Doc

First of all let's straighten out the mis-statements about numbers of bow hunters today vs. the number of bowhunters at any time in the past. Bow season participation has never been a declining activity and has been increasing steadily in numbers of bowhunters since it's inception. There was never a time when there were twice as many bowhunters as there are today. I am repeatedly adding emphasis to the "bow" part of hunting because it is strictly a bowhunting issue that we are talking about here, with crossbow introduction having nothing to do with gun hunter stats. So I just wanted to clear that up before anyone took that "twice as many" statement seriously. As relates to the discussions here that stat is irrelevant. Adding crossbows into bow season will have no positive effect on gun season participants. So we will continue to see gun hunter and overall hunting population slides. I think that one issue that keeps this crossbow rift going is this idea that everywhere, there is an unlimited amount of hunting land and absolutely no reason for excess hunter density anywhere during bow season. If I hunted only land that was being way underutilized, or that I could simply keep other people off of by decree and with posted signs, I might have a different opinion on crossbows too. In terms of crossbows adding to the overall hunter numbers, I'll believe that when I see it. Yes I think there will be a significant shift from gun hunter to crossbow hunters. And that's all it will be is a redistribution of season participants. If I am wrong about that, I will be happily surprised and freely admit that I was wrong. But unfortunately I believe I will be proven correct.

Do not confuse the real world with the world of a defeatist. Yes, if they have convinced you that you are beaten before you begin, then I guess you are. Another thing that can send chills down the spine of a politician is even if we come close and they can imagine that given some other circumstances perhaps in the next elections, they will become the anti-gun politician that feels the wrath of the voters in ways that will cost them their jobs. There is something about a dedicated and determined large block of voters that shapes the political attitudes of the future even if they do not lose their election. Also do not ignore the fact that some of these guys have other factions beyond just gun owners that hate their guts over any number of issues. It's not just Cuomo vs gun owners. But on the other hand if we have people preaching doom and gloom here and other places, it quickly becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy as more and more gun owners stay away from the polls. Such defeatists attitudes merely do the work of the antis for them.

So your answer is to simply throw in the towel and wait until they come to take the guns? You're absolutely within your rights to do that, but please forgive the rest of us who think gun ownership is worth a bit of a fight.

It's a delicate balance trying to incite an apathetic bunch like gun owners to political action without creating some kind of unruly mob that frightens all onlookers. Absolutely we have some fringe extremists in our ranks and some people that actually scare the rest of us with their rhetoric of hate and violence. We've seen it on these pages. BUT.... advocating silencing and abandoning demonstrations and backing off on our calls to action are not the kinds of answers we need from our leaders. I am happy that he acknowledges that we have some people who go too far. It is good that he is concerned about that and I wish he had ideas on controlling that end of the reactions without declaring retreat. I must say that I am not super impressed with his statements. It is going to take some convincing of gun owners that we have a dedicated movement that they should join. It is necessary that people be convinced that this is a movement that can win and not just an exercise in sticking their necks out and then being abandoned by the leaders of our gun advocacy organizations at the very time when their inspiration is most needed. We have a real serious test of gun owner's rights coming up in a mere 7 months. We have a need for gun owners to come out to the polls as a unified, dedicated, one-issue block of voters. That is unprecedented, and now is not the time for any forms of retreat. What is at stake goes way beyond the Safe Act. We need to send a message to politicians that will last for decades. If we show signs of flagging dedication from our leaders, there is no doubt in my mind that we can look forward to a massive flurry of draconian gun laws that will make the safe act look very mild in comparison. I've said it before. Cuomo has handed us a once in a lifetime rallying point. We cannot afford to squander it. King's remarks have been a giant step towards doing exactly that.

So what's the deal guys. Are you getting this hobby to pay off yet? Any spots on TV? The quality and content are certainly as good as anything I've seen on TV, plus the subject matter being eastern coyotes makes it a very rare critter and surroundings to see on TV and is something I'm sure that a lot of viewers have been looking for. You guys obviously know what the heck you are doing, and I would expect instructional videos would be real popular. We do have some uniqueness here in the northeast that requires different tactics and procedures than those instructional videos from the westerners. Things like scouting, call selection and usage, set-up, all are things that would help out a lot of predator hunters and I'm sure people would pay good money to get that kind of help.

