Study: Whitetail Deer in Central New York - An alternative to Antler restriction

[adk3006]

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

There is a reason why Ohio has quality hunting on a much higher scale. Ohio's DNR is heads and tails above every imagineable state env. agency in the country...with only Iowa coming in, in a not-so-close second (IMO, of course). I don't understand why people who want change feel the need to reinvent the wheel when there's an "as perfect as possible" version that is readily adoptable. Follow Ohio's deer management system, and life will be great. They should simply pitch Ohio's program.

Choking down OBR, a shorter gun season, etc. has the same odds as passing OBR and width criterion. And, safe to say, Ohio's been able to demonstrate success on a statewide scale...their system is proven.

If you like Ohio's management system, quit hunting in New York State and go hunt Ohio!  Don't forget to bring your wallet either.$$$$$

Ohio is still cheap to hunt. Plenty of public land with good hunting. Why would you tell someone that would like the system here to improve that they should move rather than try and make a difference?

I never said a thing about him moving.  I said if he likes the way Ohio manages there deer and dislikes the way NY manages there deer then Ohio would probably be better hunting for his needs.

[phade]

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

There is a reason why Ohio has quality hunting on a much higher scale. Ohio's DNR is heads and tails above every imagineable state env. agency in the country...with only Iowa coming in, in a not-so-close second (IMO, of course). I don't understand why people who want change feel the need to reinvent the wheel when there's an "as perfect as possible" version that is readily adoptable. Follow Ohio's deer management system, and life will be great. They should simply pitch Ohio's program.

Choking down OBR, a shorter gun season, etc. has the same odds as passing OBR and width criterion. And, safe to say, Ohio's been able to demonstrate success on a statewide scale...their system is proven.

If you like Ohio's management system, quit hunting in New York State and go hunt Ohio!  Don't forget to bring your wallet either.$$$$$

You may want to re-read. In reference to the group's proposal, I never said..."I, me, we,".....I said "they"...which last I remember from school, meant a group that "I" was not a part of. My only insertion was my opinion of Ohio's system, and the relative lack of awareness of developing a "system" that likely isn't as good as what is already available for adoption.

That said, Ohio should be the state all other state's look to, to manage their deer. They balance biology, hunters, and finances. They balance the trio perfectly.

And, one of the best counter points to your lovely statement...ever look at the cost of an out-of-state license for Ohio vs. NY. Bet you can't guess which one costs more to deer hunt a season (bow/gun/mz)?

From what I read "Follow Ohio's deer managment and life will be great", this sure sounded like you want all of us hunters in NY to do as Ohio does.  Who would life be great for?  Oh yes, all the guys that think hunting is about how much rack a buck has.  I have no idea of license fees in Ohio but good luck finding prime land in prime deer country in Ohio for a reasonable price.

I care nothing about this being a rack issue. I'm talking about the grand perspective. One buck, you get to choose the size. You want a dink and want meat...go for it. You want to hold out for a monster...go for it. The bottom line is that Ohio gives sportsmen the choice of using their tag on any buck, properly manages does, performs habitat improvement on public lands for better quality deer hunting, charges fees accordingly without high license costs, welcomes out-of-state hunters and their economy, and land prices are comprarable to what we have here. Tell me how that equates to the Ohio DNR managing for big bucks alone? They got smart and said, let's manage the whole thing right, and everything else will fall into place. Not to mention, they allow crossbows throughout the season. And, they have mandatory check stations for REAL biological data gathering.

For the record, I'm against AR and width criterion. Notice that Ohio has neither, except the legal buck measurement similar to what we have (3" etc.). Again, tell me how that equates to rack google eyes?

NY's DEC is screwed. They have financial issues, have leadership handcuffs (Grannis being fired), are reactive rather than proactive with their DMP approach (hence the cut a few years back well AFTER the overharvest occurred), have screwed up boundary units, have one of the worst tag reporting systems in country, a system that will allow you to apply for DMPs in a unit where they are not available (try it and see what happens...). The biologists are restrained by political issues, and can't manage as they would prefer, and the state has a terrible reputations for being close to the leaderboard in skewed age harvests (although that's personal choice to some degree).

