AR question

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I have hunted the Catskill region for a LONG time, and have yet to meet the honest hunter who sees numerous bucks while out hunting during a season year after year. Typically if you let one pass and it don't matter how big or small he is, it may be the last one you will see in the season. This still holds for even the regions that have had the AR's for a few years now. If this wasn't the case we'd be seeing way more of the AR supporters here posting pictures of some of these nice bucks they claim are walking around. All I see is a few game cam photos and hardly any photos with hunters posing behind these big dead bucks. LOL In my opinion a lot of hot air is being blown around on how much AR's have improved things.

You might want to look at the last few years harvest posts. I believe you will see a few taken in an AR zone and this hot air will tell ya its workin just fine in the areas i hunt. Hope it just keeps gettin better!!

[Doc]

I often wonder, now that rifles are being used almost everywhere, just how easy it would be at long distances to look at a buck's rack at a couple hundred yards and get the two different antlers mixed together thinking that one of the tines on the far side was really on the near side. You know what I mean? There's a lot of times in the various lighting conditions and all where a broadside rack might fool you into thinking that there is an adequate number of tines on one of the antlers. It sure could cause a nasty situation if you walked up to your buck and had a big surprise waiting for you.

Kind of nice how they keep adding new laws giving you a much better chance of being made into criminal without any evil intentions what-so-ever. You think the CO will cut you a break because you made a mistake? I guess you can avoid that situation by only shooting the ones that are 30 or 50 yards away, or maybe just shoot the wobbly old sway-back, toothless bucks .... lol.

[nyantler]

I often wonder, now that rifles are being used almost everywhere, just how easy it would be at long distances to look at a buck's rack at a couple hundred yards and get the two different antlers mixed together thinking that one of the tines on the far side was really on the near side. You know what I mean? There's a lot of times in the various lighting conditions and all where a broadside rack might fool you into thinking that there is an adequate number of tines on one of the antlers. It sure could cause a nasty situation if you walked up to your buck and had a big surprise waiting for you.

Kind of nice how they keep adding new laws giving you a much better chance of being made into criminal without any evil intentions what-so-ever. You think the CO will cut you a break because you made a mistake? I guess you can avoid that situation by only shooting the ones that are 30 or 50 yards away, or maybe just shoot the wobbly old sway-back, toothless bucks .... lol.

I look at it differently in that I think the laws are designed to make hunters take a better look at what they're shooting at before pulling the trigger... if you are not sure, don't shoot... I don't feel it is the laws fault that hunters refuse to take the time to make a proper identification or are unwilling to let a deer walk to make sure the law is not broken. It's become to common place to blame someone other than oneself for failing to do the right thing. Just because you have a gun that can shoot 200 yards, doesn't mean you should be shooting something that you can't identify. The remedy for your senario is not to do away with the law... the remedy would be get a scope if you want to shoot that far or just don't shoot that far. There will be other opportunities. Definitely not worth breaking the law over. I know you meant that there are those out there that will make the "mistake" you discribed... my point is that it is not an accident or a mistake, just plain irresponsibilty. I feel it would happen regardless of AR's and that it has happened before current AR's with the original 3inch law. I seems to be built into some hunters DNA.. regardless of the law.

Edited September 13, 2012 by nyantler

[steve863]

You might want to look at the last few years harvest posts. I believe you will see a few taken in an AR zone and this hot air will tell ya its workin just fine in the areas i hunt. Hope it just keeps gettin better!!

I've been on this forum practically since the beginning. Please show me these bucks??? Vast majority of the nice bucks killed by members here have been killed in non AR areas.

By the way, attached is a picture of one that was shot last season in an AR zone. It was killed by a friend of a friend of mine. Yep, a grand buck it is. In the meantime this hunter has practically seen or killed JACK in this area in the last 5 years and this guy is no slouch hunter neither. AR's, and hardly any doe permits available in the area don't leave much else for a gun hunter to kill. So AR's may have helped this buck grow big, but so would closing down the hunting season completely which honestly is just about the same as hunting in an AR areas where few to no doe permits get given out.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

NY---I honestly took my first buck not knowing it was a buck. I am sure some of it was young inexperience and dad and I had a doe tag between us. broad side walked out about 50 yards away. Stopped. eating and I dumped it. 3-1/2 " spikes layed right into the ear pockets. I was one happy camper but wouldn't have been if it had been AR. Not sure how my age would have played in since I was 17 but just trying to show...things can happen.

