steve863

I have hunted the Catskill region for a LONG time, and have yet to meet the honest hunter who sees numerous bucks while out hunting during a season year after year. Typically if you let one pass and it don't matter how big or small he is, it may be the last one you will see in the season. This still holds for even the regions that have had the AR's for a few years now. If this wasn't the case we'd be seeing way more of the AR supporters here posting pictures of some of these nice bucks they claim are walking around. All I see is a few game cam photos and hardly any photos with hunters posing behind these big dead bucks. LOL In my opinion a lot of hot air is being blown around on how much AR's have improved things.

I can't say I am a big supporter of this youth hunt. I am not much of a bowhunter either, before someone accuses me of being a selfish bowhunter who doesn't want anyone else hunting in his season. I just don't see a youth hunt being very beneficial. Isn't it better just to have a kid tag along with an older hunter before he is of legal age to hunt? The kid would get way MORE out of observing how others go about hunting for a few seasons instead of sticking a gun in his hands and having them hunt in a season that is NOT representative of what hunting typically is like during a regular season. If they tag along for few seasons, by the time they are of legal age they will be more than ready to take part in a regular without nearly as much supervision as those kids who will be hunting the youth season, many of whom will be in the woods for the very first time.

You can stick a fork in yourself, buddy! You're done!! Just kidding, it ain't all bad. Best of luck to you!

And once you get married and have kids you will probably read even less. And probably drink less, hunt less, go to the gym less, have sex less, have less money, etc. LOL

You are well read! Varied selection of books there. If you ever want a good read about hunting that is far from your run of the mill "how to" book, you need to get "Meditations on Hunting" by spanish philosopher Jose Ortega Y Gasset. Digs deep into the reasons why we choose to hunt. Anything by Theodore Roosevelt is also great reading. His sons also wrote a good books called "East of the Sun and West of the Moon" about hunting sheep in the Himalayas. Peter Hathaway Capstick on African hunting is always entertaining. Col. Charles Askins, "Unrepentant sinner" - this was an autobiography of the famous gun writer. Real interesting book about his experiences in the military, border patrol, hunting and as a gun writer. The guy was plum crazy which is what makes the book interesting. Anyway, here are just a few I would recommend that are hunting/gun related, yet not the standard boring "how to" reads.

Do the trades have to be a DMP for a DMP, or can someone trade for example a box of ammo, a knife or something else for a DMP?

I love this! "Hi, I am Steve863 and I go out of my way to shoot the dinkiest bucks I can find to piss off AR supporters on the huntingny.com forum". Always a good thing to acknowledge our demons, that's for darned sure! LOL

Thanks for highlighting that SteveB. Similar results have been shown in other states, too. In a nutshell AR's have done little to nothing to change the yearling buck take. You have guys kill a decent buck in these AR areas and they give full credit to the AR rule, like a decent buck had never been shot before in these areas. Good bucks are taken EVERYWHERE and always have been. Some people get them by luck, others thru skill and patience. Implementing AR's is simply a quick fix solution for a generation that wants quick fixes for everything.

So you think I fell from the sky just yesterday and haven't read any of this research you are suggesting?? I can tell you I've read plenty of it and absolutely NONE of it gives me confidence that the health of the herd is the primary objective behind it. It was put in place to help grow bigger antlered bucks for hunters as it's primary goal, period. Now, I have nothing against someone wanting to kill big bucks if that is what drives them to hunt. The problem I have is you people using these "it's best for the herd" theories, when you guys damn well know that most of the people who created these theories could give a crap about the herd, if their wasn't something in it for them. And what's in it for them is potentially bigger antlered bucks. I tell you if you can't figure this out, or can't be honest enough to admit the self-serving facets behind all this, I feel sorry for you.

And Doe, if hunting doesn't turn out to be his thing, we can always use him for our "Kumbaya" choir! Could post a video of him singing when things get ugly around here. LOL

That along with a date with a Victoria's Secret model would have guys signing up for hunter safety courses in droves.

