Doc

Are there any opportunities to float hunt downstream from Letchworth, or are you likely violating trespass laws if you do that? I noticed that through that area, the current seems to be a lot more manageable and it looks like it runs through some prime farm country.

The physical efforts and hardships such as climbing mountains or walking in tough terrain, or suffering climate extremes etc., may be good measures of physical fitness, but not necessarily a requirement of a "true hunter". At least I don't couple those together. In fact some pretty darn good hunters eventually have to substitute hunting smarter for hunting harder and probably deserve some recognition for even having that option. My opinion of a true hunter is kind of an all around measure of woodsmanship and extensive useful knowledge of what he is supposed to be hunting. If he's in excellent physical shape, that may make his hunting easier, but to me, that is not a primary measure of a skilled hunter. I have never been on an African safari, but EVERY one that I have seen on TV (absolutely no exceptions), the guide managed the hunt, the trackers found the animals, the guide set up the shooting sticks and made the call on which animal to shoot, and all the hunter did was to follow instructions and stand where the guide told him and pulled the trigger (sometimes only after the guide explained to him where he had to hit the animal). And after he made the shot, the trackers took over and finished off the hunt. All of the things that the guide and the trackers did were the overwhelming majority of the elements of hunting. The hunter did the shooting, not the hunting. I will congratulate him on having gone on a hunt that I will never go on. I will admire whatever mounts and photos he comes home with. I will not downgrade his hunt. But, when we talk about "true hunters", he probably will not be the first one that comes to mind. To one extent or another, all guided hunts seem to have some elements of the hunting part taken over by the guide to one extent or another. In my book, those clients are not really allowed to participate in the many of the true elements of the hunt. They are paying someone to hunt for them so they can do the shooting. There is nothing wrong with that if that's what you want to do, and in many cases you may not even have a choice, but when you are looking for a way to define a "true hunter", in my opinion, you need to be looking at individuals who actually do all the elements of hunting. That's just a thing that has always been stuck in my mind, and I will be the first to admit that many likely do not view hunting the same way that I do. But anyway, that is the thinking behind my comments above. Doc

I have to admit that it is a strange situation. I'm still a bit old fashioned about such things and that arrangement doesn't really sit all that well with me. However, let's not dilute our focus on more important, critical, and relevant issues. I'm willing to temporarily cut him some slack if he surprises me with moves to the right. Given the challenges he has on his plate, he is going to be forced to shed some of his liberal idealogy. If he doesn't, then we will have some real and tangible items to hang out there. Right now I have no interest in drumming up sympathy for him by appearing to be nit-picking his romantic choices. I suspect that the public has had it's fill of those kinds of campaigns, and such comments may just create a back-lash.

That's what does it for me. That's why I became involved with hunting, trapping and fishing. Yes, I have strayed a long ways from the traditional equipment of those that went before us. But you know, I may have added a couple of yards onto my shooting distance, but even with all my fancy equipment, I still stay at 25 yards max bow distance, and not a whole lot more than 50 yards max when shooting with the shotgun. So the actual hunting skills haven't changed a whole lot. I guess if I have any equipment advantages over our predecessors, I sure don't use it. I really don't hunt a whole lot different than the indians or the pioneers. My stuff just looks fancier ..... ;D . I'm not impressed by those that make the longest shot, but rather those that can make the shortest. So yes, the motives and needs may have changed, but for me the methods really haven't. Of course I am not nearly as good at it as they were back then .... . For me the historical and cultural aspects of hunting do factor into my attitudes and values about what a true hunter is, not the guides, outfitters or select hunting areas that he can afford to create, buy, lease, or gain access to. I'll admit that I am probably in the minority on that kind of thinking, but when I saw the title of this topic, those are the things that kind of went through my head. That historical connection does factor deeply into the kinds of things that define a true hunter for me.

;D .... I don't know of any practical portage around the Middle Falls. That would be a bit of a harsh landing if you went over.

I know of people who have killed deer with 35# compounds. And back in the olden times, a 45# recurve was considered adequate to do the job. With the kinds of poundages we are talking, I doubt that either bow or crossbow would have a problem with enough energy at 100 yards. I'm sure we will be finding out because there's no doubt that some people will try it.

Frankly, I like your method of promoting the harvest of mature deer a whole lot better than just cranking out laws that require it. Also the soft-sell method works a whole lot better than the brow-beating method of trying to apply guilt or belittleing the accomplishments of others. People that start the fire and brimstone preaching generally create other hunters that simply dig in their heels and tune out on the entire thought of passing any deer. It's just human nature.

