wolc123

As far as the crew here goes, I vote for Chef, since he is in the lead on the contest and has saved me more valuable hunting time than any other member. G-man gets second, thanks to his providing that PA chest girth chart that I know and love. I don't know of any bad hunters here, but some are a lot more fun to argue with than others. It gets boring when everyone thinks the same. Trying different things is cool and new ideas are always welcome. Heck, I even threw one up on a scale this year. Now I know better than to do that again.

That is a 1.5 year old spike, not a 6 month old button. It has been about 20 years since I shot one of them. There is no point in shooting one of those, since they taste exactly the same as a 2-1/2 or 3-1/2 year old buck, but have much less meat on them. Within the 1-1/2 year age class, the spikes, threes and fours are usually smaller than the fives, sixes and sevens. It has been almost that long since I killed any with less than three on a side. When it comes to meat quality (especially the liver), a six month old is nearly worth it's weight in gold, as far as my taste buds are concerned. Those of you who have never tried one have not a clue of what you are missing. I would shoot them all at 6 months if I could and my wife and kids would be thrilled if that ever happened. I would consider this my second best crossbow season ever, thanks to the 100 pound plus field-dressed button buck. The 43" chest girth, 3.5 year old behemoth that I nailed last year just barely edges it out. It takes an awful lot of quantity to beat out that much quality. I was pushing hard for full inclusion until that monster button came along this year, the first time I have ever been able to punch a DMP with my crossbow. If we do get a poll going, I might be inclined to vote: "leave the seasons like they are" if that is given as an option, rather than just "for" or "against" full inclusion. I also liked having that extra time for hen-turkey hunting with my shotgun. Those hen turkey drumsticks were almost as tasty as this button buck's liver.

I finished the euro on this one with the power washer (it took longer than usual so I must be loosing some pressure), but I have not made the skull comparison yet. Still leaning towards 3.5 but may be a big-bodied 2.5. The lower jaw cleaned up real good and that did not take long with the washer.

The value of the quick estimate is that normally our entire year's supply of venison comes in during the last week of archery and the first week of gun. That means there is usually multiple deer hanging or in the deer fridge, some tags still available and it makes it easy to see if I should keep shooting or stop. Once I get up near 200 pounds of boned out meat, I can back off a bit and/or be a little more selective in my targets.

Come on man, even I can see that is photo-shopped. His head is way to big (in the picture I mean).

Most of my own "disdain" is because it is illegal. I am sure I will hear: "so is driving 1 mph over the speed-limit". That maybe true, however the accepted standard is driving about 8 mph over the speed limit and keeping up with traffic is safer for all than slowing it down. Keeping people safe trumps following the letter of the law in the case of driving. It also seems stupid to me because I can grow corn cheaper than I can buy it. Why waste the money on "bait" when I can legally plant a food plot. Finally, (sorry about this one FSW), there is the CWD (and other disease) issue. Bait brings deer close together in an unnatural way, promoting the spread of disease. Is it any wonder that the only CWD discovered in NY has been on deer farms? I don't know of anyone who baits. If I did, I would not hesitate to call the DEC about it. I also understand that most folks are too afraid to do that. If any law-breaking, stupid, disease - spreading baiters read this, try thinking a little bit more about what you are doing and if the benefits really outweigh the costs ?

Do you still have one hanging and a type measure handy ? We could use a few more data points for a more accurate NY correction factor.

I agree which is why I don't usually do it. I only did it this last time because I had the buck on the back of the van and the scale was not far out of my way on my way home. I thought it would be a good opportunity to check the accuracy of the PA chart.

I am interested in G-man's numbers also. He is the one who first brought us the chart and has claimed to get pretty good correlation. I think his place is much closer to the PA border than you or I which might explain the better results. Also, all these "experts" who claim to be able to weigh a deer from an internet photo ought to have a tape measure laying around. I wonder why they never post any of their own chest girth numbers ? I finally posted one up on a scale. That did seem to shut a few of them up anyhow.

