WNYBuckHunter

See how long you can hold a crossbow on target without a rest, then get back to me.

It is not. It has the same effective range, and hits with comparable KE as a vertical bow. The only difference is how quickly you can become proficient with it. They do not hit much harder than a compound, you can easily do the math and see for yourself. Ill make it easy for you though, a crossbow shooting 350 fps with a 420-grain arrow generates 114 foot-pounds of kinetic energy. A compound shooting a 350-grain arrow at 350 fps generates 95 foot-pounds of kinetic energy. Thats not much of a difference, and its only because the crossbow arrow weighs more. If you look at professional shooters, the vertical bow guys are more accurate than their crossbow counterparts. You can compare score sheets of the top shooters in each class.

Thats the only difference though, and thats my whole point.

Yes, they wound differently, there is a larger margin of error with a gun, and you can punch through bone, etc much easier. You would take a neck shot on a deer with a bow or crossbow? I wouldnt. I will with a gun though. I dont even think about any of those things shooting my compound, practice makes it second nature. I think more about making sure my limbs are clear of everything, and thats with both my compund and crossbow. Very few of my setups have a rest, I dont generally use one unless Im sighting my crossbow in. When pulling up on a deer with my crossbow, its about the same amount of movement as when I draw my compound, maybe even more.

I live up in the higher elevations in the area, and we dont have much snow left, but the ground is muddy and sloppy as all get out.

Ive said multiple times, that a crossbow is easier to become proficient with. In a hunting situation, the difference between someone that is proficient with a bow and someone that is proficient with a crossbow, is minimal.

I am just as confident inside of 45 yards with my compound bow as I am with my crossbow. I actually practice at longer distances with my compound than I do with my crossbow. There are plenty of shots That I would take with a gun at any distance that I wouldnt with any archery equipment, because they kill in 2 completely different ways, but maybe thats just me.

No, Im not fine with that, I want to see all archery equipment open in archery season. Thats it. No firearms, no airguns, etc. I am not skirting around anything, crossbows are only easier to be proficient with, in a hunting scenario, its not much different than a vertical bow. I hunt with both, have killed with both, so I can speak from experience. People pick them up for many reasons, one of which being what I just said, they are easier to learn to use. Again, Im not talking about coddling kids, Im saying that it makes no sense to force them to use the hardest weapon first. You know the old saying that you have to walk before you run? Same thing. Id be willing to bet that when you do have kids, youll change your tune. Only then will you understand how many things kids have going on, and how easy it is for them to lose focus on something that they do not get a taste of success with. My daughter has been interested in hunting since she was very small, started going with me when she is 4. Shes been shooting bows since she was 7, and is a pretty darn good shot. She has been, and still is, nervous about wounding a deer with her bow. She knows what my experiences have been bow hunting, and knows that there have been a few times where I wounded a deer for various reasons. She would feel awful and most likely give up hunting all together if that was her first experience. In the 3 years that she has been bow hunting, shes had 1 shot at a deer, and she shot under it. Her nervousness about wounding one keeps her interest lower, and makes her not want to go as often as she would if she had more confidence in not wounding one. Now I know, she would have more confidence if she got out there more, and I try to get her to without pushing her into it. I will say that this year she has been much more willing to go out with her rifle than with her bow, because she has way more confidence with it. She was also more willing to go out with the crossbow than she was with her bow, again, because of more confidence. My point is, that even a kid that has the drive to hunt, has grown up with it and all of that, still could lose interest in the sport because they are forced into the hardest method first. Speaking from experience with both weapons, you are flat out wrong about the amount of effort it takes to get within 40 yards of a deer. What weapon you are carrying means nothing in that regard. Nothing is being taken personally, were just having a discussion that we dont agree with each other on. Its all good.

I hunt with both, have killed good bucks with both. I have shot deer from 5 to 40 yards with my vertical bow, 15 to 30 yards with the crossbow. If you think crossbow hunting is much different from bow hunting, then you have no idea what you are talking about. The only difference while you are hunting is not having to draw with the deer there. You still have to get the crossbow up and on target without the deer seeing you while its within 40 yards though. Its not some magically easy weapon to hunt with, and its nowhere close to gun hunting.

For me, it was to get more time in the woods. When I started out I had low end equipment. Anyone that knows me, knows that Im a bit of a gear junkie though, so eventually I upgraded to some pretty good stuff. Not super high end though, Im too cheap for that haha.

But did most people ever truly value that stuff? Back in the day, they were using what equipment was the latest and greatest at that time.

