wolc123

You got to give one thing to LJC anyhow. He is such a verbose member of the anti - full inclusion crowd, that the other two or three members of that group have backed off entirely on here now. Maybe they should name a state park after him and give him exclusive hunting rights to it and then he won't have to share HIS deer with anyone else. The less competition the better. Who gives a crap about what the majority of bowhunters want. Polls don't mean nothing. Look how bad it has gotten in PA since the crossbow hordes moved in.

I am going to try for a 9F and a 9A tomorrow. You can only get two more total.

I can only dream of "roughing it" like that some day. I am getting a bit spoiled when I go up there now, staying in my in-laws new lake-side retirement home with my mother in law doing the cooking and my father in law helping to haul out the deer. I do help them out with some heavy lifting chores, but I definitely feel that I am getting more than I deserve in the deal. Your videos make me miss the days when I was "off the grid" up there. Before they built their new retirement home, on small land-locked lake, they would rent a cabin, for a long weekend (either opening of ML or rifle) every year, at a very remote, off-grid location that had water access to the Indian river. The first couple years, while I was dating my wife, I had to stay out in my truck camper (alone). After we got married, they let me stay in the cabin. The one thing I liked better about the camper was that I could just set the thermostat on the propane heater and be comfortable all night. The wood fireplace in the cabin was ok during the early evening but extremely cold in the mornings. I used a rowboat and a small outboard, to get to different hunting locations along the river. My rifle was unloaded or ML uncapped and cased, during the boat trips. Several times I noted deer down my the water (mostly does but two 1-1/2 year old bucks one time). Hunting from the canoe would definitely have been effective up there. The one doe I killed there with my ML was at a location where I had heard deer snorting the year prior, from out in the boat. I think your chances of catching a deer out on the waters edge are pretty good. There is definitely something special about not having any other hunters around. I never saw any at the old spot on the Indian river. The first few years at the new place, there were a couple other guys, one of whom showed me the hot spots, but both of them have passed away. I had it all to myself last season, but this year a couple new guys moved in. They are both great guys, but have caused me to locate some new hot-spots, as they have taken to my old ones. There seems like plenty of deer to go around for all up there, for this season at least.

I killed one with a shotgun, that had an arrow pass thru just above the spine and the broadhead was stuck under the hide on the exit side, when I skinned him. The buck appeared perfectly healthy when I shot him. He was hot on the trail of a doe I had just killed and actually standing over her dead body when I dropped him next to her. I trimmed out a few chops near the wound, but it did not look infected (probably a week old wound), and he probably would have recovered. Arrows cut very clean compared to lead bullets. I struck another large buck in the shoulder blade with an arrow when he jumped the string. A friend took him with a shotgun several weeks later and the wound was all healed up with just a big scar on the stricken shoulder. Based on these experiences, I think that most recover when struck above the vitals. Gut hits are far less common, and certainly always fatal. Just looking at the lost deer folks are posting on this site this year, and the past few seasons, it seems like the vast majority are high, above the spine or shoulder hits, and almost all of them will likely survive. The reason for most of these high hits is string jump, caused by shooting at deer that are alert because they caught a glimpse of the draw, or responded to a grunt call or rattle. If someone feels the need to shoot at an alert deer (I will not do it again personally), I would advise aiming at the bottom part of the heart (about 4" up from the bottom of the deer, behind the shoulder). If he does not jump, you get a heart shot, If he goes down hard, you will get a high-lung hit - and a very dead, easily recovered deer in either case.

How about getting this thread back on topic: The "dissapearing" poll thread that was in the bowhunting section, showed that the BOWHUTERS on this site supported "full inclusion" over "leave it the way it is now" by approximately a 2:1 margin. That is a real breakthrough in this fight and should signal the beggining of the end to those who are carrying on the fight against full inclusion. All you are doing by carrying on is increasing casualties within the ranks of hunters. Your cause is lost, just admit it and move on like those in many other states where the sky has not fallen, and almost all of which rank higher than NY in hunter satisfaction.

