Let's throw some gas on the fire - MI Report

[Single_shot]

"Most hunt with a gun because they are too lazy to put in the time with a bow. I'd prefer they didn't hunt at all but thats not an option."

WOW!

[sampotter]

"Most hunt with a gun because they are too lazy to put in the time with a bow. I'd prefer they didn't hunt at all but thats not an option."

WOW!

Taken in context the statement is "Most SLOB HUNTERS hunt with a gun because they are too lazy to put in the time with a bow. I'd prefer they didn't hunt at all but thats not an option."

[Single_shot]

Taken in context the statement is "Most SLOB HUNTERS hunt with a gun because they are too lazy to put in the time with a bow. I'd prefer they didn't hunt at all but thats not an option."

Thanks for clarification.

[SteveB]

Really? What are the disadvantages that a cross bow has that a vertical bow doesn't.

Weight.

Noise.

Limb clearance - most obstructions in the woods are vertical.

Off hand accuracy is less than a compound - check IBO scores where both are shot on the same ranges.

My gripe is that a fair percentage of gun-goons that usually aren't in the woods until the weekend before the gun opener to make some last minute hammer and chainsaw adjustments to their box blinds will suddenly take up "bow" hunting if they are allowed to use a crossbow, thereby polluting the woods and causing deer to shut down.

Gun Goons??

Right at the top of the most elitist, anti hunting statements I've seen by a sportsman.

You asked WNY, so I'll ask you - are you even a hunter?

There's no denying that there are slob hunters that give hunting a bad name. Most hunt with a gun because they are too lazy to put in the time with a bow. I'd prefer they didn't hunt at all but thats not an option.

Yep - anyone not hunting by your rules is a slob.

Fact is there are slobs in any endeavor regardless of tool used.

[sampotter]

Weight.

Noise.

Limb clearance - most obstructions in the woods are vertical.

Off hand accuracy is less than a compound - check IBO scores where both are shot on the same ranges.

Gun Goons??

Right at the top of the most elitist, anti hunting statements I've seen by a sportsman.

You asked WNY, so I'll ask you - are you even a hunter?

Yep - anyone not hunting by your rules is a slob.

Fact is there are slobs in any endeavor regardless of tool used.

You can call me elitist all you want, you're not going to hurt my feelings just because I think the current NY rules are just fine. Just like there's a reason some streams are flyfishing only, there's a reason to not allow crossbows for able bodied hunters during bow season.

There are indeed slobs in any endeavor regardless of tool used and I prefer to not be associated with them. In my neck of the woods (not far at all from you SteveB) there appears to be a lot more slobs, aka Gun Goons (goon is a hockey term that would be a good label for the Hanson brothers in Slapshot) that gun hunt than bow hunt. I see it every season. Trespassing, shooting from and across roads, etc.

The idea of having to practice a lot with a vertical bow to become proficient has been daunting enough to keep a lot of hunters from taking it up. It makes bow season a very enjoyable time for the hunters that enjoy the quiet, solitude, and lack of deer drives. It doesn't mean that gun hunters don't get to deer hunt for over a month with gun and ML. Making crossbows legal for anyone to use during bow season would suddenly be enough for those that were on the fence to start "bow" hunting because crossbows are indeed a lot easier to be good 'nuf with.

[SteveB]

I know where US is - niece lives there and I bow hunt a few times a year just south.

Pointing out your elitism was stating a fact and not an attempt to hurt your feelings.

It's clear what you want - everyone hunt by Sam's rules or they don't belong.

Still didn't answer if you are even a hunter.

[sampotter]

Not sure where this is going? No, I'm not a hunter.

My rules are pretty much the same as the current NYS game laws although I would be in favor of antler restrictions if you insist.

Elitist isn't really the proper term for me as I don't feel as though my opinion is any more important than yours, I just happen to see things in a contrasting light.

There is no reason why any person can't take up bowhunting as the current rules stand, they just need to be willing to put in the time if they want reasonable success.

Unfortunately there aren't many qualifications needed to be able hunt in the US. Ethics certainly isn't one of them and it is undeniable that there are people that are out hunting that in a perfect world wouldn't be let out of the house.