I think I had in mind one of these African safaris where the guide and his trackers locate the game for you, tell you what to shoot, when to shoot and even set up the shooting sticks for you ..... ha-ha. And then if the animal doesn't fall right on the spot, they do all the tracking. So how much of the "true hunting" does that client actually do? How about the New Zealand hunts for tar, chamois (sp?), red stag, fallow deer, etc. All occur with free range animals, but how much hunting do the clients actually do? Mountain goat hunts? ..... sheep hunts? ..... brown bear hunts? ...... Alaskan moose hunts? How about a fully guided and outfitted elk hunt? ....Not a whole lot different than that African safari. All these clients proudly display the mounts, but if those hunts were guided, how much true hunting was involved by the shooter. Are those guys "true hunters"? I think there are a lot of guides that might be the true hunters and they didn't even pull the trigger. Now let's consider one of those Texas "box-blind" hunts with the feeder just outside the camera view. Even without any fences, are those guys "true hunters"? This question of "true hunters" goes a lot farther than just fences. For the most part, this question about being a true hunter is probably a question that we shouldn't dwell on a whole lot. It really is a question that produces a lot more heat than it does unity. Except for the most extreme, offensive practices, it's probably best not to get involved with trying to decide who is the true hunter and who is not. No matter which way you move on that one, you are going to step on toes. Doc

I think that range changes a bit when you drop down the legs of the bi-pod and shoot prone or sitting with your back against a tree. It's not exactly bench rested, but it is awfully close. Maybe there's some reason why it's not as easy as it sounds, but I'll bet those bipods are not put on there just for decoration. Also, I don't see why there would be any problems with doing like I do with my shotgun. I simply provide horizontal gun rests in my ground blinds Works good with the shotgun, and I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work with a crossbow.

Lol .... So now we have a pretty good idea of what is true hunting and what isn't ...... or do we? How about guided hunts? Guys that go on those hunts where the guide does all the actual "hunting" and they just do the shooting ...... are they "real hunters"? There is a lot of game and locations where a guide is not a choice. You either use a guide or you don't hunt. Does that kind of a hunt disqualify you from being a "true hunter"? I never have and never will go on a hunt that requires a guide even though for some species, it is the only practical way to go. And that is simply because of some crazy notion that I personally have concocted about being as totally responsible for the success or failure of my hunt as I possibly can. That to me is part of being a true hunter. I think I am probably in the minority on that, but that is my personal impression of what hunting is all about for me. However, I won't be telling you whether or not a guide is ok for you. You'll have to figure that out for yourself. We probably should not be telling other people about how hunting behind a fence is real hunting or not either. That's their choice isn't it? But, don't get me started on canned hunts .... ;D ;D ;D

I still look at those who willingly go afield during hunting season without blaze orange as people that don't value their lives, or the future welfare of their dependents very highly. In terms of minors, if they are not instructed properly about the importance of blaze orange, then there is an adult somewhere who has dropped the ball and who has terribly misjudged the maturity and the level of supervision of that minor that they have put in that position. I hope all you people are not disputing the effectiveness of blaze orange as a safety measure in a deer gun season. There is documentation back several pages in this thread that points out the ratio of NYS hunting mishaps that involve b/o versus those without. It is overwhelmingly convincing. Is it a cure-all? ...... not hardly and no one has ever claimed that it is. Does that mean that it shouldn't be used? ..... I hope no one here is foolish enough to believe that. On the other hand, when viewing the stats on the number of hunting incidents that involve hunters not wearing b/o, maybe one should expect that we might have a few in our membership as well. Whether you think it should be a law or not is an individual decision. But I'm getting the impression that there are some here that think that wearing b/o is not an appropriate safety measure. For those individuals, I hope you never find out just how terribly wrong you are.

Without a guarantee of anonymity, they needn't expect any calls from me. I don't need a barn or house burned down over some illegal deer.

Speaking of accidently shooting someone, if you want something that will send cold chills down your back, watch some of these hunting shows on TV that show some of these African hunts. They very often display some of the sloppiest gun handling practices that I have ever seen. I just love that way of resting the rifle horizontally on their shoulder while holding onto the barrel, which is generally pointed straight at the back of the guide in front of them. I've never figured out who decided that that was a good way of carrying a gun, but for some reason, as soon as these guys get over to Africa, all notions of being aware of where that loaded gun is pointed, go flying out the window.

No ice here at the moment.