You are right, but acting recklessly is a subjective issue that can only be ascertained by a court usually after a tragedy has occurred. It seems rather easy to take opinion and judgment out of the equation simply by writing the law completely and without loopholes. Write the law correctly and cases become black and white, and can be resolved before something tragic happens. Leave the law in the hands of interpretation, opinion, and judgment, as well as a reliance of two or more interdependent laws, and you have just created an un-necessary problem.

$20 at Bed Bath & Beyond. I had to have it ...... Now I've got it ....lol. I just finished off munching down an apple. The thing works flawlessly.

That is one of the inconveniences of living in among a lot of people. We have accepted that inconvenience when it comes to guns, and there also has to at least be an attempt made to legally control those that would be idiots with their other weapons. If I were king, the law would be amended to add a clause that makes it illegal to shoot at an occupied or occasionally occupied structure or occupied yard within some given distance. For bows, I would think 100 yards would be adequate (not a guarantee, but reasonably safe). I would have that interpreted as: if your back is toward a neighbors house (shooting away from his property line) the entire width of your property would count toward that 100 yard minimum. If your property width is less than 100 yards, you should be looking for a public archery range or some state land or a friends property where those conditions can be met. Let's pretend that you look out your window and find that your neighbor has set up a couple of hay bales the legal 50 yards from your house, or your yard where your kids are playing. Maybe even lined up with the sandbox and swingset. This new setback law as currently understood, would leave you no legal recourse to put a stop to that (until something real ugly happens). Your kids would have to be barred from playing outdoors every time your neighbor decided to shoot his bow. Is that a reasonable situation? Somehow, what is in the background behind the butt, has to be part of the law wording. It never has been, and probably never will be But it should be! To me, I don't care if deer are eating every living piece of vegetation or whatever, having an law that protects unsafe situations to the point where homeowners lose the use of chunks of their property is simply not acceptable.

Ha-ha ..... You call it "bickering", I call it discussion and opinion. Anytime you have someone trying to shove their way into the established domain of others, don't ever expect it to happen quietly. Aggression always results in conflict.

And that is what made you fly off the handle? Gosh you really do seem to live in a spring-loaded, pissed off position all the time don't you. Maybe I might suggest that if you want to conduct a private conversation, use the messaging system. That way you can dictate exactly how you want the conversation to be conducted.

Wow! They did a heck of a job on that mount. I like it!

He was asking about situations and what could be done, and I answered him with the fact that the situation doesn't matter as long as you are not on the neighbor's property and not shooting, and what can be done by the neighbor is basically nothing. I'm not sure why you are getting all screwed into a knot over that. Is there anything there that you disagree with, or are you just intent on arguing over nothing (as usual)? get a grip, and save your random attacks for something worth attacking over....lol.

Good ol' Johnny one-note .... lol. Whenever you're stumped for a response, you keep trotting out the same old word. But actually, what I said was absolutely true and as far as I know is a perfectly legal scenario. I'm simply illustrating that proximity doesn't effect legality until you fire a weapon. Why do you care anyway? You aren't one of those that would actually do that are you?....You aren't, are you?....lol

Actually, as long as the neighbor doesn't own the property, there is nothing he can do about someone sitting in a stand even at 10' away from his house, and even if it overlooks the guy's bedroom. No law is broken unless an arrow or gun is fired. You certainly have to wonder about the mentality of someone that would do that ..... lol. But legally he always could do that with or without the new law.

You know that most hunters will show proper respect and courtesy. You also know that not all will. Do all people in these kinds of tight situations take the time and effort to gather recovery permissions from all possible neighbors whose properties may have to be available for the track and recovery part of a typical bowhunt? Those that don't .... what is their strategy to recover deer that don't drop in their tracks? Are they out there shooting deer until one falls in a location where they can recover? Do they simply count on trespassing to do whatever they must to get the deer?

