Doc

Let me try it for a third time. And this time I will try to use your exact words since you seem to be trying to forget them already: "Id rather see those guys that dont have time to practice with a vertical bow, pick up a crossbow and have the ability to make an accurate shot on a deer rather than injure a deer due to lack of practice." Please point out any references to archery equipment in that post. You don't seem to see how easily the word gun could be substituted for crossbow. The fact is that same line of reasoning would apply whether you were trying to cram a crossbow or a muzzleloader or a shotgun or a rifle into the bowseason. And just because you now come back and say "oh no I only meant crossbows" doesn't change the way that same line of logic could be expanded to include almost any weapon. See, when someone lays out a statement like that, I tend to hold them to the letter of their words. I don't want to hear any of this attempted fancy footwork afterwards about what is archery equipment and blah ... blah. If you think that deer hunting weapons should be changed to minimize the need for practice, fine. Just say so. But don't complain when someone points out that your comments really can go way beyond what you claim they meant.

What's that saying? ..... the definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing over and over and expecting different results (or something like that). I agree. anyone who thinks there is only one way to hunt, doesn't really understand hunting. After the initial shock to the deer herd when they have gone into the invisible mode, I get this cartoonish type thought of a hunter dozing in his tree stand and 100 yards over in the bushes just out of sight is a deer dozing also throughout the entire day. Neither one of them knowing the other is there. Not really too productive for the hunter. Doc

I think a lot has changed over the years in terms of warm clothing that allows people to sit like a lump for hours in the cold. They have also been conditioned by TV and magazines to believe that it takes a treestand to consistantly kill a deer. To me that isn't a great formula to having a lot of deer movement. Even when I'm stillhunting, I like to see deer on their feet. And sitting hunters will not make that happen. However, I am not one to downplay the sitting style of hunting. I firmly believe it is the wise hunter that knows how and when to use all the tactics. You want to walk.....walk. You want to sit ..... sit. Whatever works for you, that's what you should do. And I don't consider either technique to be the only real true hunting. They are both valid deer hunting techniques. One stresses patience and will-power, the other stresses stealth. Given the right circumstances either one will produce deer. And to stray even farther off topic ..... lol, I will say that back in the late 50's when I first started, it didn't take guys very long in the morning before they started walking (they had to ... lol), and we all made a much smaller herd seem like there were deer everywhere by keeping them moving all day long. That's why a lot of us can remember the very active and exciting deer hunting of years ago. We didn't have more deer, we just saw more deer. Doc

Sounds like changing a string has entered the category of something you might want to call around for and do a bit of comparison pricing. Back in the "olden days" , I used to make my own strings and change them myself. It was all a pretty simple thing to do and cost pretty close to nothing. Today the strings are way longer than my string-jig can accomodate, and you need a bow press to put them on. Doc

I have mixed feelings about proficiency testing. There may actually be some value in it if only to prove that at one point in time, the licensed bowhunter (or gun hunter) had some skills. However, unless you make it a periodic test and re-test, I'm not sure just what it shows about a hunter's current skills. The other thing that makes me a bit skeptical is the fact (ok, my personal suspicion) that wounding losses occur more from poor shot selection than marksmanship. How do you test for a particular judgement call that will occur sometime in the future under the excitement of an actual hunting condition? Basically, marksmanship also is impacted differently in target situations vs. hunting conditions. Of course, we all know the guy who is a tournament ace, and can perform all kinds of amazing target feats but who also has a long record of misses and wounds. I might also add that I have seen some others that can't hit a target no matter what size or distance, but are deadly on wild game. This is a trait with some (many?) instinctive traditional bowhunters. Proficiency testing is not a concept that I would throw out without a whole lot of discussion and thought, but I do believe that there are many more different issues involved than come to mind at first glance. Just a parting thought to keep in mind: All those flaming idiots that you encounter (and try to avoid) daily on the road passed a fairly rigorous driving proficiency test ..... Doc

And a gun would be higher yet .... eh? Look, I'm not trying to put any twist on anything. I'm only interpreting your remarks the way any reasonable person would have to. There is nothing about that prior comment that you made (or this response either for that matter) that doesn't pertain to guns even more-so than crossbows. So either you believe in what you are saying or you don't. Which is it? Do you believe in it just a "little bit" but only up to the inclusion of crossbows? I think everybody understood back when bowhunting was first legalized that adding challenge to a deer season by using primitive equipment had some risks of wounding losses. That risk still exists today. If we want to eliminate the risk, we must eliminate the special season and the weapons in it. Your idea of including more and more technologically advanced weapons until you no longer have to see "deer run through the woods with an arrow hanging out of its back or hindquarter" can only lead to one end. That end is a goal shared by others ever since the bow season was created. You can't expect to raise that point and not have someone point out that you have conveniently but artificially stopped short in your argument. Doc

Whoa there buddy ..... calm down. There's only one thing you are convincing others of, and it doesn't have anything to do with AR.....lol.