[nyantler]

NY---I honestly took my first buck not knowing it was a buck. I am sure some of it was young inexperience and dad and I had a doe tag between us. broad side walked out about 50 yards away. Stopped. eating and I dumped it. 3-1/2 " spikes layed right into the ear pockets. I was one happy camper but wouldn't have been if it had been AR. Not sure how my age would have played in since I was 17 but just trying to show...things can happen.

I understand that scenario without AR's.. that isn't what I was refering to... what you discribe wasn't an accident because you meant to shoot that deer and either way it turned out would have been legal. That isn't irresponsible, thats just taking a chance. If you didn't have the doe tag it would have been irresponsible, illegal and not an accident regardless of how happy of a camper you were.

You're right... things can happen... you shoot a 4 point that you shouldn't have because you didn't want to take the time to identify it properly and get caught you'll be ticketed and fined... thats what happens. I agree AR's change the game... kinda tells me hunters don't like having to be responsible sometimes or else there wouldn't be a problem with having to identify your target first. In your case... if you didn't have a buck tag would you still have shot that deer for a doe or would you have looked harder to make sure not knowing it if it was a buck? Or if you didn't have the doe tag would you still have taken the shot not knowing if it might be a doe. Thats kind of the situation you'll be in with AR's.. still having to make sure you're doing something legal. I just think it's a simple decision to make in my opinion.

[Doc]

I look at it differently in that I think the laws are designed to make hunters take a better look at what they're shooting at before pulling the trigger... if you are not sure, don't shoot... I don't feel it is the laws fault that hunters refuse to take the time to make a proper identification or are unwilling to let a deer walk to make sure the law is not broken. It's become to common place to blame someone other than oneself for failing to do the right thing. Just because you have a gun that can shoot 200 yards, doesn't mean you should be shooting something that you can't identify. The remedy for your senario is not to do away with the law... the remedy would be get a scope if you want to shoot that far or just don't shoot that far. There will be other opportunities. Definitely not worth breaking the law over. I know you meant that there are those out there that will make the "mistake" you discribed... my point is that it is not an accident or a mistake, just plain irresponsibilty. I feel it would happen regardless of AR's and that it has happened before current AR's with the original 3inch law. I seems to be built into some hunters DNA.. regardless of the law.

So now you not only have to determine it's a buck, but you have to be able to determine it is a specific kind of buck, and you do not dare use the capability of your rifle because you might mis-interpret a single deciding tine as being on the near antler when it really is on the antler behind, and you will not be able to utilize some portion of the legal shooting hours because of the lighting, And heaven help you if he shows up with a light fog that obscures the fine detail of antler tines. Of course we all know that you always get lots of time to perform all this analysis. Let's face it, at some point these laws become simply a BS feature of harrassment. Wait until somebody sets us up with antler width requirements. That is commonly considered to be the best AR for keeping harvests out of the 1.5 year age group. Then we will have to whistle at the deer to get him to turn his head toward us for spread estimation. Don't laugh, I have heard it suggested.

I will guarantee that some will definitely make a legitimate mistake in what they think they are seeing. A side view is just a tangle of tines unless you are on top of the deer. I myself have seen many deer where I have tried to count points and couldn't, simply because of the angle, and I'm sure you have too. I know we all think we are infallible, and cannot even imagine how you might mis-interpret an antler count, but personally I see it as a whole lot tougher than is being let on. The more difficult you make the laws, the more likely that real honest mistakes will happen. And every change in the laws that I see these days increases the complexity of performing what was once a fairly simple recreational activity.

But I will say one thing, if you make buck harvests complicated and difficult enough, you definitely will get older bucks. They'll live a lot longer because no one will dare pull the trigger ..... lol. Maybe that's how AR really works.

[nyantler]

So now you not only have to determine it's a buck, but you have to be able to determine it is a specific kind of buck, and you do not dare use the capability of your rifle because you might mis-interpret a single deciding tine as being on the near antler when it really is on the antler behind, and you will not be able to utilize some portion of the legal shooting hours because of the lighting, And heaven help you if he shows up with a light fog that obscures the fine detail of antler tines. Of course we all know that you always get lots of time to perform all this analysis. Let's face it, at some point these laws become simply a BS feature of harrassment. Wait until somebody sets us up with antler width requirements. That is commonly considered to be the best AR for keeping harvests out of the 1.5 year age group. Then we will have to whistle at the deer to get him to turn his head toward us for spread estimation. Don't laugh, I have heard it suggested.

