on hands and knees to follow through the thick stuff where I found one tiny drop of blood and eventually caught up to him where I put several more rounds in him before he died. If there were no snow I have no doubt that I would never have recovered him. That first shot was a bit above center line just behind the shoulder and was a kill shot it just didn't kill fast enough. On another occassion I put a good shot with the 30-30 into his bigger brother and never did recover him(no snow). Now I don't use the 30-30. If those hunters you speak of that are shooked ever loose a nice buck with the 30-30 maybe they won't be so shocked after all.

[adirondackbushwhack]

The deer have just gotten tougher over the years....

I heard a rumor that The Arabs are selling them steroids and Kevlar vests...<<wink>>...

I'll bet that rumor was started by those who use the .243 or maybe 7mm when one got away.

[Grizz1219]

To be honest... My 25-06 with 120 grain bullets kills quicker than my 150 grain 30-06... In my HO

[Culvercreek hunt club]

There was a time when I thought the 30-30 was the best rifle ever and I myself took many deer with it but I lost some with it too. Here on my wall is a mount of a nice ADK buck that I got with the 30-30. He offered me a braodside shot and I took him right off his feet but he popped right back up and bolted. He had three doe with him and they split up two doe one way and he and the other doe another. There was snow and good blood where he went down but it dried up quick. When they split up it was impossible to tell which deer was which in the deep powder and I had no blood. I followed a pair of tracks and ended up crawling on hands and knees to follow through the thick stuff where I found one tiny drop of blood and eventually caught up to him where I put several more rounds in him before he died. If there were no snow I have no doubt that I would never have recovered him. That first shot was a bit above center line just behind the shoulder and was a kill shot it just didn't kill fast enough. On another occassion I put a good shot with the 30-30 into his bigger brother and never did recover him(no snow). Now I don't use the 30-30. If those hunters you speak of that are shooked ever loose a nice buck with the 30-30 maybe they won't be so shocked after all.

Sounds more like an execution problem rather than a gun problem...LOL. Just joking

[Lawdwaz]

To be honest... My 25-06 with 120 grain bullets kills quicker than my 150 grain 30-06... In my HO

How did you conclude that?

How many deer with each caliber/bullet combo?

[adirondackbushwhack]

Well I agree with what you've said. I used the the .30-30 for a little over a decade and now don't use it at all because I've found the .270 and .30-06 to be quicker killers that leave better blood trail if needed. My BIL has used the .243 for about thirty years and he always gets his deer but not always with one shot and he doesn't always have a good blood trail to follow.

Well thanks.

[bubba]

To be honest... My 25-06 with 120 grain bullets kills quicker than my 150 grain 30-06... In my HO

I am a big fan if the 25-06 with 115 grain bullets. I am just wondering how one measures how fast a deer dies? I mean dead is dead. If the deer runs 50 yards and dies it is still dead. If it drops in its tracks it is still dead. Do you start a stop watch when you pull the trigger, or is there some new technology I have missed.

[Pygmy]

Adirondack....All the animals That I have shot with the 9.3 ( 5 with 250 Barnes and 1 with Speer 270) Have dropped in thier tracks.. However, I have only taken 5 head of big game and one varmint with it, so it's not a very large sampling.

However most (if not all) of them were hits where major bones were struck. I've dropped a lot of animals in thier tracks with my 7MM08 and .280 also.

What I have not done yet is make a center double lung shot with the 9.3.

I did watch my buddy shoot a smallish whitetail doe with my .338 and a 225 Hornady..

Shot through the lungs, it ran about 60 yards, similar to deer I have lung or heart shot with shotgun slugs or 7MM rifle bullets.

[adirondackbushwhack]

Adirondack....All the animals That I have shot with the 9.3 ( 5 with 250 Barnes and 1 with Speer 270) Have dropped in thier tracks.. However, I have only taken 5 head of big game and one varmint with it, so it's not a very large sampling.

However most (if not all) of them were hits where major bones were struck. I've dropped a lot of animals in thier tracks with my 7MM08 and .280 also.

