Doc

Probably I have a little faster temper than most, but there are some things that will send me off the deep end in a hurry. When it comes to safety violations, that gets me going the fastest. It is probably a fear reaction that comes with realizing just how hazardous some of these situations could have become. Another thing that will send me spiraling to near out of control is someone dis-respecting my property owner rights by trespassing. I just can't understand that kind of attitude and it's not the kind of thing where I feel much like turning the other cheek.

Here's a cheerful thought ...... Some of those people that you see on America's Funniest Home Videos are probably hunters.

Walking is just one of my exercise activities. My driveway is about 800 feet long. I have finally completed clearing brush down both sides of it for the entire length. Almost time to start at the top again. And of course in the summer months, none of that is mowed with a riding lawnmower. Too many stones and stumps. The old Dr-Trimmer does the whole job. Anyone who has ever used one of those things knows that that is quite a chore, especially up and down those ditch banks. That's quite an exercise routine ..... lol. I've often wondered how many miles I actually walk pushing that Dr-Trimmer each time I mow that area. All that stuff thrown in with a rather large picnic area that I keep maintained, and all the other projects around the property, and my little walks over at Canadice Lake and Kershaw Park, and Hi-Tor actually seem a bit trivial .... lol. I probably don't really have to do any of that stuff, but I figure if I don't keep moving, I'll rust ;D .

Sure I try to be cordial to all hunters that I come across, but there have been times when I have simply lost it and went off on some over the years. There have been the trespassers that I have no patience with since my lines are posted such that when approaching it you are always within sight of at least three signs. I purposely set it up that way to avoid any excuses. And then there have been a couple of guys who have been a bit careless with where the muzzle of the gun was pointing as we were conversing. Things like watching the muzzle of a 12 guage swing across my mid-section, of my knees, kind of set me off a bit. Then there was the guy that was so drunk that he could barely stand up. That guy was standing about 50 yards away from my house. I gave him a bit of a lecture and sent him on his way. I found out later that I could have had him arrested for hunting while drunk. If I had known that, I definitely would have. What a menace!

I'm sure that motive does apply in some cases, but the guys that I have seen in full camo (including grease-paint on the face and hands) were in the middle of some very popular state land. So it definitely was not a tresspassing thing. Two of them were there on opening day when the hunter density is at its thickest. It's hard to imagine. My feeling is that anyone who would be so careless about their own personal safety, probably cannot be counted on to be worrying about mine.

I have also noted the advance of poison ivy in our area over the past decades. I also seem to remember reading an article somewhere quite a long time ago, that the problem has been noted by the DEC, but I can't remember the details. I know that for those who are allergic to it, it is some very nasty stuff. My reactions to it seem to vary from one year to another. For example, this year I was pulling some weeds and next thing I knew, I had a handful of poison ivy. Fortunately, this must be a year when my resistance to the stuff is up because I didn't get affected. However during other years I have. In our area, it is so widespread that it would be financially impossible to eradicate, or even have much of an impact. I don't think that our area has any poison oak but then I might not really be able to identify it if I saw it.

I am amazed at all the different ways that hunters have found to kill, wound and maim themselves and each other. It appears that in 2010, they simply threw all rules of safety away. Perhaps this explains why I am so hung up on defensive hunting techniques. Even these people who are doing it to themselves show a marked tendency toward stupidity, and those people are out there among us and capable of sending bullets our way. I did note that there was a couple ricochet incidents and another that involved a pass-through on a deer. So those that think the odds are completely against a bullet or a slug finding its way through the woods and into their body might just consider some of these. And this is the results of only one year.

Thinking about that bullet is part of what keeps me alive. Any time that I see another hunter posted near me, I move out. No arguing, no discussion, I'm just gone. Anytime I see a still hunter coming, I am completely focused on what he is doing. Send through the biggest buck in the woods, and I probably won't see him because I am zeroed in on that hunter and what he is doing. While on stand, I always have a huge tree to my back, kind of like a bullet-proof vest (for my blind side), and I am always scanning for deer, but also for oncoming hunters. One of the most important defensive maneuvers is always wearing lots of blaze orange (usually a complete blaze orange suit). I also wish NYS had a blaze orange law. I don't believe that a hunter who I can see will ever do me in. I'm too defensive minded for that and do know how to hit the dirt when I see a hunter starting to do something threatening. But these clowns that sneak around the woods in full camo do have a chance and if I can't see them, I can't defend against them. All of these defensive hunting techniques do not spoil my hunting. They are just built in hunting techniques. It is all not a problem, it is just exercising common sense and recognizing that I am not the only one in the woods.