How to grow hunter numbers in New York? Implementing AR's can be a start. LOL

Yes, like the AR supporters sending in copies of the same exact letter, many of which were not even signed. I am not making this up either. Read their report on the public comments and you can read this for yourself. Maybe next time me and Doe can buy a bunch of xerox paper and draft a letter and drive up to Albany and drop them on the DEC's doorstep. It worked for the AR supporters, so it might for us also. LOL At least if these clowns could write a letter in support in their own words I'd give them some credit, instead of sending the same bloody copy 100,000 times!!

Why should we accept your answer?? If the DEC gave me that answer, maybe I can begin to accept it. So far they haven't, so I see absolutely NO reason why I should take your answer over theirs.

The only thing I will agree with you on is what I highlighted. That pretty much sums it up, just like I said before. It's ALL about hunters hoping to shoot bigger bucks and the "it's better for the herd" argument is just lip service to help justify their true desires. Whether you want to believe it or not, hunting is basically allowed to reduce the deer herds. Society for the most part can accept that. Tell them that hunters true motives are to kill trophies without the "its better for the herd" song and dance, and public support will go downhill real fast.

That is what I was told to do when I wrote to the DEC in opposition of AR's. So how would writing the reps actually help? The way I understand thing is that the DEC enacted this plan all by themselves after a public comment period. They have a legal mandate to do whatever they wish as far as the deer herd is concerned. Legal Mandate The basis for New York’s deer management program is established in the New York State Environmental Conservation Law (ECL) which spells out specific policy, authority and responsibility related to the deer resource. Excerpts of selected law include: Section 11-0105 The State of New York owns all fish, game, wildlife, shellfish, crustacean and protected insects in the state, except those legally acquired and held in private ownership. Section 11-0303 The general purpose of powers affecting fish and wildlife, granted to the department by the Fish and Wildlife Law, is to vest in the department, to the extent of the powers so granted, the efficient management of the fish and wildlife resources of the state. Such resources shall be deemed to include all animal and vegetable life and the soil, water and atmospheric environment thereof, owned by the state or of which it may obtain management, to the extent that they constitute the habitat of fish and wildlife as defined in section 11-0103. Such management shall be deemed to include both the maintenance and improvement of such resources as natural resources and the development and administration of measures for making them accessible to the people of the state. To such extent as it shall deem feasible without prejudice to other functions in the management of fish and wildlife resources of the state and the execution of other duties imposed by law, the department is directed, in the exercise of the powers conferred upon it, to develop and carry out programs and procedures which will in its judgment, (a) promote natural propagation and maintenance of desirable species in ecological balance, and ( lead to the observance of sound management practices for such propagation and maintenance on lands and waters of the state, whether owned by the state or by a public corporation of the state or held in private ownership, NYS Deer Management Plan Page 7having regard to (1) ecological factors, including the need for restoration and improvement of natural habitat and the importance of ecological balance in maintaining natural resources; (2) the compatibility of production and harvesting of fish and wildlife crops with other necessary or desirable land uses; (3) the importance of fish and wildlife resources for recreational purposes; (4) requirements for public safety; and (5) the need for adequate protection of private premises and of the persons and property of occupants thereof against abuse of privileges of access to such premises for hunting, fishing or trapping.

Why don't you paste the rest of their conclusions on AR's?? What benefits to the herd does this reduction of the yearling buck take have? NONE. A 1.5 Y/O will breed with does just the same as a 3.5 Y/O, and will pass on the same exact genes to the next generation. So what real difference does it make which buck gets the bullet thru it's lungs?? The honest answer is again NONE. The ONLY benefit it might have is to hunters who somehow think that by passing on all the 1.5 Y/O, they will only have big bucks running around their stands like they see on the TV shows. That pretty much sums it all up for you here.

