Doc

I can't do it. The logic is too intermeshed with my own personal entries, and things seem to blow up when I start clearing out my data. Sorry, I gave it a heck of a try, but nothing useful came out of it. Doc

That's all fun stuff to read, but I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in the actual accuracy of such numbers. Actually I can't imagine why anyone would be interested in "statewide" numbers anyway. What effects hunters is a whole lot more local than that.

So when you get a deer at the bottom of the gorge, how do you get them back up to the top where the car is?

That is actually the best idea you've come up with yet!!... and it still stinks ;D Yeah, the whole thing kind of satisfies everything that everyone is trying to do with these off-the-wall deer management schemes. I think it fits well with all the hack-job ideas regarding gun seasons. Best of all, it winds up taking opportunities away from hunters which is the common thread that runs through all these proposed deer management plans. I figured it had to be a winner on this thread. ;D

Joe, The DEC has no clear estimate as to how many deer inhabit the state. FYI, google deer in Greenich CT where an INFRARED flyover was performed some time ago. It is eyeopening and was expensive! Eye-opening? ..... definitely! Expensive? .... yes, if the entire state were done every year. However, to do it once each decade, and only a representative amount of area, just to verify the statistical results of those areas, might actually be a bargain in terms of developing a reliable, credible, and proveable statistical management procedure. I would sooner see that than simply applying the same statistics decade after decade with each year's errors compounding with each successive year and never knowing if all that data gathering, inputting and massaging was giving you a dime's worth of reliability. As far as I know, such a reliable verification activity has never been done in NYS. PA did it and now you tell me that CT did it. I would say that that automatically gives those states a leg up in terms of credibility and reliability. That has to be worth something. And if we ever get this state financially righted again, I would support the same kind of periodic activity here in NYS.

There's the answer. Forget about AR and all that other complicated crap. Just stop shooting deer, and you will have all the monster trophies you can look at ..... ;D . By the way, since everybody else has developed or passed on their own theories of deer management, I think it is only fair that I treat you all to my scheme to populate the state with ancient, sway-backed, toothless, monstrous bucks that can hardly hold their heads up from the weight of their antlers. This is brilliant! It also kind of relates back to the original post so it's almost on topic. Judging from some of the other plans I've seen here, I am surprised nobody has beat me to it. About the only thing that hasn't been suggested so far is a management scheme that allows buck harvests only every other year or so. How about that one? That gets a bunch of deer past the 1.5 age, creates an older strata of bucks, helps balance the gender ratio, blah .... blah .... and so on and so forth and all those other neat buzz-words. By golly before long, we would have those out-of-state hunters begging to come into the state and hunt our monstrous bucks. Every other year doesn't cut it? .... make it every 3rd year. And then we can make buck season separate and keep it down to a 2 day hunt. We could actually expand the doe season. Before you know it there would be a "booner" behind every tree. To satisfy the reduced opportunities for the bowhunters and gunners, we'll just jam a crossbow in their hands and maybe increase the antlerless permits and they will never know the difference. Everybody's happy .... right? By the way, let's hope we don't hear anybody say, "by golly that's a heck of a good idea!". ;D Doc

No, this is a test of originality, and creativity. I wouldn't want to stifle some of the marvelous work being done on this thread. Actually that is probably some of the more realistic posting that will actually appear on this thread. ;D

You sure got that right. Something used to keep me warm that costs $600, had better baseboard heating or something. You can't be serious.

Wow, this thread has gone berserk! ??? It seems to cover just about everything except the original notion of shortening the gun season. I think we have hit just about every hot-button issue and jammed them into this thread. We even have a new one that I have never heard before. It seems we are having a civil war about to break out between the north and the south in NYS. ;D Where the heck that came from, I don't know. I think I hear bits and pieces of the Battle Hymn of the Republic in the background. No..... Maybe that's Dixie. This is a good thread, we got a smattering of AR, and a little crossbow action, and just about everyone's favorite deer management scheme represented here. Now a little soil analysis. We also have some prize insults (I've been taking notes). This one has potential for beating the antler restriction thread for number of pages....lol. Now if we could only keep all that crap bottled up in this one thread, it would actually turn out to be a useful topic. I'm like a kid in a candy store. I don't know which one to jump into first.....lol. I think I will try to stay out of this one. Anyone taking any bets on how many days I'll be successful at that? ;D

I suppose that one thing to keep in mind is there most likely is not one area where 100% of the 1.5 year olds are harvested. We like to say that but I doubt that ever really happens. It is also true that the yearling buck you let walk is unlikely to be the one you will be hunting in the future. So even if you could successfully wipe out every 1.5 yr old on your property, their will be another crop of them that come wandering onto your land to set up house-keeping. And they will likely come from your AR practicing neighbor who let them all walk. I don't know .... some of this is really starting to get a bit far out into the theoretical now. There seems to be an awful lot of "if you do this then maybe that will happen" going on here .... . All I can say is ...... ???

Ok, I solved the mystery and the news is not good. I substituted the 585 area code for the 716 and got ahold of the club secretary. They are still organized but just barely. They dropped NFAA affiliation because they could not get anyone to show up for tournaments. They are now down to about 5 active members and it didn't sound like there was any kind of tournament activity. Just a summer weekly get-together and a bit of shooting. What a shame. We used to be a huge lively organization with a great well maintained challenging course and clubhouse. It was sad to hear that they are all but defunct now. We had some great times there and a lot of friends. I guess I'll drop over some Wednesday next summer and see who's left.