I will guarantee that some will definitely make a legitimate mistake in what they think they are seeing. A side view is just a tangle of tines unless you are on top of the deer. I myself have seen many deer where I have tried to count points and couldn't, simply because of the angle. I know we all think we are infallible, and cannot even imagine how you might mis-interpret an antler count, but personally I see it as a whole lot tougher than is being let on. The more difficult you make the laws, the more likely that it will happen. And every change in the laws that I see these days increases the complexity of performing what was once a fairly simple recreational activity.

But I will say one thing, if you make buck harvests complicated and difficult enough, you definitely will get older bucks. They'll live a lot longer because no one will dare pull the trigger ..... lol. Maybe that's how AR really works.

Determining 3 points on a side is far simpler than determining a 3" antler... Nobody seems to have any problem with the 3" AR that's been in place for 100 yrs... Doc, I understand hunters are infallible... but I have a difference of opinion as to why.. I think it is basically irresponsibility. Your last statement might be right... but if getting guys to not pull the trigger sometimes gets to the goal then the law is working. I just don't see a problem with being sure of any shot that you take... I have never taken a deer I didn't mean to shoot and I never experienced a feeling of complexity by taking the time to identify fully what I was shooting at. And I still contend that it is not a "mistake" to take a deer that doesn't meet the requirements of the law.. it is irresponsible. It either is or isn't legal.. if you aren't sure.. you shouldn't shoot. I think it's very simple. I do realize that some hunters are not going to be responsible and will take an illegal deer... nothing the DEC can really do about those individuals except ticket and fine them.. that element of hunters will exist regardless of the law.

Edited September 14, 2012 by nyantler

[SteveB]

While I will only now shoot a buck I feel is at least 3.5, I hate the idea of mandatory AR.

But if it happens where I hunt, I know my thought process will be - "I'm shooting as their is no doubt this buck is legal".

It would never be - "I'm shooting as I think this buck is legal".

Know your target 100% or don't shoot.

[Doc]

Determining 3 points on a side is far simpler than determining a 3" antler... Nobody seems to have any problem with the 3" AR that's been in place for 100 yrs... Doc, I understand hunters are infallible... but I have a difference of opinion as to why.. I think it is basically irresponsibility. Your last statement might be right... but if getting guys to not pull the trigger sometimes gets to the goal then the law is working. I just don't see a problem with being sure of any shot that you take... I have never taken a deer I didn't mean to shoot and I never experienced a feeling of complexity by taking the time to identify fully what I was shooting at. And I still contend that it is not a "mistake" to take a deer that doesn't meet the requirements of the law.. it is irresponsible. It either is or isn't legal.. if you aren't sure.. you shouldn't shoot. I think it's very simple. I do realize that some hunters are not going to be responsible and will take an illegal deer... nothing the DEC can really do about those individuals except ticket and fine them.. that element of hunters will exist regardless of the law.

Absolutely, you can 100% guarantee that you don't violate an antler count restriction or any other kind of AR..... If you eliminate most of your shot opportunities and only shoot deer that are so close that it is impossible to confuse the tines of each antler. And shoot only when light conditions are absolutely perfect. And shoot only deer that far exceed the legal minimum of points. And shoot only deer that give a good display of there antlers. And have all the time in the world to study the deer for a long time before shooting. And shoot only deer that parade back and forth around you giving you a look from every angle. And most reliable of all, simply don't shoot.

Nobody will ever convince me that they were reliably able to count the points on the majority of bucks that they see in the woods ..... Nobody. Now it is time to be honest. Are you really trying to tell me that you don't believe that there will be honest bona-fide mistakes? Can you honestly say that it would really be impossible for you to make a mistake? Now, I did say to be honest. Do you believe that you have ever mis-counted tines on a buck or do you think you always get it right?

It is nice to think that every law is created with practicality included. You would like to think that regulations and laws are made with at least some thought given to practicality and general ease of compliance. And it is quite easy to say that mistakes never should happen. But here in the real world, we understand that complexity adds unintended consequences. To pass laws that promote that is in itself a bit irresponsible.

So the question is, why does every new regulation come with an incremental level of complexity? Are we trying to see just how much frustration we can throw in the face of hunters? Is this AR stuff really just a test to see how many we can lure into making illegal mistakes?

[nyantler]

Absolutely, you can 100% guarantee that you don't violate an antler count restriction or any other kind of AR..... If you eliminate most of your shot opportunities and only shoot deer that are so close that it is impossible to confuse the tines of each antler. And shoot only when light conditions are absolutely perfect. And shoot only deer that far exceed the legal minimum of points. And shoot only deer that give a good display of there antlers. And have all the time in the world to study the deer for a long time before shooting. And shoot only deer that parade back and forth around you giving you a look from every angle. And most reliable of all, simply don't shoot.