I thought of a good Gun Goon example (not all gun hunters are goons): I let a guy I work with sit in one of my blinds and he brought his young son along. He hunted with his pistol for the first time ever even though and a doe came along. He took the shot and she ran away. He found a bunch of hair where she had been standing but no blood. Because he saw no blood he figured she was fine. Later his brother in law noticed that he shot her with self defense ammo! This wasn't exactly his 1st time hunting. He is exaclty the type that would pick up a crossbow if it were legal.

[nyantler]

I have never understood the threat that guys feel from the crossbow... the crossbow has been a hunting weapon used throughout the ages... before the gun it was probably preferred by those that could get their hands on one... I really believe that any opposition to it is a selfish one... I have also never understood how hunters being in the woods before me with any other weapon should concern me.. unless I was really that worried about my ability as a hunter to be able to find and kill a deer...

[covert]

Taken in context the statement is "Most SLOB HUNTERS hunt with a gun because they are too lazy to put in the time with a bow. I'd prefer they didn't hunt at all but thats not an option."

Actually I know just as many bowhunters who start shooting the week before bow season as I do gun hunters who do the same.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Actually I know just as many bowhunters who start shooting the week before bow season as I do gun hunters who do the same.

+1...I believe anyone worried about someone else being in the woods with them is a tad childish. I guess if you only hunted state land then you might have to change your ways a bit but to say you cant go in the woods with me because you dont practice?

[phade]

I have never understood the threat that guys feel from the crossbow... the crossbow has been a hunting weapon used throughout the ages... before the gun it was probably preferred by those that could get their hands on one... I really believe that any opposition to it is a selfish one... I have also never understood how hunters being in the woods before me with any other weapon should concern me.. unless I was really that worried about my ability as a hunter to be able to find and kill a deer...

The whole selfish thing doesn't fly with me, honestly. I think it is OK to be selfish if that is one's opinion or point of view. It is their opinion, just as it is OK to want to share, I guess. I'm on the fence with the xbow inclusion and probably won't sway any direction for the foreseeable future. I've been around xbows enough to know them, their advantages, limits, etc. and I still sit on the fence. I'm not really sure what would make me lean one way or the other. I will say, after spending time with xbow hunters in xbow archery-legal states, I do have to say I saw a higher percent of slob hunters in that group. I'm the first to admit there are slobs in any group, but I am convinced that the rate of slobs was much much higher with xbow hunters. That's just my experience, and not necessarily the norm.

Everyone can argue til they are blue in the face on this topic, but one thing that may not be clear is that I'd bet dollar for dollar Sam is probably one of, if not, the, best whitetail hunter on this site. He can walk the talk.

Edited February 24, 2013 by phade

[SteveB]

Wnybuckhunter-

Do you currently bowhunt?

Simply asked him the same question he asked another.

He knew the answer and was just being insulting.

Curious what the criteria is for being one of the best?

Does that give one's opinion more weight when setting the bar for who is a "goon hunter"?

Does it allow them to attempt to insult and discredit another hunter by implying they might not be a bow hunter?

Edited February 24, 2013 by SteveB

[phade]

Simply asked him the same question he asked another.

He knew the answer and was just being insulting.

Curious what the criteria is for being one of the best?

Does that give one's opinion more weight when setting the bar for who is a "goon hunter"?

Does it allow them to attempt to insult and discredit another hunter by implying they might not be a bow hunter?

I merely responded to Joe's assertion that one would be worried about their skill as a hunter based on someone being in the woods with a weapon before him. I went by my criteria. If the site's members were dropped into an area and all else the same, he'd be the one to come out with the biggest/oldest buck more times than not. Sam knows his stuff.

I have no opinion on the insulting, discrediting, etc. I'm not involved in that. That's for everyone else to pound out.

Edited February 24, 2013 by phade

[SteveB]

Sorry - thought you where responding to me.

[sampotter]

I have never understood the threat that guys feel from the crossbow... the crossbow has been a hunting weapon used throughout the ages... before the gun it was probably preferred by those that could get their hands on one... I really believe that any opposition to it is a selfish one... I have also never understood how hunters being in the woods before me with any other weapon should concern me.. unless I was really that worried about my ability as a hunter to be able to find and kill a deer...

