Doc

Bub is not short for Bubba is it???

I'm a little confused..... Does this farmer/landowner have some huge fence around his property that keeps the deer from exiting as soon as this huge army of hunter invitees crowd into there? My experience with that kind of sudden massive pressure is that the deer temporarily move on out ...... something that should make the surrounding hunters on neighboring lands real happy. What am I missing here? I guess I don't really buy the "deer are eradicated" story.

So, can I assume that you live a life of breaking as many of these kinds of laws as possible to show your independence? Do you hunt without a license. Do you kill whatever and however many of whatever you hunt just to show the government that they don't have control over you? Just how far do you actually carry this line of reasoning? Doc

I saw something today that made me come back and open this old thread on deer intelligence back up. Once gun season opened, all deer sightings in my front yard ceased (surprise....surprise). Throughout the entire season, no tracks, no sightings, no indication that any deer had any interest in crossing my yard or getting anywhere near it. So today, 3 days after the last day of regular season, I went out town this morning and in the snow was a fresh, walking, deer track that because of the new snow this morning, had to have been in broad daylight. However, they weren't done with me yet. I just looked out and there was another set of walking deer tracks crossing the yard, even more fresh than the other ones. Now, I want to know who has been leaking the season dates to the local deer herd. These "dumb animals" seem to know exactly when everything is safe and when it's not. Some day I'm going to really mess with them and go out and buy a muzzleloader. Then we'll see just who has the last laugh. Doc

I will re-state what I said on the other related thread: "It all boils down to the fact that hunter safety really is an individual state of mind. You can teach the fundamentals of safety, but there will always be a certain number of people who feel they know better, and that such things can never happen to them. They will laugh at your suggestions of safety. They will go out of their way to prove that hunting mishaps only happen to the other guy and that they needn't worry about such things themselves. I guess that's just human nature and you can't teach, cajole, or persuade "human nature"." Hunter safety education works on those that would probably be safe anyway. Those that have already decided that safety is inconvenient and meant for "other people" will not pay anymore attention to the instructor regardless of how many times you repeat the lesson.

All in good time. I got along a good many years without trail cameras. My interest in them now is really only involving my own curiosity. I can't say that they really aid my hunting at all. It's more a case of satisfying my curiosity about what is out there and what is going on when I'm not out there. So, I would hardly call them a required piece of equipment. The prices keep coming down so perhaps soon they won't be so far out of reach for you. Also, you may want to post something on this forum asking about used cams. I'm sure a lot of guys change their minds about what they actually want once they actually start usingthem. They just might consider unloading some used ones at a much lower price. Doc

That was one of the requirements when I bought my cameras and will continue to be a requirement for any future ones. I only will buy the infra-red versions. Yes, the night pictures are not exactly the most artsy looking photographs but they tell me what I want to know without scaring the devil out of the deer. I noticed on a lot of trail-cam pictures with the flash, a lot of the deer definitely took notice of the camera and in some cases you could see that they were alarmed. That's not what I want to do to the deer that I will potentially be hunting. The infra-red Primos and Bushnell pictures show no indication that the deer even knew anything had happened. That's the way I want to keep it.

Yeah but that back-tag gets so darned heavy to carry around all day. Not only that, but I had to poke two holes in my coat to hang the darn thing. I think it's time we all stood up and protested this evil invasion of the civil rights of hunters. We must rise up and cast off this yoke of oppression. I suggest a day in Albany where we each can burn our back-tags in protest on the steps of the capitol. > Doc

The following link goes to a DEC page that talks about Hi-Tor, complete with maps: http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/24439.html By the way, I am surprised to see it referred to as High Tor. I have lived in the area all my life and it has always been called Hi Tor. I have no idea when they changed the name. Doc

How in the heck can anyone aim at the vitals if they can't even see that it's not even a deer? Just throw some lead in the general direction and hope something goes down??? Well, something went down all right! There are some crazy people out there. That's why I'm so adamant about the use of blaze orange and other items and actions of safety. It's obvious that there are some people out there that have gone through hunter safety training and it all went in one ear and out the other. I do what I can to protect myself from them. And then this creep has the nerve to say, "accidents happen"? That's kind of like shrugging the whole thing off as something that was unavoidable. This deal was not unavoidable in any sense. Those kind of people are scattered out there among us. To me that makes it super-important to hunt defensively. It really makes me think that some amount of jail time should result whenever some of these crazy shootings take place. That kind of disregard for human life needs punishments that serve as examples to others that are beginning to develop these kinds of reckless attitudes toward where they are flinging lead.

I have seen fresh rubs late in the season before, with shreds of bark laying on top of the snow along with the tracks. So it doesn't surprise me that others have seen the same thing. However, the only exciting thing about that is that it's kind of an indicator that a buck made it that far into the season and might still be around. A rub does not mean that that buck will ever return. As I have seen it explained in magazine articles and a couple of TV programs, and verified with personal observation, A rub can sometimes tell you some things about a deer's size, possibly the direction it might have been heading, and very little else. What you do know is that a buck has been there but there is no indication he'll ever be there again.

Well, I'm not sure what part of the state you are talking about, but most or maybe all of those "deer jacking" shots during bow season, if they are happening during daylight hours, would be small-game hunters here in the southern zone. As to the apparent practice shots during deer gun season I have always assumed to be somebody that missed a shot or seriously banged their rifle/shotgun and wanted to re-check their scope or something. I'm sure the "500 rounds" is most likely a bit of an exaggeration unless you are hunting next to a gun club shooting range.... lol. But every year I do hear shooting patterns that are definitely target work. The only thing that goes through my mind is that I am glad it's not me because I figure that's usually a sign of somebody who has had some sort of bad thing happen.