What I have not done yet is make a center double lung shot with the 9.3.

I did watch my buddy shoot a smallish whitetail doe with my .338 and a 225 Hornady..

Shot through the lungs, it ran about 60 yards, similar to deer I have lung or heart shot with shotgun slugs or 7MM rifle bullets.

I can see how that can happen with a pointed nose 338 that doesn't hit major bone. The bullet might zip right through unable to impart enough energy to the doe to knock her down. Your 9.3 and it's larger frontal area will impart more energy given the same shot placement and flat or round nosed bullets in either 338 or 9.3 will do even better simply because they are able to impart more energy starting right at the entrance hole. At least thats my take on it. I believe even with my 444 that my use of the flat nosed bullets is a big part of why the cal has performed so well for me. I don't believe i'd have the same results with pointed bullets.

[adirondackbushwhack]

I am a big fan if the 25-06 with 115 grain bullets. I am just wondering how one measures how fast a deer dies? I mean dead is dead. If the deer runs 50 yards and dies it is still dead. If it drops in its tracks it is still dead. Do you start a stop watch when you pull the trigger, or is there some new technology I have missed.

Here is how I measure it. With my 444 I've never had a deer run further than 30 yards after being shot. With my 25-06 I have had deer run further than that by quite a bit and therefore i judge that the 444 has more knockdown power than my 25-06 and therefore there is less chance of lost game. Incidentally that buck in my little pic there was taken with a 25-06. That deer didn't go far after being hit. He went right down but popped back up and ran off but after he went out of sight I waited to see if he would reappear as he should if he kept going and so I waited ready for a second shot. I waited a while and then slowly and quietly worked my down to where he disappeared. I found him still alive but having trouble getting up to get away and I put three more into him before he went down for good. I don't like them to take that long to suffer and die and so I judged the 25-06 as failing in that instance because the deer suffered needlessly. Had I my 444 that wouldn't have happened. In any case the deer is dead either way but the quicker less painful death is the one I judge to be the more succesful harvest. I'd rather have a deer drop in its tracks and never know what hit him than to have him run off and die. I consider it my responcibility to kill as quickly as I can to minimize suffering.

[erussell]

Lets really get everyone fired up now. Should the bullet mushroom and pass completely through or should it expend all its energy in the deer and not exit?

[Elmo]

Lets really get everyone fired up now. Should the bullet mushroom and pass completely through or should it expend all its energy in the deer and not exit?

IMHO, the perfect shot would have the bullet expand 99% of all it's energy within the deer and exit with the remaining 1%. This assures maximum trauma within the deer and leave two open wounds for blood lost for good measure.

Picking between a clean pass through or full expendature of energy within the target, I would go with complete expendature of energy within the target.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Elmo

[erussell]

Now which would do this a larger caliber bullet say 30's or higher. Or the smaller caliber bullets?

[Pygmy]

Two holes are better than one..

I've never been sold on the ENERGY TRANSFER theory of terminal ballistics.

I'm not saying that energy is not part of the equation, but I think bullets kill by destroying tissue and disrupting vital organs.

I'm not worried about "wasting "a little energy.. I want an exit hole. That's one reason I use Barnes Bullets...They penetrate, disrupt plenty of tissue, and nearly always exit.

[adirondackbushwhack]

Lets really get everyone fired up now. Should the bullet mushroom and pass completely through or should it expend all its energy in the deer and not exit?

I don't think it's as cut and dry as that. There is a big difference in the effect that different cals have. So for example I would want the bullet to mushroom and have complete pass through with my 25-06 but I don't always get pass through, and don't care because the deer is down with my 444.

[adirondackbushwhack]

Now which would do this a larger caliber bullet say 30's or higher. Or the smaller caliber bullets?

I'll go with 35's or higher. 30's are too small for what I am looking for in performance.