I started using a pair of black rubber "Mickey" boots last season when my old lacrosses finally wore out. Those things are "Goofy" looking, but work awesome. I think you can buy them new, for about $80 or surplus in good condition for about $40. They keep my feet warm in very cold conditions and are completely waterproof to about 12". They are also fairly light weight and easy to walk in. A couple weeks ago, on a week long NZ ML hunt, I had the perfect footwear with a pair of Altima combat boots for the first half of the week in warm, dry conditions, and the Mickey boots for the latter part of the week when the cold, monsoon rains came.

My daughter just scored me about 100 Reeses peanut butter cups. I should be all set thru late ML season.

I expect to switch over to Blackhorn 209, when my current supply of 777 pellets are exhausted. The easier cleanup is the main advantage there. I never minded loose powder. I always carried a couple speedloaders, loaded with a bullet in a sabot and the correct measure of powder plus about 5 extra grains, to allow for some spillage in a fast-load situation. With the pellets, I just put (2) in each speedloader, along with the bullet and sabot. I carry the speedloaders and a starter rod in my right side jacket pocket. I only used a second shot one time. A doe that I had "double lunged", with a shot to the side at close range, started to get back up when I got next to her. I am sure it was not necessary, but it was hard to see her suffer, and with the second shot she died.

There is a product on the market called "bloodglow" that, when mixed with water, causes blood to glow bright under the moon and starlight. They say it works even better in the rain. The active ingredient is luminol and it was developed for crime scene investigations. I am on the opposite side of the state, but if you know anyone in law-enforcement out there, they may be able to get you some. This stuff picks up blood drops that you can not see. If you got on that blood trail tonight with luminol, you may at least get closure on that hit, even if the meat is bad. I think your arrow passed thru above the spine, in the thick "back-strap" area. If that is true, then he will probably recover, and is probably out chasing does right now. A few years back I killed a basket-racked 8-point that had a broadhead , and a few inches of shaft, stuck under the hide on the exit side. The wound must have been about a week old (it was opening day of gun season) and I lost about (4) chops when trimming out the "questionable" looking stuff around the wound.

Congrats on the doe ADK. She should be fine hanging overnight and tomorrow if the temp stays under 50. I cut up a doe on Friday that had hung since last Sunday (the temps were in the mid 30's to mid 40's the whole time). My daughter and I had the tenderloins for lunch yesterday and they were about the most tender I can remember. The week prior, I took a doe up north in the really warm conditions, and I dropped her off at the processors in Lowville. It was nearly 80 then so I had few other options but to let them skin it and get it into their cooler right away.

Well at least that poll showed (for the brief time we had it) that the selfish elitists are going to have a tough time preventing full inclusion. Even the bowhunters who frequent this site support it by a 2:1 margin.

"Thanks you Phade and thanks Lord: " Awesome buck there Moog. Thanks for being very respectful and giving the credit where the credit was due. That is definitely one of the finer typical racks I have seen and will make a heck of a mount. To get it with a recurve makes it extra special. Now, I am really pumped to get out there with my crossbow next Saturday when it gets legal, and very thankful that I passed up a doe with my either/or tag up in the NZ last week. I was second guessing myself a bit because our family's food supply was not yet secured. The good Lord always provides however, and a neighbor kid dropped off a huge doe that he shot with his bow out back last Sunday, the day after I returned for my NZ ML trip. My daughter and I just polished off the tenderloins for lunch and they were wonderful (she likes them rare just like I do).