Lol ..... Don't you just love it when someone comes on a hunting forum and just spends all their time continuously dumping on hunters. Heck, if I wanted to see that sort of thing I would go to one of the animal rights forums.

Jim was the one who answered the phone the other night. My guess is that he is still the secretary.

There has to be something very chilling to an intruder in the middle of the night that hears that sound of a 12 guage pump being racked. There's a pretty good chance that the very next sound would be the intruder running for his life without a single shot being fired. Handgun? ...... Don't own one. For me it just isn't the ideal self defense weapon.

That's a pretty good solution. If I was getting bunches of them, I would skin, stretch and sell them myself. Unfortunately that's not the way my luck has been running....lol. I know a few people that most likely know some local trappers. I really don't like just throwing them away, and giving them to a trapper is just the right solution. Thanx

The sad thing is that we can expect funding for wildlife law enforcement to go in exactly the other direction. I agree this is becoming more and more of a problem. Any poacher or potential poacher is well aware that everything is pretty much in his favor already. They know how ridiculously stretched out our COs are. I think that added taxes are not the answer because the politicians steal those kinds of funds quicker than they can be generated. One thing that possibly could help out is the involvement of hunters in tipping off the authorities when they find out about violations. Other than that we are likely going to continue to see these characters stealing our resources and that kind of activitity is likely to increase. Doc

What is he going to do with it? I think a lot of guys don't get involved with predator hunting because they don't have an idea what to do with the critters after they get them. I have a substantial trapping background so if I were to get enough of them to warrant a trip to the local fur auction I would know what to do with a few of them. But I have to admit that if I get just one fox or one coyote, I may be a bit challenged to figure out a proper way to use the resource. I do want to try my hand at tanning a coyote or fox again. But once I have done it, I'll be looking for suggestions as to what to do with 1 fox or 1 coyote. I do have difficulty in just leaving them in the woods to rot. For me, it does pose a problem. I'll bet a lot of guys have the same problem. Doc

Unlike us sitting at our computers, the DEC is in a position where it must not only manage the deer, but it has to manage the hunters. Their most important tool that has no replacement yet in managing populations, is the hunter. Their whole existance involves a balancing act between managing the herd and maintaining their hunter base so they can manage the herd. I honestly believe it is that reality that explains their current position on AR.

Yeah, that's kind of where I am too. I see no reason to scramble seasons. Maybe something could be improved, but just coming up with something different is not the same as coming up with something better.

The system I have the most confidence in is to visit a local pro-shop and let him measure your draw length while you are actually under the stress of pulling a bow to your chosen anchor. Also, if you are planning on using a string loop, and release that should be accomodated too. Draw length is an important bow spec and I wouldn't try to short-cut that determination. When you're spending that kind of money, it's important to get it right. Yes there is a certain amount of adjustability on most bows, but you don't want to start right off by using up all the adjustment just because you were not precise enough to start with. If you have to pay the shop owner for his time (and if you are not buying anything from him, that would be the right thing to do), it is money well spent. Doc

Could be that it is just a reactionary system that issues or denies permits only after the state of the herd is so extreme that it is obvious to anyone who steps out into the woods. Then adjust permit numbers accordingly. Set the permit numbers at a certain level until the hunters scream or the farmers scream and then react by changing permit numbers in the appropriate direction. And then perhaps we have this statistical system to simply make it look like they are doing something.....lol. No, that is just a little too conspiratorial even for me ..... ha-ha Doc

I don't know about little bucks be-deviling big bucks, but the whole discussion brings to mind the fact that fighting and other rut behavior is mighty tough on the bucks. I have read that a lot of the bucks head into winter in worse shape than some of the fawns because of the stress of buck rut behavior and the loss of winter fat reserves. I have seen what would have been a nice 8 point with every tine busted on the right side antler. I think that would have been quite a fight to see. The buck that I shot this year had some vicious looking deep wounds around the neck and hip that I have come to believe are severe antler punctures. I think these fighting related wounds led to something quite a bit more traumatic happening on the ass-end (probably from predators). Shooting this deer amounted to a mercy killing. So some of these battles can have some significant impacts on how they begin the hardships of winter. I have also seen bucks (young and old) after gun season that really looked quite thin (ribby), with the whole worst part of the winter before them. So I have to believe that an excessive density of bucks most likely complicates their existance and may very well send them into winter in a severely compromised condition. Couple that with a severe winter or one that lingers on excessively in the spring, and all that activity could mean the difference between life and death for some of those bucks. I'm not sure how that all relates to the current part of this discussion, but certainly the stress of rut related behavior is not something to belittle.