So just so you know, the vast majority of private land that I hunt is just as pressured, or even more pressured than any state land I have ever hunted during bow season. I have alot of experience hunting multiple tracts of state land, during all seasons. We have alot of guys that have permission to hunt the farms that I do. We have small game hunters, guys that run coon hounds at night, the landowners walking the property and riding horses, multiple groups of hunters that dont stick to any game plan, farmers working the fields, etc. Most private land that I have had experience with, isnt all that some people make it out to be. If you arent a good hunter on these places, you arent going to be successful. I usually get a few cracks at decent bucks each year, but Im in the minority at those farms. Most of the guys dont see them, and if they do, its from a long ways off. Why? Because I put the time and work in. Does that make me any better than anyone else hunting there? Nope. Do I get pissed if one of the other guys ends up shooting a buck that Im after? Nope. Has that happened? Multiple times, and most of those have not been due to those guys putting in the time and work that I do. We also have people that are new to hunting, and make lots of mistakes, and previous gun only people that are now toting crossbows around the place. Ive seen two different things happen so far with crossbows, either people new to archery hunting improve their skills and become better hunters, or they say the hell with it and go back to gun only because of their lack of success. As far as kids go, thats not at all what I said. Go back and re-read it. Your "tough" sentiment is that kind that has been portrayed for decades, and where has it gotten us? Hunter numbers are in decline, and have been for some time now. Do you honestly think that putting a crossbow in someones hands is going to guarantee them a deer? You really think that the successful crossbow folks work any less at getting within 40 yards of a deer than you do? If you do, you are being ignorant about it. Do you have kids? If so, how old are they, and do they hunt?

But why do you care what type of archery equipment anyone else uses? How would it affect your hunting? Why would full inclusion be a bad thing? Also, NYS starts kids out ass backwards. They put the toughest hunting implement in their hands first, so most kids end up with at least 2 years of eating tags if they start right away. How in the hell does that make sense? You wonder why so many kids dont stick with it, well, that right there is part of it. We need to be doing things to up new hunter recruitment, not puff our chests out like a bunch of wanna be Billy bad asses. Keep on doing that crap, and eventually there wont be any more hunting.

You just proved Biz right...

No, what I stated were two reasons that are facts (it would give opportunity to more people to hunt during bow season and crossbow hunters would have to take the archery course), not opinions. The only opinion part are that they would be positive things. What I asked you was to give some reasons why inclusion would be a negative thing, not what parts of a crossbow dont you like.

Yes, thats the difference.

You are leaving out parts of the "crossbow guys" definition of archery.... Limbs storing energy which is transferred to a string which then transfers the energy to the firing of an arrow tipped with the proper broadhead = archery Air propulsion of an arrow = airgun I have no problem with airguns being legalized and added to firearms season.

So those are your opinions, which you are more than welcome to have, but again I ask, why would inclusion be a bad thing? I gave you two fact based positives, you gave me a couple of your opinions about crossbows. BTW, nothing illegal about adding a scope to a compound bow (yes, they do make them), and as long as you have the permit, you can add a draw lock to a bow in NY.

Sure as hell does

Finally, something concerning full inclusion that Belo and I agree on!!!!

Easy, it gives more people more time in the woods, and making crossbow hunters go through the archery class is a positive. Now, tell us all why it would be such a bad thing.

I shoot both, and find that each has its own set of challenges, as well as challenges that are shared between them. The biggest difference is that a crossbow is easier to become proficient with. Why is that a bad thing?

As far as I know, you cannot put any type of stock on a pistol in NY, but I may be wrong.

My Bat-abilities are genetic apparently

If you really want to see how bad they spook, use video mode. I used to hang my cams like most guys do, about 4 feet up with a strap, and then I started using video mode on them. What I saw was crazy. Anytime I had deer look at the cam, and even sometimes when they didnt, Id see them turn inside out pretty quickly. Not all deer did that, but the vast majority did. I changed my strategy a few years ago, I hardly ever get deer looking at them or spooking from them anymore. Heres my strategy with cams. 1 - Black Flash. I cant stress this one enough, red IR cams are ok, but deer see them when they trigger. I actually think white flash cams probably spook less deer than red IR cams do. A white flash is probably thought of as lightning or something like that to a deer. A sudden glow that they can see, well, nothing natural about that. I prefer to stay away from both issues, so invisible flash it is. 2 - Put them up high. I put my cams at around 7 feet up on average. I use homemade screw in mounts that are fully adjustable and just angle them down. Having them lower makes for better looking pictures, but Im not looking to win any photo contests, Im looking to see what type of activity is going on, and get an idea of the bucks in the area. 3 - Location. I try to keep all of my cams in spots where I can check them without ever setting my feet on the ground. I like to drive my ATV or tractor up to them, swap the card, and leave as quickly as possible. The less disturbance, and scent left behind, the better. If theres a spot I want a cam thats not all that easy to get to, I either check it very infrequently, or I go with a cell cam, like I did this year. I will actually be switching all of the cams on the peoperty I own to Cuddeback black flash Cuddelink cams this coming year. The only time Ill have to physically go to them will be when the batteries need swapped out. 4 - Dont use straps. Think about it for a second, the straps are cloth, cloth holds scent longer than a hard, non-porous material. As I said above, I use screw in brackets and python locks where I feel they are needed. 5 - Let them sit outside. Before I ever take a camera out into the woods, I let it sit outside on the deck for a week or so. I dont turn it on, I just let it air out so to speak. I also put the mount and Python lock out there with it. Before I head out to put it in the woods, it goes into a plastic bag until I get to the spot its going to be hung. When i hang it, it gets sprayed down with scent killer spray just for good measure. 6 - Dont check them too much. 2 weeks is about as frequently as I check my regular cams unless its during the season, then I only check them when Im in that spot to hunt.