I use (2) 50 gr 777 pellets with the same bullet and sabot that CDM uses with my T/C Omega 50 cal. Other than a single glitch about 10 years ago, where I did not find the buck until the coyotes ate most of it, it has worked well every time (it was actually 100 gr of loose pyrodex on that one). I fired similar loads at about a dozen deer (including the one I posted in the harvest thread last week), and all but that one ended up in my freezer. That lost buck was at 175 yards, and I would certainly not try that far again with it. The accuracy is fine at 200 (5" diameter, 3 shot group), but I learned the hard way that there is not enough energy left at 175 yards for a good clean kill at a buck that presents a quartering away shot. A broadside shot at that range might be doable, but I will not try it. These days, I use my laser rangefinder to be sure that I stay within my limitations and for me that is 150 yards. This year's doe was only 25 yards away and the bullet went thru on a high lung shot. There was very little if any blood on her 40 yard trail, but the chest cavity was full when I gutted her. About half of the deer I have hit with that load, at ranges under 75 yards, have fallen dead in their tracks, while the rest have not made it farther than 50 yards. I am confident it would work well between 75 and 150 yards, based on energy tables, but have yet to try it there. I have got to admit that I was a little scared hunting in NY Adirondack bear country a couple weeks ago with that load. I definitely would have thought twice before shooting at one with it while I was deer hunting. I am sure it would do the job at close range or broadside behind the shoulder at longer ranges. I was a lot more comfortable with my 6 shot 30/06 after rifle season opened last Saturday. When I first bought the Omega, I tried many different loads and bullets. Nothing shot as accurate as those Hornady XTP's in the black sabots. The gun actually came from the factory with a tube of (5) of them. I wasted a lot of money trying other stuff. My 100 yard accuracy was the best with 100 grains of loose pyrodex (2" diameter, 3 shot group). Two 50 gr 777 pellets now hit the same place for me at 100 yards on the range, and the pellets are handier for loading and unloading.

The reason to change things is that the majority should get their way. The poll in the "bowhunting:" section was at nearly 2:1 in favor of full inclusion when it mysteriously disappeared. Obviously someone can't handle the truth. It looks like a majority of bow hunters (myself included) do favor full inclusion, not just gun hunters. Yet there remains a small minority of vocal, selfish, elitist bowhunters who are fighting against it. They will loose and the sooner they give up their pitiful selfish fight the better.

I left for home about noon on opening day of rifle season, from my location in WMU 6C, about 40 mi NW of your location. When I got up there, a week prior on opening day of ML, about 75% of the leaves were still on the trees and it was just past "peak" fall scenery time. By the time I left, the monsoon rains and winds had taken down almost all the leaves, and I did not get to see any snow. I got to see the lake at the lowest level I have ever seen, and the highest, all in one week. The weather the first half of the week was like mid-summer, which had me spending more time fishing than hunting. I tried a lot in deeper water for lake trout, without even a bite, but the smallmouth were very cooperative in the shallow water. I shot a medium sized doe just outside camp with my ML on the warmest morning, and had to run her down to Lowville for processing. I normally cut up my own, but the temperature was supposed to get up to 80 that day so I had to "sub it out" that time. Those folks down at Nolt's did an excellent job at an excellent price (less than $50 skinned, cut, ground and wrapped). We did enjoy the tenderloins with eggs for breakfast up at camp and they were good. I hunted a fair amount over the week and had run-ins with (6) deer, all while still-hunting. I did not see any antlers, except for little buttons on a young one that flushed out of the bushes just outside of camp. Two of them just showed me their tails, but they were bedded about 300 yards apart, were big deer, and may have been bucks. I was going to stay thru Sunday, but Nolt's was on my way home and I did not want to waste the extra time driving back and forth when they said the meat would me cut up by late morning Saturday (they are closed on Sunday's). Thank's again for the great video. I love the look of the snow on the mountain lake shores. Hopefully, we will get to see some this year when we head up again on Thanksgiving weekend. Unless I run across a real monster at home, I plan on saving my buck tag for that trip also. If you can move next years trip a week earlier for ML season, your odds of some better weather would improve a bit. Hopefully they will also make antlerless deer legal again at that time down there, which would multiply your odds of some venison by a factor of 10. That is based on my own observations of the antlerless/antler ratio over the last 10 years.