Do you have any idea where that line of reasoning could lead us? What are you saying, that because there are hunters that do not take the time to become proficient with their hunting weapon that we should keep adding various weapons into bow season until they finally find one that can be shot without practice? Look if you really believe in that then what is the point of having a bow season at all. Just make guns the only legal deer harvesting implement. That's about as close to a "point and shoot" weapon that you can get.

Lol ..... I've heard of that problem too. Spotlights sweeping across the bedroom walls : . Not exactly something a homeowner should have to put up with eh?

Ah yes.... the good ol' N-S-E-W wind. I know it well. I hunt in hill country with lots of deep ravines and uneven formations. The wind never seems to know exactly which way to blow other than on my back. I can walk a complete huge circle and have the wind directly on my back all the way. At least I know that in one direction, the weatherman will have gotten it right. Opening day I sat on a west face of a hill with a predicted west wind. so the wind should have been blowing uphill, and not to any deer being moved up the hill. .....Yeah, right. I spent the morning watching the wind take turns blowing up, down, and sideways, never really showing any preference. The same gust would blow in one direction and then without even slowing down or hesitating whip right around 180 degrees and blow the exact opposite. Doc

Yup, but when that point in time is after legal shooting hours, that doesn't do you much good....

Yeah I just noticed that. In that case, that's some pretty darn slow reporting ...... . ;D

Probably nearly unheard-of. I would guess that most of the bears taken are strictly a result of an accidental encounter.

That's too bad ...... Another year and that deer would have been mature and ready to harvest. Just another victim of the "brown & downers"

I'm tagged out, or I would be in the same dillemma as you. I don't like being cold, and I have never tried to turn hunting into a physical endurance contest. The older I get the more I think that way. However, there are things today that can help with the comfort aspect of hunting. With the wind being a major problem, a pop-up blind comes to mind (heater not out of the question). The other good thing is that unlike bow season, you are not limited as to how much clothing you can pile on. As long as you can bend your arms enough to shoulder the gun, you can shoot. No follow-through, no anchor, no arm alignment, no grip consistancy, no back tension, or any of that other hogwash that bowhunting requires.... lol. Just pick up the gun and shoot and that you can do no matter how much clothing you have on. heck you can crawl inside a sleeping bag and do that .... ;D . Take along a good portable radio for entertainment (nothing to hear anyway with the wind and the snow hiding all sound). What the hell.....have a party! Some stupid deer just might wander by. No, seriously, I hear exactly what you are saying. After weeks of hunting (bow and gun), and then gun season finally sliding into that inevitable dead quiet time, the frustration level gets to be serious and it really gets you wondering why you should subject yourself to ridiculous discomfort when you are pretty well convinced that it will all be for nothing. I've been there. And I have cut a lot of seasons a bit short when that happens. I wish I could tell you about the times when I've just sucked it up and went out and was rewarded by some huge mega-buck .... But unfortunately as you might have guessed, that has never happened and would be one whopper of a lie ....lol. Look, hunting is recreation. It's supposed to be fun. You have to do whatever keeps the activity satisfying those two things. There is no reason to be beating yourself up or feeling guilty if you have put in a good hard effort during the season and now decide enough is enough. There's nothing wrong with ending the season when you want to end it instead of waiting for someone to tell you to end it. Doc

I've never hunted "bow only" areas, so I'm not sure how the deer react. However, I don't believe that the change in deer behavior when the gun season opens is completely due to guns. I've seen deer go into the invisible mode even in areas where no shots were fired. In fact, I swear that some of that defense can begin during bow season with as light a footprint as the typical bowhunter leaves on an area. I have some state land nearby that I hunt that is heavily pressured through the entire spring, summer, and fall by hikers and mountain bikers. In those areas where they have built and used trails, it is almost a waste of time to expect to see any deer during daylight hours even weeks after the hikers and bikers stop using it. So, if large amounts of hunters enter the woods, even during bow season, I wouldn't be real surprised if the deer went into the "invisible mode" there too. I do believe that bowhunters can over-pressure deer, and I do believe the deer will react by altering their habits and patterns and beginning to think defense. I think it all relates to hunter (or human) density and activity, and I don't think it takes that dense a hunter intrusion to put the entire herd on alert for a fairly long time. It's a subject that I wish we understood better. But, I don't know if anyone has gone out of their way to officially study deer reactions to various kinds of pressure in any sort of scientific fashion. My comments are based only on what I have personally observed in the relatively small area that I hunt and have wandered around in since I was a kid. These observations bear no resemblance to any sort of credible scientific study. Doc

I don't understand what it is with people who feel they must "tame" wildlife. It always is a story that has a rather bad ending one way or the other. Imagine if you were the proud hunter who killed that trophy. He will forever be the butt of jokes about killing Yogi Bear. Fair enough if he knew the bear was tame, but if he didn't, imagine how he felt when he found out.