I haven't seen any super-detailed reports on NYS hunting accidents, especially when it comes to "distances". You might check with your DEC regional headquarters. When it comes to media reporting, they often do not even report non-fatal accidents, so it's really quite hard to say if there is even a pattern to the distances. My "guess" would be that most accidents probably occur within 100 yards ..... especially with shotguns. However, that's not to say that longer range accidents don't happen. In fact I do recall a case where a bullet passed through a house wall and passed through a baby's empty crib matress a couple of years ago. That one was claimed to have been shot at a distance of a couple hundred yards.

Nope, I do not know anyone killed in a shooting accident. However, I have had a few close calls that easily could have gone another way. Countless times over the years I have had to tell hunters to point their gun in a safe direction. I don't mind talking to other hunters when they come up to me, but that habit of supporting the gun in the crook of their elbow with the muzzle waving back and forth across my knees or belly has happened way too often. Some of them like to grab the barrel and support the gun on their shoulder with the barrel pointed at anybody who is standing in front of them. They all probably think I'm paranoid to because I'm usually not to calm and kind when I tell them to point that thing somewhere else. Had another guy resting the muzzle of his shotgun on the top of his boot, while leaning on the butt. Ran into another guy who was just able to stand up that smelled like a whiskey barrel. Kind of tough even understanding what he was trying to say. No, that wasn't a near miss (as far as I know) I have also heard that buzz of a slug that passed near me. While sighting in our shotguns, I had a couple of Canadians that my Brother-in-law brought down. One had the thought that he should be practicing rapid fire. The other one was fiddling with his gun while we were walking up to check the targets and accidentally touched off a shot behind us. Those two were instructed to hunt on the far hill, and my Brother-in-law was instructed never to bring any more friends. I also watched a guy off quite a ways swinging on a deer that was running between us. I guess my orange suit must have caught his attention before he hit the trigger. Thank God for blaze orange! I have watched all kinds of people mis-handle their weapons from a safety aspect including hunters on TV on safari that seem to think it's cool to grab the barrel and balance the rifle on top of their shoulder ....... with the muzzle pointed directly at the back of the guy in front of them. Check some of those programs out. You won't have to watch too many of them before you see that little trick. So maybe the fact that we don't all know somebody shot during season is more a case of dumb-luck than anything else. You know.....It's not real nice to have your life counting on dumb luck. So if some people get a bit paranoid and begin to take self defense into account when they are hunting, I guess I would rather hunt with them than the guys who think that accidents never happen to them. Over the years, I have developed some extra-special defensive maneuvers and rules for my hunting. I have no idea whether that has saved my life or avoided some life-altering wound, and I don't even care. Paranoid??? .....Maybe. One other thing that I might mention is that quite often we hear about hunting fatalities, but seldom does the maiming accidents get widespread coverage.

Lol.... there goes that old "selfish" allegation that is such a favorite on this forum. I guess when you don't have a clue what else to say on a subject, throw in a few insults. One thing that seems to elude a lot of people is that it was the either sex aspect of bowhunting that has made the sport grow to the extent that it has. Many bowhunters without the either sex harvest capability would have given up bowhunting a long time ago. And don't be giving me that "back-patting" crap about how they must be some kind of deficient hunters if they need that kind of incentive. That's just the way the sport evolved and being that bowhunting is already a highly handicapped way of harvesting deer, it has worked out very well for the sport and actually makes a lot of sense. Furthermore, I have never seen any proof that the antlerless harvest due to bows has ever made the deer go extinct anywhere in the state or has had any significant impact whatsoever. If it has, I would like to see some sort of documentation. Basically inspite of a few very brief situations due to things other than the bow harvest, the DEC is normally in a constant battle trying to reduce the ever expanding deer population. I know there are a lot of people that claim the DEC has totally removed deer from their area, but it usually isn't very long before they are talking about seeing deer all over the place again. So before people start talking about further limitations on bowhunters, and talking about how "selfish" they are, perhaps a little proof that the either sex harvest capability is really doing some harm might be appropriate. In the very few areas where there might be a problem maintaining deer, there might be some local actions that might make some sense. But making a statewide change is the same sort of tunnel-vision solutions that show up so much in the suggestions read on these forums.