The last I saw, it was running in favor of full inclusion vs leaving it the way it is now by about a 2:1 margin. I can only assume that did not fit someone's agenda so they made it go away. The truth is a difficult thing to hide but the loosing side is so desperate to hold the line they will try just about anything at this point.

Lots of folks are just naturally restless. You know the type, every time they walk into a bar, they try a different beer. Others have a bad experience with a particular round and decide they need something with more power, or that kicks less, etc.. Others just have to use the latest and greatest. I feel extremely blessed to have 6 weapons right now with which I have killed every deer that I shot at. They ain't perfect and most have blemish or two (second or third shots required several times, one loss to coyotes because I could not find it soon enough, a misfire, and one missed bird). I can see myself adding maybe two more to the collection over the next few years, to provide some redundancy (another crossbow) and optimize performance in some situations (a light weight rifle for still-hunting). I think I could hunt deer in NY, happily ever after, with those two added to my current collection. They would all fit easy in my safe and gun cabinet.

I did not weigh her. Fortunately I had a 5 gallon bucket in the rowboat and I put her in it and ran across the lake, back to the house, with my father in law's 10 hp outboard at wide open throttle. I yelled for them to bring out a camera and a tape measure, then got her right back into the lake. I made sure my hands were wet when I touched her. She definitely used up a lot of energy on the landing, but she swam away real good when I released her. I think her odds of making it are good. The water temperature was in the lower 60's. Years ago, I caught a 23 incher out in lake Erie in that special early May season (also released). That one was probably a good bit heavier (also not weighed), being full of eggs, but did not put up nearly the fight in the cooler water (in the lower 50's). I was fishing for over an hour for lake trout, in deeper water before I tied on the jig and moved into the shoreline for this fall bass. Had she not shot straight up and jumped clear of the waterline, right after the hookset, I would have swore she was a big laker. After that jump, she peeled drag and headed out for deeper water. It took me more than 10 minutes to start pulling her back up. I was pulling as hard as I dared on the 8 pound line the whole time.

500 acres in zone 6C, 100 acres in zone 9F, 20 acres in zone 9A

My two favorite pursuits are whitetail deer and smallmouth bass and the warm weather made me go for the fish first on my trip to my in-laws place in the Adirondacks last week. This 22" was my largest in many years, and definitely the hardest fighter, taking 12 minutes to land on 8 pound test. She hit a 1/8 oz bucktail jig, in 5 feet of water, on opening day afternoon of NZ ML deer season. My father in law complained a bit when I released her (he wants to decorate his place with "native" mounts). She was just so healthy looking and in good shape that I had to put her back. I told him that I will mount a 23" if I ever get one, at least I have something to aim for now.

If I had one, I would set the thermostat to about 35 F. That is where the old fridge out in my garage usually runs, and I use that, with all the racks removed, to hang skinned deer halfs in, if it is too warm for hide-on, inside the garage aging. I have a big old doe hanging in my garage now, that a neighbor kid shot with his bow out back on Sunday morning. The thermometer I have stuck in the arrow hole, in the front shoulder, has been running at slightly below 40 F, since yesterday evening. I will process her this Saturday, when the temperature is predicted to rise above 50. I would age a 1.5 year old deer for one week at 35, a 2.5 year old for 10 days and older deer about 2 weeks. The rigermortice will break down quicker at higher temps. You don't have to worry much about the meat rotting if you keep it below 50 degrees. You will probably want to stop raising the beef when you see how good the aged venison is (I know we did). It does not get more "organic" than that, and surely it is a lot better for your heart. It is also nice that the deer take care of feeding themselves and I sure don't miss things like dealing with vets, frozen water supplies in the winter, and trying to get the hay in before the rain. Also, killing the wild deer don't bother me as much as killing the tame steers and heffers that we raised from birth.