Wait a minute ...... You didn't mention about the gun being one of those evil assault rifles so I will assume that it is one of the "uncontrolled", unregistered variety. And I seriously doubt that anything special has to be done to sell or buy that style of rifle between two NYS individuals. Certainly there are no requirements that are in any way truly enforceable. Your average rifle has no title or proof of ownership, or any other document that shows who it belongs to in any official state database or anywhere else. Most of my guns have absolutely no proof of ownership at all. So who would ever know there was ever any transaction at all? One guy hands a rifle to another, anybody walking up can not tell which one owns it, can they? Sure enough, considering my lack of credibility on matters of law (old and new), I absolutely could be wrong on this. But I really don't see what sort of paperwork or proof of transaction would be used on a gun that has no requirement for registration. So why would any special procedure be required and how is anyone going to prove that any transaction at all has even taken place?

It may really come down to how wishy-washy the public is and how this intimate closeness of hunting becomes. Some may just simply sit there and stew about it, perhaps seething and becoming new bowhunting enemies where they did not exist before. Others may take a more aggressive reaction and start passing around petitions to set up a town vote to eliminate all hunting within their borders. Neither result is great news for any of us. And all for what? So we can hunt in voyeuristic proximity to landowners and their families? Or perhaps so we can create perceived or even real safety issues with our neighbors?

It is possible that many towns will be banning bow discharge completely within their boundaries. Then, what will have been accomplished in terms of opening more areas to hunting? You can only push people so far and when these kinds of invasions on their personal space and perceived safety get to be too much, they will push back.

There is no way that I ever could have imagined that someone would change the law such that a home owner could open his door and be staring at some camo-clad guy squatting in the bushes 50 yards away grinning back at him. I also find it hard to imagine that a homeowner could be forced to look next door and be looking at the business end of a drawn arrow and having no legal right to put an end to either situation. Every day, I am thankful for the decision to buy enough property to eliminate the need for putting up with such legally sanctioned nonsense. I keep trying to imagine why anyone would want the right to invade other people's space in that fashion. What would the quality of hunt really be when you sit there listening to another family's dinner conversation, arguments, kids screaming and playing, TV blaring, or perhaps have the family dog sitting at the base of your tree barking at you? I would feel absolutely foolish sitting 50 yards from someone's house, pretending I was hunting. People must have a lot different views on what hunting should look like than I do ..... lol.

I think the idea is to at least have the capability to overshoot the mark since deer populations have been proven to come back rather quickly. But, it is starting to appear that there are limitations in some areas as to what large numbers of permits can achieve. And with so much of the potential harvest season being taken up with what they consider to be inefficient bowhunters, their options for cutting populations are limited. I can see the logic. I may not like it, but I do understand it. Now granted, all this is strictly theory based on the conversation that I overheard plus some of the crazy, almost begging, that I have witnessed when it came to post application, permit peddling, and some of the policies and decisions that have been prevalent of late regarding the introduction or attempted introductions of more efficient weapons into the bowhunting time slot. But I must say that it is all starting to make some sense when it is all viewed in its entirety.

Yes, that "nothing" organization, and the entire gun hunting population, and the media. Absolutely, little NYB kicked your butt for a lot longer than anyone really thought possible.

That was the point of their conversation. They were lamenting the fact that that time spans has been essentially removed from being available for harvest management. What do you think is behind the DEC push for crossbows and the attempts to cram muzzleloaders into an early season? They are all about maximizing their abilities to cut populations. They know that if they go overboard, they can simply cut way back on permit numbers. It's not so easy to do the opposite. It is getting more and more difficult to hand out all the permits. and with hunter populations shrinking, it makes some areas where they simply cannot drop the population adequately. My area 8N comes immediately to mind where they have been pushing permit like crazy and the herd still is increasing. Anyway, I believe that they may be viewing bowhunters as "being in their way". And that does explain a whole lot of policy statements and positions and decisions.

No, you wouldn't believe the slow archaic way I struggle through it. Basically it has gotten to the point where I don't even eat an apple if somebody doesn't peel it for me.

Oh yeah, but you all deserved taunting .... lol. Actually, I thought that was kind of slick myself. You guys were so convinced that it all was a done deal and little tiny NYB kicked your butt back yet another year. Yeah, I'll admit to a little smile crossing my face. It was kind of a David and Goliath thing going on there. My only question is what took you guys so long?.....ha-ha-ha.

What did you do? Did you just run down to the shop and try one out .... ha-ha.