Nobody will ever convince me that they were reliably able to count the points on the majority of bucks that they see in the woods ..... Nobody. Now it is time to be honest. Are you really trying to tell me that you don't believe that there will be honest bona-fide mistakes? Can you honestly say that it would really be impossible for you to make a mistake? Now, I did say to be honest. Do you believe that you have ever mis-counted tines on a buck or do you think you always get it right?

It is nice to think that every law is created with practicality included. You would like to think that regulations and laws are made with at least some thought given to practicality and general ease of compliance. And it is quite easy to say that mistakes never should happen. But here in the real world, we understand that complexity adds unintended consequences. To pass laws that promote that is in itself a bit irresponsible.

So the question is, why does every new regulation come with an incremental level of complexity? Are we trying to see just how much frustration we can throw in the face of hunters? Is this AR stuff really just a test to see how many we can lure into making illegal mistakes?

Yeah I guess if hunters are determined to try and hunt close to the minimum there will be those that will shoot an illegal deer... but not by mistake... if you think about it 3 on a side means, a one antlered 3 pointer, a 3x1 four point, a 3x2 five point and anything above.. that leaves any doe, any spike buck one or two horned, a 2x1 three point, and a 2x2 four point that can't be taken under the new AR law... I just don't see the complexity of killing a buck that makes the cut... anything above a 5 point is legal... the trick is don't hunt close to the minimum.. but look for a substantial sized racked buck... if the idea is to protect yearlings that's the responsible thing to do... anyone with that itchy a trigger finger is putting way too much emphasis on having to kill some buck at any cost.

I'm sure we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, but sorry I just don't see the complexity... I see it as extremely simple... at least as far as the 3 on a side law is concerned...

your argument I think is more valid as point restriction increases though. My hope would be that as hunters see the benefits of protecting yearlings... greater point restrictions won't be necessary to ensure a more balanced age class of bucks.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I think it comes down to what kind of hunter a person is. The ones that are hell bent to kill anything with any kind of bone on its head are the ones that will have a problem with AR. Like it or not there are guys out there that would rather cut a finger off than to have to say to their buddies that they didnt kill a buck last year. Then those same guys would say..Oh he was in thick brush and i thought he was bigger..Or any other excuse they can come up with. Now most hunters that live in areas with low deer populations travel to different areas to fill tags. We used to do just that on letchworth years ago. If its brown its down and fill them tags!!! Then back home it was racks only. Now for me its a mature deer or no deer. I have never went without meat in the freezer. You will never make everyone happy...Including myself because i want 1 buck a year..TOTAL...You pick the weapon and 8 weeks of deer hunting total... See we all cant be happy!!!

[Doc]

the trick is don't hunt close to the minimum.. but look for a substantial sized racked buck...

And so we are really talking a defacto increase in the legal requirement as stated in law ..... just to ensure that mistakes are not made. That was one of the ways that I listed as ensuring that you never make a miscount by transposing a tine from one antler to the other. Interesting how a 3-point rule can be used to make a restriction even more restrictive. We just can't seem to restrict ourselves and our fellow hunters enough can we?

[Doc]

I think it comes down to what kind of hunter a person is......

No, it doesn't have anything to do with what kind of hunter anyone is. It has to do with creating more and more laws that are trying to make inadvertant mistakes turn into poaching. But if a hunter has decided that he wants to take a buck every year as a goal, that really is none of my business, and I wish him luck with whatever buck he chooses. And by the way, I will be the first to pat him on the back and congratulate him for whatever he gets, instead of berating what he thinks is an accomplishment. Maybe we would have a few more hunters around if we didn't spend so much time worrying about whether his success measures up to our expectations.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

No, it doesn't have anything to do with what kind of hunter anyone is. It has to do with creating more and more laws that are trying to make inadvertant mistakes turn into poaching. But if a hunter has decided that he wants to take a buck every year as a goal, that really is none of my business, and I wish him luck with whatever buck he chooses. And by the way, I will be the first to pat him on the back and congratulate him for whatever he gets, instead of berating what he thinks is an accomplishment. Maybe we would have a few more hunters around if we didn't spend so much time worrying about whether his success measures up to our expectations.