Please show me where the DEC considers AR's a management decision?? They have repeatedly stated that AR's have NO biological benefits for the herd. The only reason they were implemented was because AR's have become a "social issue" in these areas. Read their reports and you will see. So tell me, what the hell does a "social issue" have to do with game management? If the DEC told me that from their studies AR's are considered beneficial for deer management I may be able to swallow this concept and begin to accept it. When they tell me that it is basically a "social issue", I call it BS. So everyone now has to follow the big rack mentality just because some have "social issues", showing off a buck that may not measure up to what they see on TV?? That is BS in its purest form. It's the same syndrome as those who think their weiner is bigger than the next guys. Absolutely not ONE speck of evidence has been brought out by the DEC to validate that AR's have been implemented for management decision purposes. I dare you guys to show me some info. And don't give me the QDMA crap neither. That is not coming from the mouths of the DEC officials.

And you translate that into us claiming to be a great hunters?? We don't go around telling stories of how many we have killed unlike NFA who has told us more than we honestly care to know about his hunting experiences. He's killed like what? Less than 5 in 20 plus years of hunting?? It don't take a Phd in mathematics to figure out that many of us here have killed a hell of a lot more of them than he has. That is the point here. Not boasting, justing pointing a few facts out since he was the first to accuse us of not being able to kill a deer.

Jesus Christ, who is a bigger drama queen than you?? I can't think of one. None of us are claiming to be mighty hunters here. We do however go hunting with the intent on killing a deer. You have written long winded essays on how great hunting is and how much you love it and how killing don't really matter to you. Good for you, those are your reasons.. For the rest of us killing a deer is an important part of it and it would get old pretty fast if we weren't allowed to shoot anything while out hunting. As I've said before one can look at birds and enjoy the outdoors in numerous different ways without ever needing to purchase a hunting license or wait for hunting season.

Why don't you wait for your grand trophy and let everyone else shoot what they are damned well happy with?? But NOOOO, you can't be that fair can you?? Then you try to accuse us that its all about us. BULL$#!+ it is!! WITHOUT AR's you guys can still hunt for your trophies all you want, while the rest of us can be happy with whatever we choose to take. WITH AR's you are limiting others to what YOU want them to take. So who is all about here?? Sure as hell ain't about us, but ALL about YOU and what YOUR idea of what hunting is all about. Just unbelievable how you guys can't get this simple fact thru your thick skulls.

+1 to what Culver said. NFA, you could only WISH you killed as many deer as people like me, Doe and Culver. I can assure you that we have killed more than you will ever see. We are not like you after all. We go out and put in our best effort to actually put a deer down and sooner or later in a hunting season we do just that. If we were like you who waits for hunting season to count woodpeckers in the woods, we wouldn't even bother getting hunting licenses.

Some more jibberish from someone who didn't even read the bloody report. Why the hell does the DEC call AR's a social issue then? So the rest of us have to abide by hunting laws created because some hunters have "social issue" concerns with shooting a buck less than 3 points to a side?? Talk about a crock. Maybe you should stop and study who the real whiners are with this issue.

Your usual 1000 word essay of worthless gibberish. You really have little understanding of hunting and hunters. You just see it from your selfish perspective. People hunt for different reasons. You may enjoy hunting 20 years without killing anything, but most of the rest of us go hunting to put something down and into the freezer. Or at least we want to know that we are allowed to kill something with the license we purchase. If we hunt in areas where doe permits are almost impossible to get and only bucks of 3 points to a side can be taken, it makes little sense to hunt for many. We can go into the woods at any time of the year and enjoy the outdoors in other ways without ever needing to give the DEC our money for a license to be allowed to shoot next to nothing.

Maybe some of you ought to read the DEC report where it summarized it's findings on the feedback it got from the public when AR's where proposed for the new areas. The "sportmans's" groups who were pushing for AR's flooded the DEC with copies of the same damned letter, most of the letters unsigned. How is a person to compete with such nonsense?? Easy for you guys to say "get involved". I have no doubt these "sportsmans" groups also greased a few DEC palms to get what they wanted. The shananigans involved here were more than most of us could compete with. As noodle one noted in his original post. The desires of a few with influences in the right places screwed the rest of us.