You tell me what's the better option?

I hunt in one of the best WMUs in the entire state, as do some here. Is it all bad? No. But, the upside and lack of downside for sending our DEC personnel to Ohio to learn the ropes and adopt their system is a no brainer.

[phade]

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

There is a reason why Ohio has quality hunting on a much higher scale. Ohio's DNR is heads and tails above every imagineable state env. agency in the country...with only Iowa coming in, in a not-so-close second (IMO, of course). I don't understand why people who want change feel the need to reinvent the wheel when there's an "as perfect as possible" version that is readily adoptable. Follow Ohio's deer management system, and life will be great. They should simply pitch Ohio's program.

Choking down OBR, a shorter gun season, etc. has the same odds as passing OBR and width criterion. And, safe to say, Ohio's been able to demonstrate success on a statewide scale...their system is proven.

If you like Ohio's management system, quit hunting in New York State and go hunt Ohio!  Don't forget to bring your wallet either.$$$$$

Ohio is still cheap to hunt. Plenty of public land with good hunting. Why would you tell someone that would like the system here to improve that they should move rather than try and make a difference?

I never said a thing about him moving.  I said if he likes the way Ohio manages there deer and dislikes the way NY manages there deer then Ohio would probably be better hunting for his needs.

Let me be clear about this...it's not the state. It's the system. Granted, it's from Ohio....but it's not the state that makes the system work. It's the system.

It seems clear you want things unchanged? That's perfectly fine, as everyone has their opinion. I feel Ohio's deer management system is superior to what we have in NY and bringing it here would improve hunting (not rack size....talking access, finances, biology, quality of experience, etc.) on a grand scale.

Best of luck to you this season.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

My long post on page one. just seems to me that some of their conclusions don't make sense

Well to you maybe they don't .. to me they do.

So if they make sense to you they are not open for discussion? Figures...some one sees an issue with statistics.....and you just choose to believe and not debate....so much for your spirited debate comment

[TheHunter]

My long post on page one. just seems to me that some of their conclusions don't make sense

Well to you maybe they don't .. to me they do.

So if they make sense to you they are not open for discussion? Figures...some one sees an issue with statistics.....and you just choose to believe and not debate....so much for your spirited debate comment

Where did he say its not open for discussion? Stop drumming up this BS.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

It isnt BS NY...I have asked him to comment on the points I brought up that I found inconsistent in the presentation and he won't respond other than...he believes it all...maybe you would like to take a shot at them

[WNYBuckHunter]

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio. Ohio.

There is a reason why Ohio has quality hunting on a much higher scale. Ohio's DNR is heads and tails above every imagineable state env. agency in the country...with only Iowa coming in, in a not-so-close second (IMO, of course). I don't understand why people who want change feel the need to reinvent the wheel when there's an "as perfect as possible" version that is readily adoptable. Follow Ohio's deer management system, and life will be great. They should simply pitch Ohio's program.

Choking down OBR, a shorter gun season, etc. has the same odds as passing OBR and width criterion. And, safe to say, Ohio's been able to demonstrate success on a statewide scale...their system is proven.

If you like Ohio's management system, quit hunting in New York State and go hunt Ohio!  Don't forget to bring your wallet either.$$$$$

Ohio is still cheap to hunt. Plenty of public land with good hunting. Why would you tell someone that would like the system here to improve that they should move rather than try and make a difference?

I never said a thing about him moving.  I said if he likes the way Ohio manages there deer and dislikes the way NY manages there deer then Ohio would probably be better hunting for his needs.

You said he should stop hunting NY and hunt OH instead, is that not equivalent to moving your hunting area? You are obviously just spouting blind feelings instead of facts. You even admit to not even knowing how much it would cost to hunt in OH right after you said to bring your wallet.

