AR question

[Guns&ReligionCop]

Nobody has challenged my assertion that point counting in the wild is an in-exact activity in most cases. Anyone who wants to try to say thay they have been exactly right everytime with their point counts of deer in the woods is .... how can I put this in a non-confrontational way .... maybe a bit dilusional? I have seen a lot of bucks in my day and the percentage of them that I could swear that I had an exact count on would be actually quite small, and I think anyone interested in being honest would have to say the same thing. And then to determine how many points were on a particular side cuts the percentage even more. And it wasn't about the fact that I didn't know what I was shooting at. There was no doubt in my mind that I was clearly shooting at a racked buck of satisfactory size. I knew exactly what I was shooting at. Because I couldn't count the points and determine exactly which ones were really on which side is a reason for not shooting? Well, I guess it is now in some areas. But don't kid yourself, there will be plenty of good responsible hunters that will think they see the required number of tines on one antler that will just plain be wrong. We can pretend our infallibility all we want, but that still doesn't change the fact that when it comes to a tangle of tines, we don't always see what we think we see.

Doc, you have to remember you don't have to count total points it just has to have 3 on one side helping the spikes and little Y bucks live a year longer to make a nicer looking deer. Yes is not an exact science as I thought that I shot a 8 pt last year but it was only a 7 pt. Remember You only need 3 pts on one side so you can possibly shoot a deer with only one antler as long as it has 3 pts on one side its legal. I clearly saw the G2, G3, G4 so I knew my deer was legal. Listen I know we are all human and make mistakes but it is really not difficult to tell what your shooting at even if you don't have the exact size and point count. The fact that you only need one side makes it easier not more difficult. If you are a meat hunt and don't care about rack size thats fine but there are plenty of doe's out there to shoot. Just remember the does are the ones with no points so you still have to be aware of what you are shooting at.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Just got to thinking. This would basically be the death blow to the good old fashioned deer drive, wouldn't it.

[Guns&ReligionCop]

Just got to thinking. This would basically be the death blow to the good old fashioned deer drive, wouldn't it.

I wouldn't mind a death blow to the good old fashioned deer drive as I have never been a fan and always kinda frowned upon it even if I have never been vocal because its only my opinion.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I wouldn't mind a death blow to the good old fashioned deer drive as I have never been a fan and always kinda frowned upon it even if I have never been vocal because its only my opinion.

Why do you frown on them?

[nyantler]

So you don't think that Antler RESTRICTIONS are a restriction? lol

Nope not any more than the 3" antler restriction thats been in place for 100 years. It is merely a change in the minimum of the old AR set in 1911 and much easier than trying to pick out a 3" antler.

Edited September 17, 2012 by nyantler

[nyantler]

Ok, that makes more sense. I thought it was designed to grow bigger racks, thanks for the explanation

Unfortunately, many of the hunters that are for AR's think it is about bigger racks as well. That seems to be some of the problem with it's exceptance.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Nope not any more than the 3" antler restriction thats been in place for 100 years. It is merely a change in the minimum of the old AR set in 1911 and much easier than trying to pick out a 3" antler.

There is a difference though, Joe. In areas with doe permits is actually makes a slot limit for deer...for lack of a better term. Before AR there were antlered and antlerless. if you had a buck tag and a doe tag and that "doe was standing broadside at 75. No need to wait for it to turn . You could take that first and sometime only good shot. AR has basically added a new group od deer that weren't there before. the Antlered but illegal ones...lol. They will have to swait on that doe now to make sure the spike isn't there and risk losing the opportunity. For many that isn't worth the trade off of having mor mature deer around. I can't argue with their resistance.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Why do you frown on them?

I cant wait to hear the answer to that.

Ten bucks says I know the answer without reading it though....i also know what the answer he types on here will be too. Ill PM them to you and you can tell me if Im right after he answers lol.

[Paula]

come on now

[Guns&ReligionCop]

Why do you frown on them?

Just don't really like it. I like when a deer is doing its thing and I hunt it or figure out where it is, not a bunch of guys kicking everything in the woods towards me. I don't think its unethical I just think it puts a lot of pressure in the woods and totally breaks deer of any kind of normal behavior so you have to resort to as I call them "Rifle Season tactics" Thats another reason I prefer to archery hunt. I frown upon it because in my opinion its less like hunting. That being said I'm guilty of doing it in the past myself but now I would only do it now to help a youth increase his chances. I wouldn't do it myself

[nyantler]

There is a difference though, Joe. In areas with doe permits is actually makes a slot limit for deer...for lack of a better term. Before AR there were antlered and antlerless. if you had a buck tag and a doe tag and that "doe was standing broadside at 75. No need to wait for it to turn . You could take that first and sometime only good shot. AR has basically added a new group od deer that weren't there before. the Antlered but illegal ones...lol. They will have to swait on that doe now to make sure the spike isn't there and risk losing the opportunity. For many that isn't worth the trade off of having mor mature deer around. I can't argue with their resistance.