[bubba]

Here is how I measure it. With my 444 I've never had a deer run further than 30 yards after being shot. With my 25-06 I have had deer run further than that by quite a bit and therefore i judge that the 444 has more knockdown power than my 25-06 and therefore there is less chance of lost game. Incidentally that buck in my little pic there was taken with a 25-06. That deer didn't go far after being hit. He went right down but popped back up and ran off but after he went out of sight I waited to see if he would reappear as he should if he kept going and so I waited ready for a second shot. I waited a while and then slowly and quietly worked my down to where he disappeared. I found him still alive but having trouble getting up to get away and I put three more into him before he went down for good. I don't like them to take that long to suffer and die and so I judged the 25-06 as failing in that instance because the deer suffered needlessly. Had I my 444 that wouldn't have happened. In any case the deer is dead either way but the quicker less painful death is the one I judge to be the more succesful harvest. I'd rather have a deer drop in its tracks and never know what hit him than to have him run off and die. I consider it my responcibility to kill as quickly as I can to minimize suffering.

you must be using a defective 25-06. I have never had a deer go further than 10 yards and most fall dead in their tracks.

[adirondackbushwhack]

Maybe you'll give me yours then?

[Lawdwaz]

You guys using invisible ink?

Sign language?

Smoke signals?

[bubba]

sure if you want it. I am again going to say as has been said. Maybe your bullet selection wasn't the best. I use Nosler partition 115 grain bullets. I shot an 8 point 197 pound buck at 80 yards. He dropped in his tracks. I also have shot a 143 pound doe at 167 yards she fell in a pile. The longest one was a 6 point I shot double lung. He stood there like he was not even hit. He took a few steps as I reloaded as I use a single shot encore. As I brought the gun back up he wobbled and fell over walking maybe 10 yards. Not saying it is the miracle caliber. In fact I usually use a 7-08 now because there are bears where I hunt now and it is legal to shoot them in the area I hunt now. I do not think the 25-06 is an ideal bear caliber. Bit that being said, I do not need an elephant caliber to take one out either.

[adirondackbushwhack]

sure if you want it. I am again going to say as has been said. Maybe your bullet selection wasn't the best. I use Nosler partition 115 grain bullets. I shot an 8 point 197 pound buck at 80 yards. He dropped in his tracks. I also have shot a 143 pound doe at 167 yards she fell in a pile. The longest one was a 6 point I shot double lung. He stood there like he was not even hit. He took a few steps as I reloaded as I use a single shot encore. As I brought the gun back up he wobbled and fell over walking maybe 10 yards. Not saying it is the miracle caliber. In fact I usually use a 7-08 now because there are bears where I hunt now and it is legal to shoot them in the area I hunt now. I do not think the 25-06 is an ideal bear caliber. Bit that being said, I do not need an elephant caliber to take one out either.

On the buck in the pic I used 120 grain Fusion. On another buck that didn't drop as I like I used rem 120 cor lokt I think. But to be honest the first buck I shot with it went down so fast I wasnt sure what happened to him. I use a single shot Encore as my hunting rifle too but my 25-06 is a Sako 75.

[Pygmy]

Geeze....I'm not sure if I want to hang around guys who use rifles as ugly as the Encore..

If you look up the word UGLY in the dictionary, they have a picture of an ENCORE....

Now a nice, sleek, walnut, blued,classically stocked bolt action with a sensible scope, such as a Leupold fixed 4X or 6X, now THAT is a thing of beauty..<<wink>>

[bubba]

you are entitled to your opinion. I use a rifle for how it functions, not how pretty others think it is.

[jusputtn]

Has anyone stopped to think that a deer can cover a hundred yards in 7 seconds? If your deer drops in under a hundred yards you, and your gun, have done your part.

[erussell]

Geeze....I'm not sure if I want to hang around guys who use rifles as ugly as the Encore..

If you look up the word UGLY in the dictionary, they have a picture of an ENCORE....

Now a nice, sleek, walnut, blued,classically stocked bolt action with a sensible scope, such as a Leupold fixed 4X or 6X, now THAT is a thing of beauty..<<wink>>

Encores and boring bolt actions pftth!!! You guys need a Remington 750 semi in

30-06 like i got. I can nock them down with the first round, gut them and hang'em up with 3 follow on shots all as fast as I can pull the trigger.