How easy do you think it is to find "prime land in prime deer country" in NY? Let me tell you, as a resident of the Fingerlakes region, which is about the most prime whitetail land you will find in NY, its not easy at all and a lease costs money. Its no different in Ohio other than the fact that their system is geared toward hunters having a more quality hunting experience rather than just a "your lucky to have an experience" like in NY. Its not all about the rack anyhow, its about retention of participants. Other, more properly managed states are not having hunters dropping out of their ranks at a rate like we are. Face it, NY is not a hunting destination for most. Nobody wants to come here to hunt young deer that get blasted away at for a month with guns. If we dont change that, eventually we are not going to have enough of a hunter base to make a difference in influencing state policies regarding our sport. We live in a very liberal state, mostly controlled by a bunch of people down in NYC that could care less about hunting. What do you think would happen to our sport if left to those that dont care for or about it?

I dont support mandatory AR, as I dont think its what will work in the long run. The only things that will really make a difference (just in my opinion) would be to go to a similar style of management as Ohio has. Short, spread out gun seasons, allow Bow and Crossbow to hunt the entire season, and only allow 1 buck per year. Keep the DMP system similar to what it is now and institute mandatory reporting on each tag (not just each kill) before you can purchase the next year's license with no exceptions. Let timber companies into state forests (for a fee to the DEC) and hold them responsible if they dont follow the rules.

I dont understand why NY cant just do what works and has been proven to work, rather than just try this program and try that program.

[burmjohn]

Excellent post... I would be in support of such a program if NY considered it.  The reason I support AR's is because its something already in place, the only thing in place,  and I have seen first hand how its working in my area. 

[steve863]

How easy do you think it is to find "prime land in prime deer country" in NY? Let me tell you, as a resident of the Fingerlakes region, which is about the most prime whitetail land you will find in NY, its not easy at all and a lease costs money. Its no different in Ohio other than the fact that their system is geared toward hunters having a more quality hunting experience rather than just a "your lucky to have an experience" like in NY. Its not all about the rack anyhow, its about retention of participants. Other, more properly managed states are not having hunters dropping out of their ranks at a rate like we are. Face it, NY is not a hunting destination for most. Nobody wants to come here to hunt young deer that get blasted away at for a month with guns. If we dont change that, eventually we are not going to have enough of a hunter base to make a difference in influencing state policies regarding our sport. We live in a very liberal state, mostly controlled by a bunch of people down in NYC that could care less about hunting. What do you think would happen to our sport if left to those that dont care for or about it?

Do you really think hunters are dropping out of hunting in NYS because the hunting experience is not a quality one??  I HIGHLY doubt that.  I would say the biggest reason is lack of available private land to hunt, followed by old hunters dying out and not many young people taking it up.  You make this state a "quality" state and you will have even MORE resident hunters without private land to hunt.  Only the highest bidders will have land to hunt while everyone else will be left with public land that will be so overhunted that it will pretty much be worthless.  You think hunter numbers are dwindling now in NYS, just wait until a scenario like you suggest would come to fruition!    Every state is unique.  Just because hunting is run a certain way in Ohio, don't mean it would work in NY.  The vast majority of hunters in NY are gun hunters.  Shorten their season like they have in Ohio and you will see license sales plummet.  Yeah, sure many will continue to hunt, but those that are luke warm about it and there are quite a few of them out there, will surely not shell out the money for a license then.  Why should they?? 

[steve863]

And I should also mention lack of time as a huge factor in hunter decline.  Give them even less legal hunting time available and tell me why should they even purchase a hunting license??

[Fairgame]

It is sad when any type of change for better hunting is proposed there is always others to knock it down.  I being pro AR am for ARs cause its all we have in our area as far as something that is working for a better hunting experience.  Is it the answer to all? No, but it works cause it is way better than what we had.  For those that feel that it is all about us and not for the deer herd just read what you have been writing.  "The first time hunter cant shoot a spike."  "Some people can't find the time."  "Why should someone tell me what I can or can't shoot."  These are the real selfish reasons on why we cant have change.  It's not the guy who wants a rack who is being selfish, but the person who refuses all types of change reguardless of what they are cause that is what they have been doing their whole time hunting. 