Basically, we harvest what the paid experts tell us is appropriate. We are not the biologists. We pay the DEC to make their decisions based on what we hope are sound scientific principles. I guess what we are saying is that they cannot be trusted to do that. My take on this DMP application to bows and muzzleloaders thing is that as long as there is a single antlerless permit being given out in any particular WMU, then the either sex tag in Bow or muzzle loader is appropriate in that WMU. Those areas where they have shut off permits completely indicate a severe and un-natural problem and there might be something there to be talked about. However, I have looked at the permit allocations across the state and have found only a few WMUs that have shut off permits. It is a rare case. Those very few special cases may have cause to nullify the doe harvest ability of bow and muzzleloader licenses.

I enjoy shooting my compound and then using it to harvest some meat. The combination of a challenging gained shooting skill and then applying that skill to my hunting makes it the perfect hunting experience. I have no need for a crossbow.

Most likely your observations come less from the style of weapon than from the fact that most "shotgun only" counties are closer to cities and thicker population areas which of course supply a greater volume of hunters per square mile. I myself have seen some state land conditions where I was constantly running into other hunters. My guess is the general rule might be that "the more hunters packed into any one area, the more likelyhood that some percentage of them are careless or reckless". I guess that's probably why they became "shotgun only" areas in the first place. Placing a rifle in their hands is not going to change the attitudes of unsafe hunters. But it will extend the range of their recklessness. I have to be honest, I think it is the crazy stuff that residents in these more populated areas have seen during shotgun seasons that make them a bit concerned about the change to rifles. Don't get me wrong, I was pushing for the change to rifles in Ontario County. I have no love affair with that 12 guage Ithaca mangling my shoulder every year. But I have also listened to concerned people and much of what they had to say was very hard to argue with. When you talk to anyone that adjoins state land, they all have a long list of personal horror stories, so their opposition comes from some very real scenarios.

I've got to ask again.....Does anyone know of an area that is not regaining its population because of the does being taken by bowhunters and muzzle loader hunters? And I'm not talking about perception, but actual DEC stats.

Last time I looked, there were way more WMUs where permits are issued than not which indicates that they are mostly engaged in shrinking or holding steady deer populations. Yes there are some areas where they are trying to rebuild the herd but they are generally few and are the exceptions rather than the rule. Now, relative to this idea of increased "control", per the proposed changes, if I purchase my regular bow license, I would assume that that would come with a buck tag only. Also, as proposed, I would not have a legal right to shoot that doe if I didn't put in for the DMP, or if I did apply for it and because of the luck of the lottery was denied. In effect we have changed from a system where I definitely would have the ability to harvest that doe to one where I can't unless I successfully get selected for a permit. Am I mistaken about anything so far? If I have all that right so far, it doesn't matter if the buck and doe were standing side by side or the doe came out by herself, in neither case would I have the legal right to harvest that doe.... period. The way it is currently, if that doe comes down the trail I can and would take her. So if the DEC wants that doe taken, they have potentially lost the ability to allow me to do that with this proposal. So in effect they have lost some level of control on the reduction side of the equation because they have taken some of the bowhunters and muzzleloader hunters out of the doe-harvesting pool. So yes, if they want to build up the herd, they have an ideal tool for shutting down the doe harvest. For population reduction however, they would have just shot themselves in the foot. Is that better control? Probably not when you consider that herd reduction is primarily what they are faced with over most of the state each year.

Actually we have two threads pertaining to this same question of supposed control claimed by changing bowhunter and ML to the DMP system. I addressed this comment on the other one.

The other thing that nobody ever thinks about is the predator hunters with their rifles, or the muzzle loaders which seemed to have been implemented without any county input. I realize that it isn't quite the same thing, but is somewhere between a shotgun and a rifle. What I found in our little struggle with deer rifles in Ontario County was that what people don't know doesn't seem to bother them.....lol. The deer rifle proposal actually passed the county legislature once and made it through the state senate and assembly and was laying on the Governor's desk. Then they realized that the wording allowed rifle use in all of Ontario County which they didn't want so Ontario County requested that the Governor veto it ..... which he did. Second time through, the bill died in the senate committee because they were all tied up doing the state budget. On the third attempt, it went back to square one, with a public hearing (which they didn't do first time around) and a new vote by the County. This time everyone was aware what was happening and those against rifles got organized and it didn't pass. So we actually had the whole thing in the bag as a nearly done-deal when nobody knew what was going on .... . That's a little heads up for those that are trying to implement rifles into their counties.....lol. So yes, pistols and all kinds of flatter trajectory weapons have been and will be used in NYS deer season and out of deer season, but that doesn't seem to occur to anybody. What I don't understand is that rifles in deer season seems to be a county by county decision, and yet all these other situations seem to be changed at the overall state level with no county input. Why is that ?

