Doc

That kind of bickering is quite an eye-opener, isn't it? Hunters and gun owners are un-organizable, and this thread seems to be pointing to at least one of the reasons why. I've heard the same kind of nonsense with other sportsmen's organizations. So on issues where we seem to be constantly losing ground to the antis, I guess it's not that much of a mystery anymore is it? :

Deer can't go nocturnal if you don't let them... if you go find them and dog their butt it's hard for them to be nocturnal... And years ago, that's exactly what used to happen. There used to be huge drives that basically beat out any kinds of sanctuary areas that the deer were trying to hang up in. Guys used to stand for about an hour and then be constantly on their feet snooping and pushing every little patch of brush and every little thicket. That's the way it was ...... not the way it is. Yes, as an individual, you can go root them out, but as a general trend in today's hunting, that simply is not happening. Hunters are content to sit all hunkered down at the base of a tree for a few hours and then head out to their cars. And that is why so many guys are getting the impression that there are no deer around. That's not to say that there are not areas where real deer scarcity occurs, but that does explain why some people in some areas say the herds are devasted when sightings after the season, and other sign observed by those that recognize deer sign say otherwise.

I'm not sure just how many future hunters we actually influence on internet forums. I think the reasons for shrinking numbers are varied and many, but I suspect that forums have a very small impact on that situation. My thought is that the biggest impacts are cultural, and while we don't really like to hear it, I believe the anti-hunting organizations are having their impacts on hunting and how the public views the activity. Quite simply, they are heavily financed and organized and have the ear of the media while we are content to remain divided and disorganized. It's kind of hard to win the hearts and minds of perspective hunters when we continue to handicap ourselves in that way. The public perception of hunting continues to slide into something that many people would rather not be associated with. The way I see it, the handwriting is already on the wall, and I don't feel real optomistic that the trends can ever be reversed.

Now there's an idea that I haven't heard before. I like it!!!!

Excellent observation! However, I might add that even the hunters that are out in the woods these days seem to be far less serious and dedicated than in years past. We seem to have a lot of 1/2 day hunters, or guys that cut their entire season to 1 or 2 days. Also, those that do actually go into the woods during the season seem to be sitters who park themselves in one spot all day (isn't modern-day, high tech clothing wonderful?). There is enough pressure and presence of hunters in the woods to allow the deer to understand there is a season going on, but they are all the hunters are stationery which allows the deer to find little areas of sanctuary and not move a bit until dark. So your comment is spot-on. During the season, it is getting harder and harder to really appreciate just how many deer there actually are.

So, just out of curiosity, does anyone know what state or province has a documented breeding population of mountain lions closest to NYS's borders?

Lol.... Now this thread is sounding a whole lot more like something I would expect to read in a NYS forum.

See....The DEC is doing a good thing when they give everyone a pocket full of antlerless permits and encourage the farmers to shoot every deer that comes anywhere near their crops.... ;D

I started bowling once a week several months ago. No league or anything, just open bowling. Man am I lousy at it. I don't really seem to be improving at all and each week it looks like I had never picked up a bowling ball in my life. Zero consistancy and crappy scores. There's no damn sight on the thing to aim with. By the way, just to add insult to injury, my wife started at the same time and has been slaughtering me. She has a natural talent for bowling and keeps getting better every week. She has been averaging in the 140's and occasionally gets a few 180's. meanwhile I'm happy as hell if I break 120. : But it's still fun. I just like throwing things at something and watching the stuff fall down. ;D Ha-ha, it's just another new trick I'm trying to teach this old dog ......

Somebody still has to man the controls on a 24/7 basis somewhere .... right? However, a couple of tweaks and we could get the manual labor element right out of it. Perhaps the guns could be hooked up to motion sensors that would blow everything flat that moved out there ..... lol. That would save some man-hours of hog removal time. You might even be able to pick up an occasional trespasser or two as well. Add in a couple of full-auto rifles, and a reciprocating sweep mechanism that allows the lead to cover the whole field, and you could have a doozy of a high-tech varmint eradicator.