I found all that info in one of the NYB newsletters or on their web site where they listed their supporters. However, I don't believe any of that is current. Avon had their area code changed from 716 to 585 quite a few years ago so I'm pretty sure that that info is outdated.

I have never been one to change just for the sake of changing, so I guess I like to have some reason to consider blowing up the hunting seasons. I haven't really heard one yet that I truly believe in. But I will admit that it is fun to listen to what others think. As far as the split season is concerned, I'm not really sure what that is supposed to accomplish.

Well, I'm not going to brag about how little snow we've had this year, or make a big thing about the fact that I have not yet had to plow the driveway even once. But so far, this is one of the better winters that I have ever had. There are heavy snowfall totals all around me but up to this point, the lake effect snow plumes from both Ontario and Erie have missed me. I hope I haven't jinxed myself now ??? Doc

I have a hard time trying to predict what all would be positives or negatives in some of these schemes. It's not my profession. What I can say is that I don't have any serious arguments with what is in place now. That doesn't mean that everything is perfect. That only means that from a laymans point of view, I have no facts to show that what is in place is wrong. Doc

It always amazes me how it is possible to manage a herd of deer without ever really knowing the size of it. When we say that the herd size is "unimportant", I have to wonder exactly how we could have any idea when it is "right-sized". Isn't raw quantity kind of a basic part of that management? Yes I know that we go through all kinds of statistical mumbo-jumbo each year with each new result being cumulatively built on, and impacted by, decades old annual results arrived at by the same means. We even come up with statewide numbers to serve as some sort of bogus measuring stick of management success. But none of it is ever subjected to on-the-ground real verification. I understand the economic difficulties of such verification (especially in these years of state fiscal crisis). But I don't believe I will ever be able to consider such mathmatical juggling to have a whole lot of credibility until such time as they make some periodic attempts at some crude version of observed verifications of their statistical results. And yes I have heard all about the statistical model verifications by "expert statisticians", but that is not the kind of verification that I am talking about. I don't care if their math is correct. I am more concerned with whether the statistics are turning out credibility in actual useable results. I have seen periods of both extremes of mismanagement (over-population and under-population) as have we all, and these have been admitted to by the DEC so I know it is not flawless. When we see examples of such management gone awry it seems to me that verification is a reasonable thing to demand if any part of the system is to be believed. Yeah, I know it all sounds like some version of paranoia, but I really do have difficulties with great amounts of mathmatical fancy footwork. If it always worked out well, I guess I would have a need to ever question it ....... but it doesn't.

It seems that some of you have not figured out that the DEC only takes one of the seasons seriously when it comes to population control. There is only one weapon that can consistantly cut populations when they deem it necessary to do so, or that can build populations through cuts in antlerless permits when that action is deemed necessary. Other than unique urban situations (where there is no choice) population control is not all that effective with bows, or muzzleloaders, or crossbows. Those seasons are niche or novelty seasons that the DEC does not view as serious controls for populations. The real management tool is the antlerless permit in the hands of the gunner. I honestly don't believe that the DEC will ever entertain cuts in the gun season (or should they). The idea that crossbows will ever even begin to replace the productivity lost by cutting gun season length is simply not being anywhere near realistic. Their contribution will be basically insignificant. I'm sure we all have many ideas for shredding the NYS season structure, but it all further convinces me that even though crippled and financially maimed, I am oh so glad that we still have professionals at the helm making those kinds of decisions.

Things change in our lives. If your heart isn't really into riding and racing, the choice gets a whole lot more simple. Do you have a chunk of land picked out yet?

Now there is something that the animal rights groups will be showing as often as they can. What a pair of losers.

Donald Duck was the name of the mason that did my chimney on the house back in 1976.

That 16% success rate is telling. You would have thought that the success rate would be much higher. If the DEC really wanted to down size the deer herd by increasing the number of does killed they could implement more drastic measures such as doe days and mandatory killing of a doe before being able to kill a buck. I have read about the low success rates on DMPs before, and some of that may be true or flawed for various reasons, but I know from past personal observation that when the DEC decides to down-size the herd, the antlerless permit system is definitely up to the task when they decide to flood the area with DMPs. It works! Sometimes too well ..... lol.

I have never bought any bow that I didn't at least hold in my hand and draw. And most of them I actually shot before buying. If you are planning on spending limited dollars, and buying a used bow for a first one, it probably is not as important as when or if you decide to upgrade to a newer, more expensive bow. After some time shooting, you will settle in on certain things that are important to you when it comes to how a bow "handles". These are little nuances that are sort of personal choices or preferences and cannot be determined through written bow tests and advertisements in catalogs or internet sources. Also, when dealing with used bows, hands on, pre-purchase experience might allow you to look for troubles before you buy. Hairline cracks in limbs or leaning cams, or strings and cables that have not been properly maintained or are in need of replacement, as well as cosmetic problems cannot be seen in pictures. Complaining about such things after the sale and shipment may not do a whole lot of good depending on whether or not the seller agrees that the problems are really problems. Also, if at all possible, when buying a used bow, take someone along that has been shooting a while and is familiar with what some of these problems actually look like.

Sounds good to me Group hug? Stand back!!! Don't you be touching me!

I think they're getting ready to declare "global cooling" so that they have both bases covered.

Sounds good to me