The wife and I do a 3 mile hike daily (weather permitting). In fact we have been doing that for more than 4 years now. In the winter months it's 3 miles on the treadmill. And all that is probably the least of my exercise during the summer months with all the grounds-keeping activities and other projects....lol. As far as running is concerned, I don't do run. That's nothing new, I haven't done anything other than a fast paced walk for many decades. Favorite place to walk is the old logging and access road down the west side of Canadice Lake. I can also be found down at Hi-Tor in Naples, Kershaw Park in Canandaigua, or the gravel access road along Hemlock Lake. Hunting is no strain for me although I will say that deer dragging can be a bit of a struggle. That's kind of hard to develop an exercise for ..... ;D .

I see that so-called "improved control" only working in one direction, that direction being in rebuilding a decimated herd. Yes, the DMP system can shut down doe harvests. However, as far as the other, more frequent, direction of removing population (which is mostly what they have historically been trying to do), I do have difficulty understanding how taking away automatic issuance of antlerless tags from bowhunters and ML hunters and maybe returning tags back to them via a game of chance is really going to accomplish that. Very likely they will further discourage bowhunter and ML participation in doe harvests by charging an application fee for the permit lottery as well. So, on one hand we are whining about how poor the doe harvest rate is and on the other we are trying to throw all kinds of roadblocks in front of those harvests. And you're trying to tell me that makes sense? What is perfectly clear is that this is just as someone else commented .... it has nothing to do with better management, but has everything to do with selling antlerless tags. It suddenly occurred to them that they have all these people with free antlerless tags that they could be making some cash off of.

So if I take away all antlerless tags from a bowhunters and ML hunters that they currently get automatically, and make them instead apply for a chance at getting one (meaning some will not), I am somehow improving the doe take? And somehow forcing them into a lottery proves something about their intent to use them, which helps the doe harvest how??? Doesn't make a bit of sense to me. There has to be something I'm not catching on to here.

I may not be understanding the question very well, but perhaps the answer lies in the theory behind the DMP system. Theoretically WMU 8H with the larger population would be issued more permits and so more hunters would have better odds at successfully being chosen for a permit and result in harvesting more does. 8M on the other hand, with fewer deer would be issued fewer permits and the odds of hunters getting those permits would be smaller. So the area with the thinner herd would have a lower harvest of does. Now what impacts that you might see as you get close to the border may or may not be what the DEC was really after, so the DMP system may not work quite as well in those localities. I probably missed the question by a mile ..... lol.

And of course it's not a magic bullet or a step in the right direction because of the remainder of my reply above.

My point is that you were stating how you "feel safer sharing the woods with hunters armed with scope sighted rifles" as if simply because someone is using a rifle with a scope that somehow they become super responsible and safe. Well given the example that obviously isn't true. And also, you seemed to forget that I gave two examples. The second situation also involved a rifle and was way beyond the 500'. But I'm not going to discuss individual incidents because I'm sure there are far more of them than I am aware of. Just let it be sufficient that the point has been made that rifles don't make safer hunters. That coupled with the fact that reckless hunters who are given a weapon that can extend the impacts of their recklessness might just cause a reasonable person to have some concerns. Now if you can't understand why people might have some concerns along those lines I can't help you out there. I am simply explaining why I think Ontario County nixed the rifle bill. And while I would have loved to use a rifle for deer, I am not completely unsympathetic to those who had some doubts about the change.

I've been trying to figure out how removing the current automatic antlerless tags from bowhunters and muzzleloaders and making these tags subject to a lottery is really going to help control herds on posted land or anywhere else. Just the fact that it is a lottery would seem to indicate that some of those hunters will be denied an antlerless tag. So if archers and ML hunters are already inefficient at removing does, how are you going to make them more efficient by putting the element of chance into antlerless tags? I guess I don't follow that one.