So, I see the NRA part of this thread has completely disappeared, so what the heck, I'll just go with the flow.....lol How many hours a day do most of you each spend researching the dozens (hundreds?) of candidates that will be running for office in the next primaries and elections (local, school, county, state, federal)? That local Town Supervisor who had absolutely no prior voting record ..... How did you make up your mind about his/her beliefs and qualifications? Was it based on who spun you the best yarn during the campaign? There are potential congressmen and senators who today you have never heard of. When will you begin your research on all of them? How about that judge that will be running? Anybody here study his case judgements to see if they are decisions that you agree with? Those that claim to vote for the "best" candidate ..... what kinds of investigation techniques are you using to figure out whether they deserve your vote or not. Will you wait until the campaigns begin and pick whatever soundbites or political attacks or rumors or innuendos that sound the most convincing? I have always been curious as to how people so confidently arrive at this feeling that they have voted for the "best" person. Political party affiliation may be a lousy way of voting, but in most cases, it is the only concrete clue that you may have to the general way these characters think ..... and even then it's pretty much a crap-shoot.

*quote author=name of replier link=topic=108.msg41467#msg41467 date=1296091060] *quote author=embedded quoter link=topic=108.msg41428#msg41428 date=1296085214] Blah –blah, blah, blah blah blah [/quote* More blah – blah, blah, blah [/quote* Now you could add in your reply here. ----------------------------------------------------------- The part of the reply that I have shown struck-out, is what I would delete if I wanted to get rid of an embedded quote. Note that I have replaced the "[" and "]" with some *'s in a few places. This was just done for illustration purposes so that the forum software would not automatically hide the code and display these things as quotes. That is how I was able to display the code to show what gets deleted. Those brackets would have to be lined out as well. Yeah, I know ....... clear as mud ....lol. Doc

That's not a reference to a male sexual body part is it? ..... No, that's not spelled that way ..... lol. .......Just Kidding!!!!

Lol ..... this thread has taken a few strange turns here within the last couple of pages. Now we have generational warfare, and a battle of the major political parties. I think it is heading in a direction that I have heard all too much of over the years. It's probably not an area that I would like to get involved in. Politics ...... a subject that can get real unfriendly - real quick. I've got a feeling that this generational thing could probably get just as ugly...... ;D . Thread has taken a bad turn ..... time for me to leave......

This is not something new. When the concept was initially going to be put into business, there was a huge uproar. I am surprised that there are sportsmen and women who don't recall all that controversy that went on when this kind of activity first came to light. I believe that there were a whole pile of states that wrote laws outlawing the practice, but I don't think they all did. Anyway, the "anything goes" mentality has raised its ugly head once again. Those that complain about ethical discussions and that have said that "as long as it's legal. it's ok with me", should keep a picture of this rig taped above their computer for the next time those discussions come up again .

To eliminate the string of quotes and reduce it all to just the last actual reply, I manually delete quotes that aren't necessary. Also if I want to add quotes from other messages, I do that manually too by hitting the little "quote" icon in the reply toolbar then cut and paste the quote that I want to insert. It's all a bit messy and cumbersome, but I don't do it that often, so the work-around does work. That's the only way I have found to manage quotes. Doc

LOL .... No I am not a secret official of the NRA bent on covering up some deep dark secrets of the organization. I'm just a simple rank and file member who believes that I should support an organization that believes in the rights of private individuals to own firearms. Simply, I believe in putting my money (and support) where my mouth is. If you have questions pertaining to that organization, great. I would expect you to try to find out the answers to those questions. That's what I would do. It may turn out that you wind up with some flat out disagreements with some of their positions. Then you might want to balance those disagreements against what happens if we are completely disorganized and in a state of defensive chaos as our anti-gun friends would prefer. That's what I do. That's why I am still a member.

The interesting thing is that there is so much that can be done to the practicality of gun ownership and usage that can work around the 2nd amendment while leaving it completely intact. As one simple example, the amendment speaks of arms, but says nothing about the ammunition. It speaks of the right to bear arms, but does not speak about the harrassing regulations and restrictions and costs that can be levied or applied to such activities. There are no limitations expressed or implied about what arms, or the specific nature of those arms that we have a right to. I think you get the drift of what I am getting at. There are ways of making a right impractical to exercise. Many of those ways have already been used. Many more are being developed all the time.

Just a brief word about the notion that all members of any advocacy group must "agree with everything" that that group says. That is quite an unrealistic requirement that is destined to make all organized representation impossible. Nothing will please the anti gun factions more than to realize that the majority of gun owners demand such an impossible requirement. Because I assure you that they are not inhibited by such ridiculous notions.