It sounds like you also missed where I said that weight does not mean that much to me because what you are weighing is more than 60 % water which has no nutritional value and varies a lot depending on how fast you get it on the scale. VOLUME of venison is my primary concern and chest girth provides for a more direct estimate of that. I want to know how many quart-sized freezer bags of meat I get from a deer. I can get all the water I need cheap from the tap. Also, I don't know about the accuracy of those $ 25 "made in China" scales which is why I weighed my buck on a "legal for trade", made in USA butcher's balance.

Thanks for the additional data point. Here is an "average" NY correction factor using our three available data points: 1) SJ's daughter's buck: 40" chest girth, 180 pound actual field-dressed weight, PA chart prediction = 144 pounds (- 20.0 %). 2) My gun buck: 42" chest girth, 182 pound actual field-dressed weight, PA chart prediction = 170 pounds (- 6.59 %). 3) Your doe (congrats by the way): 31" chest girth, 117 pound actual field-dressed weight, PA chart prediction = 74 pounds (- 36.8 %). Giving equal weight to each data points, the average correction would be 21.1 %. For a NY deer, multiply the field dressed weight from the PA chart by 1.21. That would give my 35" girth button buck a field-dressed weight of almost 120 pounds, probably a NY state record for a "wild" six month old. FSW probably has a hard time fattening his tame ones up that much behind his fence. That would also mean that the smaller-antlered, but larger chest girth (43"), that I killed in the same woods with my crossbow last season, had a field dressed weight of 220 pounds. That would be a record for me. My heaviest buck, that I had put on a scale prior to this year (and also my largest rack) was 178 pounds. Like I mentioned before though, weight of a deer don't mean all that much to me since it is always more than 60 % water. Water has no nutritional value. Volume of venison is what I am after, and the chest girth method provides a better estimate of that. In all three cases here, where the deer was put on a scale, the NY deer are heavier than the weights predicted by the PA chart. Maybe you were pulling the tape measure way too tight on your doe (did you use a seamstresses tape or mark a string like G-man). My guess is that you got her on the scale very soon after gutting her. That ends up with a lot of water weight. My buck had hung outside in a tree for about 6 hours prior to weighing and I think SJ put his daughter's buck on a scale the day after gutting. Allowing some time for the carcass to dry out gets rid of some of that water weight. Thanks again for participating in this complicated mathematical experiment. I can give my daughter back her calculator now.

Very good question, family I guess. Otherwise, I should have spent a few years in Ohio. The crossbow has turned out to be far better than I expected. No wounded and lost deer, no misses, no ruined meat, no noise, minimal "practice required", all for $ 250. Definitely the best money I have spent on this sport. I probably would upgrade my entry level crossbow, if full-inclusion ever goes through. As I mentioned in my first post, I am content with the rules as they are now (and with the extra cash to use on better things). As long as the freezer stays full every year, I ain't complaining. I am very thankful to have access to my favorite weapon in the Southern zone at my favorite time to hunt (the rut), and for those three extra "bonus" days a month earlier up in the Northern zone. Hopefully, Heaven will be this good.

Maybe that is why I have not seen any deer on our own farm since dumping the first whitetail butchering scraps in early November. There are four chewed up carcasses on that pile now (fortunately the hunting has been good over at my folk's place on the other corner of the WMU, and at my buddy's cabin in the southern tier). I got a quick look at a fat coyote running out of our woods on Sunday afternoon. It plunged thru a deep ditch at the border of our land to make it's escape, and I could really tell how fat it was with it's fur all wet. It was way too fast for me to get a shot off. Usually I only see them at night under a full (or close to it) moon or right around sunrise at this time of year. That last sighting was at 1:30 in the afternoon.