Absolutely true... the structure of the pack acually keeps things balanced.. take out the alfa male and female and thats when the $hi+ starts happening Well, I am still having a problem with a theory that says that killing coyotes makes more coyotes. Perhaps there is something to the "pack dynamics" theory ...... perhaps. However, that assumes that all coyotes travel in an organized packs. That's abolutely not the case in our area at least. Coyotes around here actually occur as singles or doubles (thankfully). So if I shoot one or two, that generally means that there are one or two less. It's hard to imagine that shooting those one or two causes all the coyotes throughout the area to breed more to make up for the loss....lol. I would really like to read this phantom "study" some day and really understand exactly what they are actually trying to say. For all I know this may be some paper written up by the animal rights wackos to remove credibility of the population control reasons for hunting them.

This is all absolutely true. There are so many cultural changes that have occurred that impact opportunities and attitudes toward hunting. Every year more hunters get on the fence as to whether they will continue hunting or not. That's why we don't need to be providing new excuses for them not to hunt. Sometimes it doesn't take a lot to provide that little shove that sends them right out of hunting forever. Most of us have a hard time imagining that because hunting has been an important part of our lives for so long. However, there are a lot of hunters who have never had that thorough indoctrination. I see the growing lack of dedication and enthusiasm just in the way most people hunt. If you think about it, you can see where it really wouldn't take a whole lot to convince people in this category that they should take up some other recreation..... and they are doing exactly that every year. It's all a lot more complex a subject than most of us realize, and all the contributors to the problem are not necessarily just the big and obvious reasons. Doc

That's hard to say. Will the deer immediately forget about all the hunters that were wandering through their woods for the past bunch of weeks and resume their daytime pursuit of food? Probably not for a while, but eventually they do. Then too, I remember a couple of years ago when the deer were in my front yard in broad daylight, munching on some bushes on exactly the day after gun season closed, which would have still been muzzleloader/bow season. That was another year when the season was so quiet that the deer hardly even knew there had been a gun season going on ..... lol. I don't think that anyone can really say just how long the deer will hang onto their defensive gun-season tactics. I would think that the more hunter activity you have had, the longer it would take the deer to calm back down.

Yes that sounds something like number that I have heard. That actually sounds like a number that could be mathmatically arrived at and probably has some credibility. The question is just how many coyotes would humans have to harvest in conjunction with natural deaths to reach that 75% and stabilize or even decrease the population.

That's another view of coyotes that you don't hear very often, but she's right as far as her reasoning went. Predators do have their place. But I have to say that if we don't step in and act as a bit of a predator for them, then we do have to live with the consequences of having a species that has absolutely no natural enemies. When that is the case, then we have wildly swinging cycles that impact the species that they prey on. One of those species may very well be the deer. Also as uncontrolled coyote populations occur, the only control that will take effect is the various canine diseases. Some of which can spread to domestic animals and other carnivores.

That's what the deer do every year. That's why traditionally the overwhelming majority of deer are taken on opening day. The fact that after opening day (opening morning actually) they hunker down and have to be kicked in the butt to get them moving is nothing new. And they don't have to be shot at to go into this "hunkered down" mode. It's just what deer do as a defense when they feel their woods is being invaded. It's also one of the main reasons why so many hunters begin to claim that all the deer have been exterminated... . Doc

Lets wait to see what the license sales were this year. in any event,the DEC will invent some new machinations to pique hunter interests in the future. I think that old well is getting a bit dry. I know they are trying all kinds of gimmicks to get hunter numbers to reverse. Some even have some temporary success, but the over-all trend still winds up downward. I think those actions that tend to frustrate hunters are destined to accelerate our downward trend. I firmly believe that the license fee fiasco will eventually lead to more hunters dropping out or not starting hunting to begin with. I feel just as strong that enacting any of a number of restrictions that have been talked about on this forum could have similar effects.

What you described is the deer's number one defense. Once they detect the hunter invasion (and it doesn't have to mean being shot at), they figure out that it is much safer to hunker down and stay put and just let hunters walk on by. Also, I have seen situations where you almost have to kick them in the butt to get them to move. I remember one buck that I got a few years back that thought he was pulling off this "sitting tight" defense technique just perfectly. At 30 yards he was kind of hunkered into a grape vine and brush tangle. What he didn't take into consideration was that we had just had the first snow of the year ..... ;D . He thought that just like all the other times that he just laid there and let hunters just walk past, it would work just nicely one more time. It probably would have except apparently he didn't realize how totally silhouetted he was against the snow. Not a real swift thing on that particular day, but he did tip me off to how these deer appear to be swallowed up. Since that time, I have learned the proper use of binoculars in examining every square inch of what is ahead of me as I move into the wind at a painfully slow pace. An antler tine, that distinctive pattern of a deer muzzle, the outline of a tail, an ear, they are always visible to a hunter who is moving slow enough and constantly scanning every lump and bump that's out in front of him. Of course those that simply hunker down at the base of a tree and sit all day will swear that there isn't a deer in the woods. My gun season stands are used only on opening day or any other major hunting day when I expect hunters and deer to be moving. My gun hunting philosophy is to do exactly the opposite of what I expect most of the other hunters will be doing. If they are walking (or driving), I sit. If they are sitting I walk. Doc