I'm quite sure that there is some pretty heavy political pressure on this issue as well. Unlike hunters, farmers are very well organized and always have the ear of the politicians. One way or another the DEC is going to act to satisfy political pressures or be forced to stand back and let the legislators dictate actions to be taken.

I think somebody said 80# deer and it got mis-interpreted as 18#.

I'm not sure I want the DEC coming on to my property and mandating how many people I can invite to hunt there. First of all, I am sure that they do not have the manpower to inspect each parcel to make that determination in an over-all statewide manner. So that kind of micro managing of hunter density is never going to happen. As far as nuisance permits, if the system is working properly, none should be issued to land parcels that have the near zero deer levels that those neighboring hunters are claiming. If the system isn't functioning properly then that's a whole different subject. Actually, if some of these farmers want to open their property to hunters, I see that as a good thing. Also, I really can't see that as being any different than the conditions you could expect to see on public land. What I have found is that when hunters begin to get too efficient at thinning the herd, there automatically occurs a re-distribution of hunters to other areas. I've seen it happen. It's kind of self-regulating. Doc

All I use are plain old nasty 12 guage Winchester slugs. generally speaking I find the deer right where I saw them when I shot. My old Ithaca groups them pretty good too when I run my annual pre-season scope/gun check. I can't recommend them as being any better than anything else because I have not really done a lot of experimentation with different kinds of slugs. Winchester is pretty much what I started with. They always did the job and I just stayed with them. I'm sort of hoping that by next year here in Ontario county we will be talking about what caliber and load of deer rifle I should be using instead of shotgun slugs ..... lol.

No really, when I said I don't think there is much point in trying to hold any further conversations with you on this, I meant it. Doc

We have a ravine that is about 200' deep with some very steep shale walls. Basically, unless you are familiar with rock-climbing equipment, you are not going down there. It is further boxed in with two waterfalls. The bottom one is 90' (straight down no way around) the upper one is about 30' - 40' (almost straight up). If a deer goes over the edge, it's just plain gone. I remember shooting a doe that I thought was far enough away from the edge, but didn't realize that when they are on a pretty good slope they can slide real nice on snow even after they are dead. No, she didn't make it to the edge, but only because I was pretty darn quick getting down there. But steve863's comment kind of reminded me of this area and that particular incident. It could have been ugly. However, I do know that even with the best intentions, it is possible to have a deer wind up in an unretrievable location.

Here's the problem with those kinds of decisions. In our area the weatherman on all 4 local stations plus the weather station were saying the same thing. Guess what ...... They were wrong. I don't hunt where the weathermen are forecasting ..... lol. The day featured a very, very light drizzle for part of it and no wind at all. Hey, I do the same thing. I listen to all the nifty scientific meteorologic jargon and kind of believe what they are saying (like a fool) and plan my hunting accordingly. I generally wind up cursing those guys out too. It's probably always a good idea to have alternate plans in case they blow it. Flopped on the couch may or may not be a good alternative ;D

You're right. Of course we all focus on hunting lawbreakers and ethically-challenged (lol... I just made that one up) since this is a hunting forum, but your point is absolutely correct. We like to beat ourselves up as having the only slobs and lowlifes in society but of course we are only representative of our own percentage of society in general. If hunters seem to be getting more selfish and self-centered in our attitudes it is only because we represent a certain percentage of a society that is doing exactly the same.

I do apologize. My mistake. Of course a .17 caliber is a rimfire. I must have had a brain-cramp It happens every so often. :-[ Doc

What can you say about an incident like this that hasn't been said everytime another shooting takes place. The saddest part about all of this is that I am no longer surprised or shocked. It has happened way too many times for that kind of reaction. Every year we wait for the news reports of who shot who. We shake our heads and we curse and swear at the ignorance and recklessness, and we try to express the proper level of outrage. And yet we all know that the next year, no matter what we finally manage to say, there will be a new list with new victims. It all boils down to the fact that hunter safety really is an individual state of mind. You can teach the fundamentals of safety, but there will always be a certain number of people who feel they know better, and that such things can never happen to them. They will laugh at your suggestions of safety. They will go out of their way to prove that hunting mishaps only happen to the other guy and that they needn't worry about such things themselves. I guess that's just human nature and you can't teach, cajole, or persuade "human nature". Doc

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Of course, that's exactly what I have been trying to do on several occasions, only to be met with obfuscations that are nothing but baseless accusations of spinning and twisting words, and quite frankly I don't think there is much point in trying to hold any further conversations with you on this. My only hope is that there are not too many people who share your flawed logic about trying to cover the perceived and exaggerated shortcomings of bows by introducing more stuff into bow season. I know you insist that somehow that logic magically stops at crossbows, but quite frankly you know as well as I do that for many people who are eager to force access into bowseasons, that it does not.

Trying to determine ownership of the deer based on "first killing shot" can get into all kinds of complications. Obviously if the deer is on it's feet hours after it is first shot, It's going to take some kind of forensic study to determine how "lethal" that first shot was. I have never had an issue with this because in my mind if some guy is blood trailing the deer, I have no problem with putting the thing down and handing the deer over to him. I don't know whether that is right or wrong .... legally or morally required or not, but to me it just feels like the right thing to do.