I guess that explains why you left Mississippi. You don't sound very happy here in NY. Maybe you, Doc and the three or four other NYB members who have chimed in on this thread could get yourselves in a min-van and head out west to Oregon. More than likely, you "heroes" could live out your lives there without having to worry about us weaker and/or less dedicated folks bothering "your" deer. Besides whitetails, they have mule deer, blacktails, elk, moose, and more big game species that are not available to hunt in NY, making that last crossbow-free state a virtual sportsman's paradise. The fishing is very good out there also. The scenery around the Columbia river and Mt Hood rivals that of NY's Adirondacks. I have visited a few times but you would never catch me living in a state where I could not use my favorite weapon on my favorite animal to eat. Speaking of that, besides button bucks and hen turkeys, are you mad about my liking to keep and eat "just barely keeper" bass ? I hope you are blessed with enough venison this season in NY, especially if it is your last.

I appreciate all those baby bucks that you and the other trophy hunters pass on. Some years, they might be all that prevents more store-bought chicken from being served at our house. Keep up the spectacular work and don't let the wanabees get you down.

We stayed at Peaks of Otter in VA a few times. The scenery was great, almost on par with the Adirondacks. There were lots of whitetail deer around there that would eat apples right out of your hands. I think the lodge and motel is still run by Delaware North (headquartered in Buffalo NY). They had taken over ownership just prior to our last stay. Under the previous ownership, they always had a great, all you can eat, seafood buffet. I am not sure if that has continued under Delaware North.

I am planning to head up Friday to ML hunt Saturday and Sunday. Our Thanksgiving weekend trip did not pan out as I had hoped, since I chose to punch my buck tag on a big old swamp buck at home on opening day of the Southern zone. I still went up, and got to spend some quality time with my daughter (she loved the snowmobiling) and her grandparents. She was a little less enthused with the target shooting but I finally managed to get my father in law's scoped Marlin 336 sighted in. I can't wait to use that for fair-weather deer hunting next season. It will be nice to not to have to lug my big, heavy Ruger 30/06 thru that terrain. We even did a little ice fishing off the end of the dock on Friday when we awoke to a lake covered by about an inch and a half of ice. It took two hard throws to get a big rock to break thru. She had fun just throwing rocks out onto the ice and watching them skip across (the fish were not biting). My hunting on that trip was just for bear, coyote, and grouse. Naturally, I did not see any of those, but I did see more deer sign than ever in the wonderful snow (just a single lonely set of coyote tracks this time). One deer even wandered slowly by, about 100 yards away, as I was blowing on my predator call, armed with my double barrel 16 gauge, loaded with two slugs. I had no optics, to see if it had horns, but they must have been very small if it did. I can't wait to get up there in zone 6C this weekend, with an either/or and an antlerless ML tag. Our freezers are stuffed pretty good now, with (4) deer from the southern zone archery and gun seasons, but my brother in law could use one or two more for making jerky.

Sounds like you and I are both litterers. I leave a fair amount of surveyors tape lying around in the woods.

It has worked perfectly for me about a dozen times, with only two failures (same type as you describe). One of those failures was on a young deer. I did not sufficiently clean off the residue from that, prior to using it on the next old doe later that afternoon, and the fouled teeth likely caused the second failure. There are You-tube videos that show the process pretty well, but they don't take the age of the deer into account.. A lot is by "feel". When the "clean" teeth bite into the wall, it gets harder to turn. On average, that is 1-1/2 turns. On a younger deer, it will engage faster. It worked perfectly on a button buck for me this year (about 1 turn). My 3-1/2 year old gun buck took two turns. Chef mentions "not going too deep", but I think the butt-out II has a flange to prevent that.

First, I stick the barrel of my loaded (safety off) weapon into the eye and watch for a blink. After that, I put on some long rubber gloves. I start out with the butt-out: Insert, turn 1-1/2 times or until you feel the teeth engage the anus wall, then pull it out. Tie off near the end (I usually use surveyors ribbon), and cut off the end with my Buck 110. Next, roll the deer onto it's back and cut off the genetalia if it is a buck (toss the nuts into a zip lock bag if you prefer, that will also get the heart and liver if it is a 6-month old deer). Carefully cut thru the hide at the center of the sternum with the tip of the knife, then get a couple fingers next to the blade and guide it down to the pelvis. Cutting towards the pelvis results in less hair hair on the meat like like Tacs has already mentioned. After that, I rip everything out behind the diaphram. Next, I cut thru the pelvis bone with a Gerber folding saw and make sure the bladder and any other "bad" stuff is cleared out of that area. Then I cut out the diaphram and rip everything in front out, rarely needing the knife. With the carcass still on it's back, and the head slightly uphill, I use the blood to rinse out the rear section. I never use water to rinse a carcass, even if some gut juice, piss or crap has spilled inside. The blood rinse gets rid of all that stuff and it is always handy. Last, I cut open the stomach to see what it has been eating (usually finding corn). This whole process takes me about 10 minutes. Before the butt-out, it took 20 (Thanks again Chef). That has been a lot of "prime-time" gained over the last three seasons.