I believe that if we do get a better management plan that will produce a better hunting experience it will bring in more hunters that would be making the DEC more money.  New York IMO needs change to keep the number of hunters they have and to create a better hunting experience. 

The whole 3 inch legal buck thing is a bunch of crap!  Put a 3 inch buck broadside  and put a 140 inch ten point broadside at 20 yards in front of you and see which one you would shoot.

[WNYBuckHunter]

How would anyone have less time to hunt? Ohio has a longer season overall, just not as much gun season. If you dont shoot a bow and want more time in the woods, pick up a crossbow, they arent that hard to learn to shoot.

I just plain do not agree with your doom and gloom scenario. You dont hear about problems like that in Ohio, why would you hear about them here? There is already a shortage of private land to hunt in NY for free, whats the difference? Public land hunting is great in Ohio from what I have heard from every person Ive talked to that hunts out there. Look at other states (Like OH, IA, IL, etc) hunter retention rates, then look at ours and tell me what you find. Like I said, you wont find the numbers dropping like ours do (fast).

Steve, you can pound your chest about how great NY is all you want, and how much you dont care about the quality of the deer you hunt, but there is obvious room for improvement and something has to be done before our sport dwindles down to nothing.

[Fairgame]

AMEN!

[phade]

How easy do you think it is to find "prime land in prime deer country" in NY? Let me tell you, as a resident of the Fingerlakes region, which is about the most prime whitetail land you will find in NY, its not easy at all and a lease costs money. Its no different in Ohio other than the fact that their system is geared toward hunters having a more quality hunting experience rather than just a "your lucky to have an experience" like in NY. Its not all about the rack anyhow, its about retention of participants. Other, more properly managed states are not having hunters dropping out of their ranks at a rate like we are. Face it, NY is not a hunting destination for most. Nobody wants to come here to hunt young deer that get blasted away at for a month with guns. If we dont change that, eventually we are not going to have enough of a hunter base to make a difference in influencing state policies regarding our sport. We live in a very liberal state, mostly controlled by a bunch of people down in NYC that could care less about hunting. What do you think would happen to our sport if left to those that dont care for or about it?

Do you really think hunters are dropping out of hunting in NYS because the hunting experience is not a quality one??  I HIGHLY doubt that.  I would say the biggest reason is lack of available private land to hunt, followed by old hunters dying out and not many young people taking it up.  You make this state a "quality" state and you will have even MORE resident hunters without private land to hunt.  Only the highest bidders will have land to hunt while everyone else will be left with public land that will be so overhunted that it will pretty much be worthless.  You think hunter numbers are dwindling now in NYS, just wait until a scenario like you suggest would come to fruition!    Every state is unique.  Just because hunting is run a certain way in Ohio, don't mean it would work in NY.  The vast majority of hunters in NY are gun hunters.  Shorten their season like they have in Ohio and you will see license sales plummet.  Yeah, sure many will continue to hunt, but those that are luke warm about it and there are quite a few of them out there, will surely not shell out the money for a license then.  Why should they??

New York has more public land than most eastern states. Lease prices are about the same in Ohio vs. NY for similar quality habitat, as is acreage costs. The vast majority of hunters in any state are gun hunters, so that statement means nothing. Luke warm hunters only typically hunt the first week, weekend, or day of the season. Hunter participation drops as the gun season progresses, so luke warm hunters don't really lose time they would otherwise not spend in the woods.

Again, refer to Ohio and their ability to recruit youths. Much better than our system. A big portion of the problem was our age restriction, which is still amongst the most restrcitive in the country even after the lowered age.

Improving the quality experience retains hunters, recruits new hunters, and reinforces all the positives about hunting. Ohio performs habitat management on public land to maxmize the experience for public land hunters. I can think of one instance where the DEC even allows this to happen (and the pheasants group that does it, does it on their own dime)...otherwise, they don't lift a finger to maxmize Joe Public's experience.

