Doc

Ha-ha ..... Isn't that the truth? It seems that every year there is a different excuse for disappointing harvests. I don't think they have used too warm weather in a bunch of years.....lol. I wonder if they have a book of excuses filed away on a shelf somewhere.

I came across this hunter standing about 50 yards from my house, leaning on the butt of his shotgun with the muzzle resting on top of his boot. The guy was drunker than a skunk. his eyes were blood red, and he was having a hell of a time standing upright. I talked with him a bit just to let him know that the house was there and to remind him of the setback requirements for discharging his gun. He apologized and went staggering off toward the road. I have to admit that I really didn't know what to do. I was a bit concerned for this guy's safety, but didn't realize that I probably should have called the cops or something. This guy was heading back to his car, and he really shouldn't have been anywhere near the road in his condition. I found out later that drunken hunting is illegal too (for good reasons). That experience was probably a lot more scary than strange, and I believe I handled it all wrong. I just never encountered anything like that, and got caught completely off-guard.

No, the NYS Environmental Conservation Laws say nothing about "common sense". There are explicit starting and stopping times and that is a good thing. At least it keeps all those shots in the dark down to a dull roar. Those idiots are using their version of common sense too. The problem is that contrary to their own beliefs, they really don't have any. I get a kick out of those who try to justify ignoring or thumbing their noses at the laws based on inconvenience. It really sounds like the bigger the rack, the more laws it justifies breaking. Hey .... these are the armed people we have out there in the woods with us. And then there are those who are struggling to get everyone to admit that they break the law so they can feel good about doing it themselves. You drive 5 MPH over the speed limit? Well great, let's all go out jack-lighting tonight. Damn ..... what on earth is wrong with you people? You are not talking about accidently or inadvertently or mistakenly breaking the law. You are bragging about or admittedly planning on willful illegal action. And sadly you don't even see anything wrong with that.

As a matter of fact, all through hunting season, it is a daily routine to check the sunset and sunrise times for each day. It's not really that much of an imposition .... lol. I have the weather site bookmarked in the computer, and wham-bam.... it is the easiest thing I will probably do that day. It almost happens automatically since I am in there daily getting the latest read on the wind and weather forecast so I can plan the hunt.

You have zeroed in on my concern exactly. I know that the DEC is determined to get more efficient weapons into a season that they consider a "throw-away" in terms of meeting their deer harvest wants. Yes they tried once a decade ago to cram an early muzzleloader season into bow season territory and failed. They are currently working an end-run in a few WMUs to force an early muzzleloader season (perhaps even a concurrent one). And I am completely convinced that it is simply a matter of time before the debate begins in full. I am also anticipating another huge bowhunter uprising trying to keep bow season for bows. And I am anticipating hearing the same shrill allegations of "selfishness", and "elitism", and all the other whinings that have worked so well in the past for those that would insert themselves into the bow seasons. And so, I am looking specifically at those allegations and knowing what's coming, I am trying to determine whether defending the content of these special seasons does indeed constitute selfishness and elitism.

I've often wondered if there isn't some risk of a cover scent actually spooking deer. I know these dirt scent wafers aren't just a small cake of dirt in a container, and assume that they are chemical compounds where the artificial dirt smell is enhanced in some test tube fashion. I have no idea what other chemicals with their own un-natural scents may be included and which of those ingredients may actually be foreign and alarming to deer. How does the consumer really know how deer are reacting to some of these chemical concoctions?

Not that all this hasn't been discussed to death, you seem to avoid the point that the whole principle of shooting disciplines are essentially the same between all vertical bows. The ideas of back tension, follow through, arm positioning, grip, and all the other form and execution shooting principles that books have been written about are uniform across all the vertically held bows and absolutely irrelevant to crossbow shooting. Yes, the shooting principles of crossbows are firearms related. Even the methods of resting, sighting, various stances, and steadying the crossbow are directly related to rifle shooting. All of these things have been discussed ad infinitum. But I am not going to begin the re-hash of the years of argument all over again. There is no point. I am willing to explain my point of view and opinions, and will occasionally rise to the untrue charges of selfishness and elitism, but there is no point re-explaining things to people who really have no interest in listening.

What? We just make up the rules to whatever suits us. Look, I once was coming home from hunting on a nice moonlit night with snow on the ground and just for the heck of it, I looked through my scope to see if I could see my crosshairs. And by golly I could. does that mean that I should feel justified in shooting any deer that had been out in that field. My gosh some of you people can justify anything. Look, unless we are willing to forgive jack-lighters, we have to call a halt to the day in some organized and recognizable way. At least most of us believe we should. What is wrong with sunrise to sunset. Really .... are you people that desperate? I always have to wonder about people who think they should be able to make their own rules. I wonder just where they draw the line, or if they draw any lines at all. I guess I have had that question answered every opening day morning when I hear those shots in the dark.