I understand all that... I'm only talking about how easy I think it is to pic out a legal deer if the AR is in place and that under the 3 on a side AR rule there is no accidental kills... just irresposible kills. We must also remember that there are many that DO think the trade off is worth it... I just don't think the accidental kills thing is a good argument against AR's.. The best argument is that hunters just don't want them because they want to be able to kill yearling bucks and don't care about a balanced buck age structure in the herd... that is at least honest.

[Doc]

Doc, you have to remember you don't have to count total points it just has to have 3 on one side helping the spikes and little Y bucks live a year longer to make a nicer looking deer. Yes is not an exact science as I thought that I shot a 8 pt last year but it was only a 7 pt. Remember You only need 3 pts on one side so you can possibly shoot a deer with only one antler as long as it has 3 pts on one side its legal. I clearly saw the G2, G3, G4 so I knew my deer was legal. Listen I know we are all human and make mistakes but it is really not difficult to tell what your shooting at even if you don't have the exact size and point count. The fact that you only need one side makes it easier not more difficult. If you are a meat hunt and don't care about rack size thats fine but there are plenty of doe's out there to shoot. Just remember the does are the ones with no points so you still have to be aware of what you are shooting at.

A deer holding it's head sideways poses a tangle of points that unless the deer is super-close can confuse the hunter as to whether all three points are on the same antler. I have seen it more times than not on smaller bucks. Now granted, if you ignore the law and only shoot bucks that have more than 3 points per side, and tines that are large enough to not be mistaken, you can improve your chances of not misreading what you think you are seeing. But that is not the law, or the intent of the law. And people should not be in a made to over-extend the law just to ensure that they are not turned into poachers. That's the only point I am making. It is sloppy lawmaking, and is not as liberal as some try to make it out to be. And for those that claim that there will be some honest mistakes left rotting in the woods, they are exactly right.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

A deer holding it's head sideways poses a tangle of points that unless the deer is super-close can confuse the hunter as to whether all three points are on the same antler. I have seen it more times than not on smaller bucks. Now granted, if you ignore the law and only shoot bucks that have more than 3 points per side, and tines that are large enough to not be mistaken, you can improve your chances of not misreading what you think you are seeing. But that is not the law, or the intent of the law. And people should not be in a made to over-extend the law just to ensure that they are not turned into poachers. That's the only point I am making. It is sloppy lawmaking, and is not as liberal as some try to make it out to be. And for those that claim that there will be some honest mistakes left rotting in the woods, they are exactly right.

I agree there will be some left in the woods but most of them will come from the ones that have the gound check way of thinking or the ones that will shoot anyways and pull the loins and hams.

Yes it will make people slow down and look to see what they are shooting at. That is what will make the law work and do what it was intended to do.....Save the younger bucks.

[Doc]

I'll challenge it again... 3 is not a very hard number to count to... there are only two numbers before it... and the only non-legal bucks will be spike horns, 3 points and 4 points... even a five point will be legal... not many of us hunter can't count to 5... I think you're putting way to much weight on your theory that hunters are that uneducated that they can't count to 5 and somehow the DEC has imposed a law that nobody could possibly figure out responsibly... shooting a 4 point for a legal buck would not be a mistake... again it is simply irresponsible.... I will even go as far as saying that hunter doesn't put much value on safety either.. if he "refuses" to identify properly such a simple target...

Anybody who tells me that point counting on deer antlers in the wild is an exact activity probably is more interested in bending a discussion a bit than actually being honest about their actual observations. And I don't care whether it is a 4-point or a 12-point I have not met anyone who is as infallible at counting points as you are trying to claim. It' s not just a case of being able to count up to 3 points on the rack. That has absolutely nothing to do with the law. The law says they have to all be on the same beam. As to your assertion that such a thing cannot be a mistake, I simply think you are wrong.

By the way, regarding the safety aspect of it, I will say that because you cannot make out whether that third tine is on the same beam as the other two, doesn't mean that a human looks like a deer .... lol. That's a pretty ridiculous argument. How a deer orients it's head is a long way from being a safety issue.

[Doc]

I agree there will be some left in the woods but most of them will come from the ones that have the gound check way of thinking or the ones that will shoot anyways and pull the loins and hams.