Quality hunting experience includes access. On top of the work the DNR does, they create PROGRAMS to provide access to private lands. Right now, there's a Web site you can go to, enter your hunter info, and it'll be sent to PRIVATE FARMS, where farmers can offer access in exhcange for controlling the deer population (hunting). Brillant idea, eh? I sure don't see the DEC doing anything even close to this.

Keep saying nothing's broken. And pretty soon broken will turn into dead - as in our hunting quality.

[steve863]

You say that the retention rate is way better in OH, IA and IL, why don't you also point out that PA has lost over 200,000 hunters in the last 10 years?  So why did hunters in PA quit??  Heck, PA even adapted AR's to make it a better quality state, so what the heck happened there?  Your suggestion that gun hunters take up crossbows has got to be the joke of the week!  Exactly why would any gun hunter give up their gun for that contraption??  If crossbows are made legal during bow season in NY, it will have a mighty little effect on gun hunters going out and spending close to $1000 on a weapon that is NO better than an ordinary bow.  I'm sorry, but making crossbows legal will have a zero effect on hunter retention OR on new hunters taking up the sport.

[burmjohn]

Hah, then why legalize crossbows in the first place if no one is going to use them.

[phade]

You say that the retention rate is way better in OH, IA and IL, why don't you also point out that PA has lost over 200,000 hunters in the last 10 years? So why did hunters in PA quit??  Heck, PA even adapted AR's to make it a better quality state, so what the heck happened there?  Your suggestion that gun hunters take up crossbows has got to be the joke of the week!  Exactly why would any gun hunter give up their gun for that contraption??  If crossbows are made legal during bow season in NY, it will have a mighty little effect on gun hunters going out and spending close to $1000 on a weapon that is NO better than an ordinary bow.  I'm sorry, but making crossbows legal will have a zero effect on hunter retention OR on new hunters taking up the sport.

Out of OH, IA, and IL, how may have defined AR? Answer me that? That's why PA isn't in the discussion....because they manage poorly, and a variety of other reasons.

I'm not a huge crossbow proponent, but this is simply false. NY has a high bowhunting population...about 220k IIRC. More bowhunters stop hunting because of age/physical stature than any other issue. Crossbows will help hunters (regardless of draw loc use) hunt longer (retention) into their elder years. Most states that allow crossbows throughout also have younger average age of entering hunters.

[steve863]

Hah, then why legalize crossbows in the first place if no one is going to use them.

Dang, you fellas really must be living in fantasy land if you think crossbows are going to have any significant effect on hunter numbers.  You can keep dreaming on like you guys do with most things, I guess! LOL

[Fairgame]

Crossbows are in the wrong season right now to bring in new hunters.  I'm not a big crossbow person, but I feel they are in the wrong season due to them being so inferior to the gun.  If we want more hunters staying and joining put them in the archery season and shorten the gun.  See what a difference it would bring.  Guaranteed more hunters than the prior year.  The older hunter would still be in the woods during the bow/crossbow season.

[steve863]

You say that the retention rate is way better in OH, IA and IL, why don't you also point out that PA has lost over 200,000 hunters in the last 10 years?  So why did hunters in PA quit??  Heck, PA even adapted AR's to make it a better quality state, so what the heck happened there?  Your suggestion that gun hunters take up crossbows has got to be the joke of the week!  Exactly why would any gun hunter give up their gun for that contraption??  If crossbows are made legal during bow season in NY, it will have a mighty little effect on gun hunters going out and spending close to $1000 on a weapon that is NO better than an ordinary bow.  I'm sorry, but making crossbows legal will have a zero effect on hunter retention OR on new hunters taking up the sport.

I'm not a huge crossbow proponent, but this is simply false. NY has a high bowhunting population...about 220k IIRC. More bowhunters stop hunting because of age/physical stature than any other issue. Crossbows will help hunters (regardless of draw loc use) hunt longer (retention) into their elder years. Most states that allow crossbows throughout also have younger average age of entering hunters.