I killed this medium sized doe on Tuesday morning, 10/18 up in DMU 6C with my T/C Omega 50 cal. The temperature was predicted to get up close to 80 F later that day, so I ran her down to Lowville for processing. After I shot, she ran back towards my in-laws house, making for an easy recovery. The tenderloins were very good with breakfast the next morning. Our girls were happy that now they can start having venison tacos again (we had used our last pack of grind from last year a few days before I left for my ML hunting trip). I have to score another one for the Bible with this one. I headed out that morning a bit before sunrise (with my ML uncapped), but I turned back when I remembered that I had forgot my normal weekday routine of reading a couple pages. I went back and did that, plus assembled and read the instructions for my new tree umbrella (which I had also forgotten and rain was in the forecast). By the time I finished those two tasks, it was past sunrise, so I capped my ML for the walk back to my intended spot, near a swamp where I had spooked a couple unidentified deer the prior morning. The leaves were quiet, thanks to an overnight soaking rain, and I was headed into the wind. I had not gone far, when I noticed the doe off to my left, standing broadside, unobstructed, about 25 yards away. My father in law, who does not hunt but had been up for a while, heard the shot and went outside. I heard him yell "did you get one?" and I replied "I think so". While I was looking where she had stood for hair or blood, I heard him yell "Over here" He found her piled up in a little clearing behind his barn. As I was gutting her, another doe ran across the back of the clearing. I did not see any antlers over the week, other than little buttons on one I flushed out a few days later while still hunting. His momma, a slightly larger doe, offered me a nice 40 yard, unobstructed, quartering away shot but I am saving my "either/or" tag for Southern zone crossbow season, or late ML.

If I were in the market today, I would take a good look at the Centerpoint Sniper 370. I see Amazon has them for $300, and I have not read any bad reviews on them. They are a compound, but that seems like a great price for a 370 fps crossbow package which includes a decent scope, quiver and 3 bolts. If NY state gives us "full inclusion" prior to next season, I will be buying one. Otherwise I am sticking with my $250, 300 fps Barnett recruit for at least one more year. I was able to kill the only deer I shot at with it, at a range of 59 yards (heart shot), with that but penetration was marginal at only 8". That extra 70 fps should provide plenty of energy for a pass thru at 60 yards. I will not be taking any shots with my current crossbow over 50 yards, and I bought a laser range-finder to help be sure of that.

My mother in law put a trail camera on the gut pile from a doe I shot last Tuesday up in the NZ (DMU 6C) with my ML. Nothing touched it from then until Sunday when they had to come home. The doe expired right behind their barn so maybe that is what kept the critters away. Every last scrap of another doe I killed up there a few years prior, at the same time of year but about a half mile from the cabin, was cleaned up by the following day. Oddly enough, I did see a lot of eagles around that year.

Does are more territorial than bucks, and control the "best" feeding and bedding areas. I always put in corn plots, which provide both of those and they are usually dominated by does. The key to holding more does on a property seems to be making the corn plots smaller, and more numerous, otherwise a cranky old doe will just take over the whole big plot for her group. Less dominant does and bucks get shoved off to the "lesser" areas. I like corn plots between 1/2 and 1-1/2 acres in size, and lots of them. If you want more does on your area, look into putting in some food plots and better cover (corn does both). My favorite time to hunt is the rut and keeping lots of does around makes that a lot better. The more does you have around, the greater the odds that some will be in heat. You might have a lot of bucks around now, but when the rut kicks off in a couple week, they will be somewhere else - after those hot does. One of the reasons I like hunting the rut is that it is usually colder then and I am primarily a meat hunter. Dealing with buck or doe carcasses, and aging them properly before processing, is a lot easier for me when it is cold out. Speaking of that, I am really enjoying the prolonged cold snap we are getting into now, with a nice fat corn-fed doe out hanging in my garage. She should be aged perfect for processing by this Saturday. The stainless steel probed thermometer that I stuck in the arrow hole in her front shoulder has been reading a constant 40 degrees since yesterday evening and it is not supposed to break 50 until Saturday. I love not having to skin them right away and place the half's in an old refrigerator for a week to age.