Yes it will make people slow down and look to see what they are shooting at. That is what will make the law work and do what it was intended to do.....Save the younger bucks.

You are talking about intentional poaching. I am talking about mis-identification of what can be a very confusing and misleading picture of antler set-up. Big difference.

[nyantler]

Doc.. even broadside, head sideways it is not difficult to count 5 points on a deers head in any configuration... thats is all you need to count to is 5... again.. the idea is to protect yearling bucks... so that should be the objective for the hunter.. the DEC like I said has done nothing to make anyone do anything... they simple altered a regulation for the protection of yearling bucks and it is the resposibility of every hunter to adhere to that law if that is the law... period... a hunters lack of counting ability or resposibility is not an excuse for not adhering to the law.... There may be deer rotting in the woods.. but that is not on the DEC that is on irresponsible hunters not willing to be clear of their target before shooting.

[nyantler]

Anybody who tells me that point counting on deer antlers in the wild is an exact activity probably is more interested in bending a discussion a bit than actually being honest about their actual observations. And I don't care whether it is a 4-point or a 12-point I have not met anyone who is as infallible at counting points as you are trying to claim. It' s not just a case of being able to count up to 3 points on the rack. That has absolutely nothing to do with the law. The law says they have to all be on the same beam. As to your assertion that such a thing cannot be a mistake, I simply think you are wrong.

By the way, regarding the safety aspect of it, I will say that because you cannot make out whether that third tine is on the same beam as the other two, doesn't mean that a human looks like a deer .... lol. That's a pretty ridiculous argument. How a deer orients it's head is a long way from being a safety issue.

Put some pics up doc.. I'll pick out the legal buck everytime.. don't care what the head orientation is...

[Doc]

Put some pics up doc.. I'll pick out the legal buck everytime.. don't care what the head orientation is...

Well, I can see that you are locked into that assertion, so it's useless and a complete waste of time to continue arguing the point. Better we should talk about something that you can be a little more objective about .... lol.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Just don't really like it. I like when a deer is doing its thing and I hunt it or figure out where it is, not a bunch of guys kicking everything in the woods towards me. I don't think its unethical I just think it puts a lot of pressure in the woods and totally breaks deer of any kind of normal behavior so you have to resort to as I call them "Rifle Season tactics" Thats another reason I prefer to archery hunt. I frown upon it because in my opinion its less like hunting. That being said I'm guilty of doing it in the past myself but now I would only do it now to help a youth increase his chances. I wouldn't do it myself

Well you proved me wrong lol. I figured youd cop out and say safety, but you were honest about it. Gotta respect that.

[WNYBuckHunter]

come on now

Come on paula, you didnt see the humor in that?

[Four Season Whitetail's]

You are talking about intentional poaching. I am talking about mis-identification of what can be a very confusing and misleading picture of antler set-up. Big difference.

No im talkin about the guys from the city or people that dont hunt much and dont care. They see bone,they pull the trigger and if its good they take it and if not...there it stays. Thats called mis-identification.

[jjb4900]

people from the city? I guarantee you people who live outside the "city", as in "upstater's", are responsible for more illegally taken deer every year than any other group of people that you judge by the area they reside in....and you can bet the mortgage payment on that.

[Guns&ReligionCop]

Well you proved me wrong lol. I figured youd cop out and say safety, but you were honest about it. Gotta respect that.

Well safety isn't the biggest issue if your hunting party knows not to shoot the 2 legged deer dressed in orange

[Doc]

No im talkin about the guys from the city or people that dont hunt much and dont care. They see bone,they pull the trigger and if its good they take it and if not...there it stays. Thats called mis-identification.

Thank God I don't really hang out with those kind of people. So, I haven't run into any of that. Anybody I know or hunt with understand that I would turn them in for that kind of thing. But, I'm sure that it does happen someplace.

[nyantler]

Well, I can see that you are locked into that assertion, so it's useless and a complete waste of time to continue arguing the point. Better we should talk about something that you can be a little more objective about .... lol.

Just that you're making a blanket statement about what hunters can and cannot do... I am saying that I can pic out the legal buck every time if the antlers are visible.. if not visible I don't shoot.. it can't get any simpler than that... I hope you don't think that I believe there aren't fellas out there that will shoot a deer "they" say is by mistake.. I am just saying it isn't by mistake... that point I think can't be argued. The onus is not on the DEC to make hunters responsible.. they just make the rules and its up to hunters to do whatever is necessary to adhere to them. If you're saying that there will be irresponsible hunters that will shoot the wrong deer.. then I am in agreement with that.

Edited September 18, 2012 by nyantler