But you see, "just the way things are" is basically telling gun hunters that bow season is "our" season, and no deer-guns are welcome. That is the point of this thread. As long as we have any "special seasons", there will always be exclusion, and some very adamant exclusion. And that can be defined as the root of selfishness. We do become protective of our seasons. I am an avid bow and gun hunter ... both weapons. But as a bowhunter, I am essentially saying to gun deer hunters, "Get the hell out of the bowhunting woods with your rifles and shotguns. This is our time to hunt and you are not invited". To me that sounds like a selfish attitude, but I believe it is one that is shared by the overwhelming majority of bowhunters. So my question to you all here, "is that being selfish or not"? Is it normal and natural for participants of one of these special seasons to try to protect those seasons or is there automatically a selfish designation when you try to exclude other hunters from your season? Anyway, I was just kind of taking the temperature of the membership here to see if everytime there is a challenge to the contents of these special seasons (as I believe there will be in the future), will this "selfish" claim be coming up, and indeed is that claim a true assessment of bowhunter attitudes.

I know that everyone has some tried-and-true set of procedures or rules that they use to combat buck fever, but most of them don't work when the real occasion comes. Lets face it, it is an irrational mental condition that can cause a whole variety of symptoms ranging from paralysis to light-headedness. I have heard of guys emptying their gun into the dirt in a buck fever attack. Others couldn't pull their bow back. Others forgot every part of their form checklist and fired before even coming to full draw, and on and on go all the symptoms of an attack of buck fever. I personally have experienced a very huge buck that was playing me for over 1/2 hour, pacing back and forth behind a screen of thin brush, making false advances toward a path that would have put him broadside at 20 yards and then reversing back over to the far side of the brush screen. He was actually staging at the edge of a small field waiting for darkness to step out. He was restless and wanted to go out in the field, but simply would not. Instead he paced back and forth next to me just inside the edge of the thicket. 1/2 hour he taunted me with that nonsense. He had me so worked up that I did have a couple of bouts with light-headedness where I honestly believed I was going to pass out (your basic panic attack). I didn't pass out, but I do believe that when he got done with me, I was a total mess. Finally, it became quitting time (sunset), and all I could do was take a back trail around him and go home. Had he come through that trail and got on my side of the bushes, I have to say that I sincerely doubt that I ever could have made (or even attempted) the shot. So as I hear these so-called buck-fever cures, I have to say that I remain skeptical. There may be times when they might work, but there are occasions that can occur that no matter what you try to do, your mind just will not follow any rules or patterns of behavior.

Don't cure it ...... enjoy it. That is the kind of excitement that I go out hunting for. Those things that cause "buck fever" are the things that make it all worth doing. I have had deer that I could have reached out and touched (if I was fast enough), that provided excitement that came close to having me pass out. That level of intensity makes the whole thing memorable whether I get the deer or not. My goal always is to get the deer as close as possible, and that is just so I can experience that out-of-control excitement that you have.

So, are we bowhunters, and now also crossbow hunters, being selfish in excluding firearms hunters from our season? Are we displaying the "Our-deer" syndrome by demanding special, long seasons that precede any firearms deer hunting? Is there some kind of selfishness being displayed by those that want a large chunk of deer season reserved only to our chosen weapon? Yeah, it sounds like a trolling topic, but I seriously want to know if perhaps over the years I have picked up an element of selfishness in my hunting attitudes as a bowhunter. Does one segment of hunters really deserve preferential treatment over another segment?

Ha-ha-ha ....... We are always looking for that guaranteed fool-proof way to kill a deer. I have often wondered what I would do if someone came up with a scent, sound, or some other gimmick that actually worked every time and simply made the deer come in to be shot ... every time ...... like a lamb led to slaughter. Would I actually use it? I'm pretty sure I would not. Sometimes it is interesting to think about why we are out there. Is it all about proving how well some lab product or manufacturer's ability to invent and market deer-fooling products and substances? When it comes to hunting, that is one situation where I do prefer it to be "all about me" as much as possible. I don't want some "magic potion" ..... lol.

Depending on where you are hunting, there are some spots where you just can't avoid the "swirling" crap. The closer you get to the areas of 8N that get into those steep hills and deep valleys, the more unpredictable wind direction becomes. I have seen certain areas that blow 180 degrees from any forecasted wind direction or any of the surrounding areas. I have one spot next to a 200' deep vertical rock walled ravine where the wind is never consistent for more that 5 minutes. It is a great area to see and be scented by deer. They love this area, because they have scent warning systems from all directions.....lol.