What you are describing is an experience with the NRA that is considerably different from my considerable number of years of membership with them. I have gotten legislative alerts that are fully backed up with information about who, what, where, when, and why, on a fairly constant basis. Further, for those that are creatively challenged, there have been occasional sample letters, complete with names and addresses of the appropriate legislators. Also, their magazine includes all kinds of articles that will keep you up-to-date on the current anti-gun activities of those individuals and organizations that would disarm the public, as well as details of victories for the pro-gun forces. And yes, Wayne LaPierre is entitled to an occasional vacation, I would suppose..... lol. I do not demand that he completely stop having a life nor do I feel it is necessary. Frankly, I do not see where anyone could ask more for the relatively small amount of money for membership. Perhaps it is the notion of getting something for nothing that makes us believe that we should be entitled to reap the benefits of services of such organizations without financial support. But I do understand that there is no such thing as a free lunch. I guess I am just one of the suckers that actually pays his way for the maintenance of the rights that I believe in. I suppose it's also necessary for me to foot the bill for those that want the free ride also. It has to be recognized that the kinds of resources required to lobby legislators and to support legal challenges is substantial. It's hard to imagine it any other way. I don't know, it just seems kind of like the right thing to do to put my money where my mouth is. I have never been one much to accept the benefits of other's hard work without some form of compensation. I hate the thought of being a free-loader, so the small amount that is required for membership is really a bargain considering that they are exerting influence that I as an individual absolutely cannot. I'm glad that there is an organization that is dedicated to protecting gun owner's rights, because by gosh there are plenty of other well organized, well funded organizations that are diligently working the system to severely limit, or dissolve our ability to privately own guns and ammunition and enjoy shooting sports without undo harrassment. That notion is not a scare tactic created by the NRA, and in this era of information technology, shame on anyone who thinks that is the case.

Most of my scouting that is done directly for stand locations is done carefully in-season. That scouting is primarily done for bow hunting, and the results of that bowseason provides the intel for the gun season. So pre-bowseason and in-bowseason scouting are generally aimed at rut sign, feeding activity and locating currently used trails and timing patterns for stand placement. These pieces of info help to create a current picture of deer patterns. There is a second kind of scouting that goes on year-around. That is simply observations aimed at determining the size and content of the local herd. That is primarily for satisfaction of curiosity more than gathering any real useful hunting info for the upcoming season. Throughout the year, feed sources, cover, fawning and rutting behavior keep patterns in a constant state of change, and most of any non-fall info that I may discover is sure to change dramatically with the different phases of the rut, dropping of the leaves and the coming of mast crops, etc. So info gathered in the late winter and spring and early summer serve only to satisfy curiosity, and perhaps supply a bit of historical info about the past season (old scrapes, rubs, etc.).

Lol ....... Some of this sounds like rhetoric from the Brady bunch. It occurs to me that the biggest fear that the anti-gunners have is a strong gun ownership advocacy organization. It is definitely not in their best interest to have an organization like the NRA growing in membership. So I would expect them to work on hunters and other gun owners, trying desparately to discredit the organization and turn back as many perspective new members as possible. In order to make the most advances in removing firearms from private individuals, it would definitely be useful to prevent gunowners from organizing into one influential unit. I mention this only because after reading several replies on this thread, I don't believe there is anyone in the anti-gun community who is making as passionate an anti-NRA set of arguments as some of those replies that I have seen here. I've got to say that it does really make you wonder a bit just what the real motivations are.

I guess we just had our "January Thaw" ..... eh? Now it's time to get back to the business of winter. YICK!!!! Doc

I am saying that this thread is getting circular and redundant and is starting to bore the heck out of me. I'm getting weary of repeating myself. If that's what you like to do, by all means, carry on with it to your heart's content. I'm not trying to tell anybody what to do ..... lol. I'm just telling you what I'm going to do. If some new and interesting viewpoint comes up on the subject that strikes my interest, I may jump back in, but right now it seems like the old season re-runs. Is that being a "thread nazi" (whatever that is). :-\

One of the good points of this system is that there are no inputting tasks involved. The license tags are already issued via computer, so that's "in there". The harvests are inputted to the computer via computer, and inputted by the hunters (no DEC personel needed there), so that's "in there" for free. What is needed is some one-time, not too tricky, software writing to do the sorts, compile the lists of hunters that are non-compliant, and send out warnings or citations or whatever communications that are required, so there is a slight cost there. I see it all as a massive cost cutting activity, which is the kind of thing that the DEC is in bad need of these days. Remember the costs of the current system to achieve some rather dubious results. That is, sending DEC personel all over the countryside trying to amass license info from deer processors and other harvested deer collection places, collating all that input and then having someone manually input that into the computers. Then there is the computer work that develops the "reporting rate from all that and then applies that to the actual reports tallied up. All that activity and effort and expense eventually results in a harvest count. That's not cost effective.