PA is a fail for many reasons, not simply AR. And, remember, I'm against AR.

Yeah, and a substantial percentage of NYS bowhunters aren't even in favor of crossbows during bow season.  So you think these guys will do an about face when they get old and lame and go out and get that crossbow?  Again, I HIGHLY doubt it. 

[Fairgame]

Shorten the gun season and see how many people pick up the crossbow.  Many that just gun hunt will be hunting with a crossbow during archery even the ones that cant draw a bow back. youngsters and the elderly

[Fairgame]

If you shorten the gun season and make a longer bow/crossbow. it would make bow hunters a longer season and gun hunters a chance to be in the woods when its quieter.  Take some and loose some

[burmjohn]

The problem is, a lot people *think* the minority want to change how we manage deer in NY (AR, QDM, 1 buck, shorter season, etc). 

However, the reality is the majority wants a change.

[phade]

You say that the retention rate is way better in OH, IA and IL, why don't you also point out that PA has lost over 200,000 hunters in the last 10 years?  So why did hunters in PA quit??  Heck, PA even adapted AR's to make it a better quality state, so what the heck happened there?  Your suggestion that gun hunters take up crossbows has got to be the joke of the week!  Exactly why would any gun hunter give up their gun for that contraption??  If crossbows are made legal during bow season in NY, it will have a mighty little effect on gun hunters going out and spending close to $1000 on a weapon that is NO better than an ordinary bow.  I'm sorry, but making crossbows legal will have a zero effect on hunter retention OR on new hunters taking up the sport.

I'm not a huge crossbow proponent, but this is simply false. NY has a high bowhunting population...about 220k IIRC. More bowhunters stop hunting because of age/physical stature than any other issue. Crossbows will help hunters (regardless of draw loc use) hunt longer (retention) into their elder years. Most states that allow crossbows throughout also have younger average age of entering hunters.

PA is a fail for many reasons, not simply AR. And, remember, I'm against AR.

Yeah, and a substantial percentage of NYS bowhunters aren't even in favor of crossbows during bow season.  So you think these guys will do an about face when they get old and lame and go out and get that crossbow?  Again, I HIGHLY doubt it.

Where'd you get the substantial percentage? NYB?

[WNYBuckHunter]

You say that the retention rate is way better in OH, IA and IL, why don't you also point out that PA has lost over 200,000 hunters in the last 10 years?  So why did hunters in PA quit??  Heck, PA even adapted AR's to make it a better quality state, so what the heck happened there?  Your suggestion that gun hunters take up crossbows has got to be the joke of the week!  Exactly why would any gun hunter give up their gun for that contraption??  If crossbows are made legal during bow season in NY, it will have a mighty little effect on gun hunters going out and spending close to $1000 on a weapon that is NO better than an ordinary bow.  I'm sorry, but making crossbows legal will have a zero effect on hunter retention OR on new hunters taking up the sport.

I'm not a huge crossbow proponent, but this is simply false. NY has a high bowhunting population...about 220k IIRC. More bowhunters stop hunting because of age/physical stature than any other issue. Crossbows will help hunters (regardless of draw loc use) hunt longer (retention) into their elder years. Most states that allow crossbows throughout also have younger average age of entering hunters.

PA is a fail for many reasons, not simply AR. And, remember, I'm against AR.

Yeah, and a substantial percentage of NYS bowhunters aren't even in favor of crossbows during bow season.  So you think these guys will do an about face when they get old and lame and go out and get that crossbow?  Again, I HIGHLY doubt it.

What in the name of god are you talking about? If someone like to hunt archery season and can no longer draw back a bow for whatever reason, why wouldnt they go to a crossbow. Also, if NY shortened gun season to a week, if those gun hunters want to get in the woods, they will pick up a crossbow. Id be willing to bet that many more would do that rather than give up hunting all together. Again, more doom and gloom that just doesnt add up.

Come on steve, rather than cherry pick or throw stats out there from other poorly managed states or make snide remarks, why dont you answer some of the questions being presented to you?