Are you against killing button bucks and hen turkeys in the fall ? If so, maybe you could take it up with the state and see if they will change the rules to better suit yourself. Complaining about others, who are doing things that are legal, just reaffirms your own admitted "elitism". When it comes to fishing, I would rather catch a limit of "just barely keeper" bass than a couple of big ones. It is all about the meat for me and quality often trumps quantity. The drumsticks from a fall hen wild turkey are much better eating than those from a spring tom and the venison from a 6 month old buck is much better than that from an older one (I can't tell the difference in a 1-1/2 thru 3-1/2 as long as the carcass has been aged properly prior to freezing). When it comes to crossbows, as I said earlier, I no longer mind the seasons staying like they are with no "full inclusion". Having the best two weeks of the Southern zone is great, and the month earlier opening up in the Northern zone is a nice bonus. One compromise that I would like to see would be making October 1 thru October 14 "traditional" and restricted to recurves and longbows, and making compounds and crossbows legal for the rest of archery season. It is the "compound-only" complainers like yourself and the other (3) NYB members who have piled on this thread who I have issue with. Oregon would be a great place for you folks. Maybe it is time again to find out where the membership of this site stands on the issue. I know we have one moderator who is for full inclusion and another who is against it. In the first poll on this, posted in the bow-hunting section more than (2) years ago, full inclusion was in the lead by a 2:1 margin. In last year's poll, that lead had widened to about 3:1. Who knows, maybe it is up to 4:1 now but it is very clear the anti's are fighting a loosing battle. Should that be a surprise when the only ground they stand on is selfish elitism.

I was very pressed for time last this year, with a big barn dismantle/construction project that ate up almost all of my spare time. We are finally starting to catch up on that one. This winter, I hope to fit in some hinge-cutting. I also hope to get in another pond and clear some trees up near the house, over the summer, so that we can enjoy sunsets over the water from our back deck. I am going to try and get in some more winter wheat next fall, as I have been missing that this year. The one little plot I got in did not pan out.

Wife hit it out of the park tonight. Button-buck sloppy-joes, sweet-potato fries, salad, and a Genny-light. It was the best meal we had in a long time.

At one time I argued for full-inclusion, but I have settled into liking it the way it is now. Three things helped changed my tune: First, I have access to a nice spot in the northern-zone, where the crossbows are legal in mid-October. Second, there is other good stuff to hunt in October in the southern zone, including squirrels and turkeys (I had a little success with each of those this year). Those fall wild-hen turkey drumsticks were excellent. Third, and most important, I finally managed to take my first antlerless deer during the 2-week southern-zone crossbow season this year. Not just any old antlerless deer, but what may be a record-sized button buck based on the PA chest girth chart. With the NY correction applied determined from SJ's and my own real scale-weight comparisons on his daughter's and my own big bucks, the field-dressed weight worked out to over 100 pounds. Maybe not a state record, but most likely a record for me. My wife was extremely happy with the more than 50 pounds of the finest of meat that "fatted-calf" yielded. The bottom line for me is that I still support full-inclusion if I had a vote, but I am quite content with what we have right now.

The forum is awesome. Where would I be without the butt-out (thanks Chef), or the PA chest girth chart (thanks G-man). The most important advice I can give you all is to learn who controls the fate of all living things and ACT accordingly. Once you get that figured out, hunting (and everything else) gets much easier.