I believe that is hogwash. It will be the hunter that slams that finger on the trigger at the first sign of bone that will have the problem. I really dont care what anybody else shoots either as long as its legal. I wish i had a dime for every time i have had someone talk about a small buck they shot only to come right behind that statement with a reason why he shot it. He himself is not really proud of that buck if he has to make an excuse for killing it. But he did get to say he shot a buck!!! Thats what matters with many and thats ALL that matters with many more!!

It does have everything to do with the person doing the hunting. There are steps a hunter takes in his hunting career and the young hunters will be the ones that this hurts the most to a point. BUT there are rules in place like on letchworth that allows young hunters to take any buck they wish!!

[Doc]

I believe that is hogwash. It will be the hunter that slams that finger on the trigger at the first sign of bone that will have the problem. I really dont care what anybody else shoots either as long as its legal. I wish i had a dime for every time i have had someone talk about a small buck they shot only to come right behind that statement with a reason why he shot it. He himself is not really proud of that buck if he has to make an excuse for killing it. But he did get to say he shot a buck!!! Thats what matters with many and thats ALL that matters with many more!!

It does have everything to do with the person doing the hunting. There are steps a hunter takes in his hunting career and the young hunters will be the ones that this hurts the most to a point. BUT there are rules in place like on letchworth that allows young hunters to take any buck they wish!!

Maybe the reason that those people seemed to be apologetic about taking a small buck is because of your accusing, belittleing, and disapproving attitude. And don't be telling me about how you "really dont care what anybody else shoots either as long as its legal". I don't think there is any question in anyone's mind that the tone and content of your message says that simply isn't true. That's the problem today. We have way too many guys concerned about what other people harvest. Many of them will browbeat and belittle anyone who doesn't take a deer that they "approve" of. What a bunch of BS. I'm sure that these people would gladly drive any hunters from our ranks that refuse to abide by their standards of what is "acceptable" to harvest. And I believe that is indeed happening. That kind of arrogance has got to stop.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Maybe the reason that those people seemed to be apologetic about taking a small buck is because of your accusing, belittleing, and disapproving attitude. And don't be telling me about how you "really dont care what anybody else shoots either as long as its legal". I don't think there is any question in anyone's mind that the tone and content of your message says that simply isn't true. That's the problem today. We have way too many guys concerned about what other people harvest. Many of them will browbeat and belittle anyone who doesn't take a deer that they "approve" of. What a bunch of BS. I'm sure that these people would gladly drive any hunters from our ranks that refuse to abide by their standards of what is "acceptable" to harvest. And I believe that is indeed happening. That kind of arrogance has got to stop.

Glad you think you know me so well. We should have a drink sometime, be like old bud's. Your statement is just a joke like i said. Like maybe last year when myself and a buddy were coming up out of the bottom of letchworth opening day and came across this guy from rochester draging out a crotch horn he shot alone almost at the bottom. We saw him at 2.15 in the afternoon and he shot it at daylight. The guy was dead tired from draggin and we talked for a bit. My buddy asked him if he had hunted here before. Yup this is my second year. Well guess what.... I was not tellin him he had a ticket and probably thrown off the park for killin and buck without 3pt on a side. 2 years and dont know the rules.......Yeah right doc.....Those are the guys you are tryin to protect, HaHa , Ignorance wont cut it!!!!

[nyantler]

And so we are really talking a defacto increase in the legal requirement as stated in law ..... just to ensure that mistakes are not made. That was one of the ways that I listed as ensuring that you never make a miscount by transposing a tine from one antler to the other. Interesting how a 3-point rule can be used to make a restriction even more restrictive. We just can't seem to restrict ourselves and our fellow hunters enough can we?

I don't look at it as restricting hunters, just a change in the regulations... they happen all the time. Whether or not hunters can be responsible enough to shoot a legal deer is up to them. The 3" rule... that must really have restricted the hunters that hunted close to the rule when first imposed... trying to determine if the antler is 2 7/8" or 3 1/8"... at 100 yards I assume that would be a tough one... but the rule was put in place for a purpose... not to piss off hunters by making them look a bit harder at their target, but to protect does back in the day... now the purpose is to protect yearling bucks and the 3" rule doesn't work so that regulation has been altered to 3 points on a side, it isn't put in place to piss off hunters with more restrictions... if there are some that have a hard time identifying their target.. they'll just have to make up their mind to whether they want to take a chance or not... but whatever they choose will not be a mistake.. it will be a choice... not an accident. The rule is not ambiguos it is well defined and easy to follow if you really want to follow it. You think it makes it more difficult.. I think it's easy. We have different opinions.. what's new?? LOL

[oneidacountyhunter]

What is the point to AR?? This is an honest question and I'm not looking to start a pissing match. I don't live in AR and as I've said before I am a meat hunter. spike horn or 10 point they all taste the same to me. Whats it matter how much head gear they have

[Guns&ReligionCop]

I hunt in NEPA that now has had antler restrictions for a few years. In my experience if you can't tell what you are shooting at you shouldn't be shooting. Safety first and the quality of the shot. I understand sometimes you need to rush a shot and then ground shrinkage occurs but then you didn't truely know what you were shooting at.