I have seen so much creative land posting over the years. Some of it looks like the guy just wandered through the woods nailing signs anyplace he found a good tree. Some people don't seem to grasp the concept .... lol.

I understand it is ridiculous also. I too have never seen an itisoktog in any books either. You've got a good point there bubba. Sorry ..... I couldn't help myself.

But wait until next year. You will be thrilled that they logged it as you see what has grown up in it's place. As far as the weather, it is always a pain in the butt at this time of year. That is just something we have to accept and learn to adapt to.

First of all, I have never called a compound bow primitive equipment. Although 95% of the shooting principles and disciplines of a compound are exactly the same as those of longbows and recurves, no one can look at that contraption and call it primitive. I can't recall back when bowseason was established anyone using the word "primitive" either. Believe me with the laminated fancy recurves and the beautiful lines and the modern engineered designs of the day, we didn't look at them as being primitive. They were state of the art archery equipment. But we did understand that shooting any bow with all the form disciplines and drawing procedures, restrictions and other crazy rigid and unyielding requirements, shooting a bow of any kind did pose a unique challenge for harvesting deer and that was the appeal and the reason that the season was originated. Frankly, I don't think that it would make any difference to the attitudes of any of the crossbow proponents whether or not "the season was longbow/recurve only". Actually the desire to force themselves into bow season has very little to do with the weapon itself other than the fact that it is pretty rifle-like and easy to shoot without all those nasty shooting form requirements. I don't believe there are a whole lot of people who are madly in love with crossbows. The whole deal is that people are looking at the season itself with the warmer weather, and the less frantic hunting atmosphere and the positioning of the rut and saying to themselves, "You know if I could get into that season with something that isn't so damn hard to shoot, I'd love to bust into that season". Come on, let's be honest. That's really what all the fuss is about. As far as the comments about crossbows allowing more people to be afield, lets be honest, it really boils down to a simple re-distribution of gun hunters into bow season. A way has now been found to allow gun hunters to break into bow seasons without a lot of demanding pain, and don't be expecting that trend to end with crossbows.

I would think the state would be interested in knowing that. Usually there is one of the DEC people at each region that is responsible for some of the parcels in that region. He is the guy you want to be talking to.

8N may have an outstanding reputation for high deer kills, but that doesn't mean that every acre of that WMU is full of deer. one thing to remember is that it is in a highly pressured area with a high hunter population, so you have to expect high harvests. Also, it is a widely varied habitat, not all of which is suitable for deer. So if you have had problems with the season so far, do not get discouraged. Just try changing up locations a little bit, and see what happens.

Huh???? Did you mean to start a new thread or something? I don't understand the connection between the topic and your reply. Interesting comment and interesting statistic, but what has that got to do with what was being talked about?

If your priorities don't allow the time to master your weapon, I think it is probably not the method of hunting for you. Time doesn't allow me to utilize all the hunting opportunities that are available. That's just the way life is constructed. But I don't feel that everyone need to move over and make way for my personal schedule. But then that's just me. Now in terms of your "selfishness" comment that crossbow proponents are so fond of using, now that you have successfully shoved your way into bow season, it will be interesting to see how magnanimous you people are when the muzzleloaders step into "your" season. Although, you may actually have more common ground with them than I am thinking. I know you have no alignments with the concepts that bowhunting was originally created for, so perhaps you will welcome all kinds of firearms or anything other than those time-consuming bows into your new bow season.

Yeah, it must have been the tempo ....lol.

Really? I wish I would have been paying attention. I didn't see much difference, but then that's not surprising since I am out of the game this year. It would have been interesting to have gone down to the state parking lots to see if there was any significant difference in the number of cars. It doesn't seem to be much response to this thread so we are not going to get any idea from here.

I have heard the theory of pushing deer to prevent them from laying up and licking the wound, etc. And I do have to admit that whenever tracking a deer and coming to a bed, the next blood was always a problem finding. I have been lucky and have been able to eventually find the next blood after the bed, but was always a tough challenge. That does lend some credibility to that idea of pushing deer, and keeping the wound open and working and denying them a chance to administer their version of emergency first-aid. But I still have not really adopted that procedure. For one thing, I am not really that fast to be very effective at running down a deer, even a badly wounded one.....lol. And that whole idea does run contrary to 99% of everything I have ever heard or read about deer tracking. I guess I will leave that kind of experimentation to other people .... lol. I'll stay with the conventional wisdom on this one.