[nyantler]

What is the point to AR?? This is an honest question and I'm not looking to start a pissing match. I don't live in AR and as I've said before I am a meat hunter. spike horn or 10 point they all taste the same to me. Whats it matter how much head gear they have

It isn't about head gear... pretend they have no headgear and they are just male deer and the yearlings need to be protected... the headgear is just used as a gauge to help identify the yearlings. You can go back and read in any of the AR threads what the point is, I posted it numerous times I think.

[oneidacountyhunter]

It isn't about head gear... pretend they have no headgear and they are just male deer and the yearlings need to be protected... the headgear is just used as a gauge to help identify the yearlings. You can go back and read in any of the AR threads what the point is, I posted it numerous times I think.

Ok, that makes more sense. I thought it was designed to grow bigger racks, thanks for the explanation

[Doc]

I hunt in NEPA that now has had antler restrictions for a few years. In my experience if you can't tell what you are shooting at you shouldn't be shooting. Safety first and the quality of the shot. I understand sometimes you need to rush a shot and then ground shrinkage occurs but then you didn't truely know what you were shooting at.

Nobody has challenged my assertion that point counting in the wild is an in-exact activity in most cases. Anyone who wants to try to say thay they have been exactly right everytime with their point counts of deer in the woods is .... how can I put this in a non-confrontational way .... maybe a bit dilusional? I have seen a lot of bucks in my day and the percentage of them that I could swear that I had an exact count on would be actually quite small, and I think anyone interested in being honest would have to say the same thing. And then to determine how many points were on a particular side cuts the percentage even more. And it wasn't about the fact that I didn't know what I was shooting at. There was no doubt in my mind that I was clearly shooting at a racked buck of satisfactory size. I knew exactly what I was shooting at. Because I couldn't count the points and determine exactly which ones were really on which side is a reason for not shooting? Well, I guess it is now in some areas. But don't kid yourself, there will be plenty of good responsible hunters that will think they see the required number of tines on one antler that will just plain be wrong. We can pretend our infallibility all we want, but that still doesn't change the fact that when it comes to a tangle of tines, we don't always see what we think we see.

[nyantler]

Nobody has challenged my assertion that point counting in the wild is an in-exact activity in most cases. Anyone who wants to try to say thay they have been exactly right everytime with their point counts of deer in the woods is .... how can I put this in a non-confrontational way .... maybe a bit dilusional? I have seen a lot of bucks in my day and the percentage of them that I could swear that I had an exact count on would be actually quite small, and I think anyone interested in being honest would have to say the same thing. And then to determine how many points were on a particular side cuts the percentage even more. And it wasn't about the fact that I didn't know what I was shooting at. There was no doubt in my mind that I was clearly shooting at a racked buck of satisfactory size. I knew exactly what I was shooting at. Because I couldn't count the points and determine exactly which ones were really on which side is a reason for not shooting? Well, I guess it is now in some areas. But don't kid yourself, there will be plenty of good responsible hunters that will think they see the required number of tines on one antler that will just plain be wrong. We can pretend our infallibility all we want, but that still doesn't change the fact that when it comes to a tangle of tines, we don't always see what we think we see.

I'll challenge it again... 3 is not a very hard number to count to... there are only two numbers before it... and the only non-legal bucks will be spike horns, 3 points and 4 points... even a five point will be legal... not many of us hunter can't count to 5... I think you're putting way to much weight on your theory that hunters are that uneducated that they can't count to 5 and somehow the DEC has imposed a law that nobody could possibly figure out responsibly... shooting a 4 point for a legal buck would not be a mistake... again it is simply irresponsible.... I will even go as far as saying that hunter doesn't put much value on safety either.. if he "refuses" to identify properly such a simple target...

[Doewhacker]

I don't look at it as restricting hunters

So you don't think that Antler RESTRICTIONS are a restriction? lol