We are all entitled to our own opinions. For me, hunting is about the experience and it's a lot more fun if you don't see another hunter and there's a chance that deer will be acting naturally. It's no secret that once the gun season opens where I live deer either leave town or go nocturnal. You can forget about everything you've read about patterning deer or trying to call them. The only reliable way to see deer is to see deer is to stomp them out of the brush, which is my least favorite way to see or shoot deer. My overall assertation is that allowing crossbows as a legal weapon during bow season will mostly draw gun hunters into crossbow hunting rather than converting bowhunters into crossbow hunters.

+1...I believe anyone worried about someone else being in the woods with them is a tad childish. I guess if you only hunted state land then you might have to change your ways a bit but to say you cant go in the woods with me because you dont practice?

Anyone can go in the woods with a bow regardless of if they practice or not and yes there are morons that "bowhunt" but for the most part they quickly lose interest when they aren't successful, which is where the practice comes in.

Simply asked him the same question he asked another.

He knew the answer and was just being insulting.

Does it allow them to attempt to insult and discredit another hunter by implying they might not be a bow hunter?

I'm not sure how you managed to derive an insult from a simple question. I asked it because I didn't know the answer for sure and didn't want to assume... Depending on what the answer was I had more questions that would help me understand the motivation for wanting crossbows to be legal. There is nothing wrong with not being a bowhunter and it shouldn't be taken as an insult.

[nyantler]

The whole selfish thing doesn't fly with me, honestly. I think it is OK to be selfish if that is one's opinion or point of view. It is their opinion, just as it is OK to want to share, I guess. I'm on the fence with the xbow inclusion and probably won't sway any direction for the foreseeable future. I've been around xbows enough to know them, their advantages, limits, etc. and I still sit on the fence. I'm not really sure what would make me lean one way or the other. I will say, after spending time with xbow hunters in xbow archery-legal states, I do have to say I saw a higher percent of slob hunters in that group. I'm the first to admit there are slobs in any group, but I am convinced that the rate of slobs was much much higher with xbow hunters. That's just my experience, and not necessarily the norm.

Everyone can argue til they are blue in the face on this topic, but one thing that may not be clear is that I'd bet dollar for dollar Sam is probably one of, if not, the, best whitetail hunter on this site. He can walk the talk.

Selfish, jealous, same thing to me... who cares what weapon another hunter is using in the woods? I don't get how that affects me and my hunting experience unless I consume myself with it... so that crossbow hunter takes one of the deer in the woods during archery season... so what? Where is the threat to my hunting experience? What makes a crossbow that threatening that other hunters get up in arms against fellow hunters over it? The only explaination is fear that crossbow hunters will take deer that other hunters feel belong to them... thats crazy. We're really worried about any advantage the crossbow might have over another bow?? Why don't we start banning all the hunters that have an advantage because they have more experience in the woods? Or maybe those that are in better shape? We certainly cannot allow anyone to have an advantage because somehow it will threaten our hunting experience... does anyone else hear how crazy that sounds?

[phade]

You dont seem to get it. Some one has a differing opinion and it is perfectly ok to be selfish if that is their prerogative. This whole not being selfish thing pushed on everyone isnt always the best practice. Face it selfishness is acceptable at times when it fits. I personally dont see any Ghandis or Bhuddas on here.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Wnybuckhunter-

Do you currently bowhunt?

Yep

[sampotter]

Joe- if the crossbow has no advantages over a vertical bow then why do people want to include it in bow season and why hasn't it always been a legal implement? Where does the line get drawn? Why not have a general "deer" season where anyone can use their weapon of choice be it poison dart or scud missile?

If I were to agree that being against crossbows during bow season is motivated by selfishness then you have to agree that being for them is motivated by greediness.

[sampotter]

Yep

Ok, by reading your previous post it appears you are in favor of crossbow inclusion during bow season. If this is true what are your reasons?

[WNYBuckHunter]

Im in favor of it for many reasons.

First and foremost, it makes sense, its just another type of bow with similar range and limitations as a compound, so archery season is where it belongs.

Next, because there are many people out there, young and old, that cannot use a vertical bow for reasons of physical limitations, that would be able to start or continue archery hunting with a crossbow. What if you were to injure your shoulder, you want to sit the season out? I dont. The current regs for getting a special permit for any type of draw lock or assistance device is way too restrictive. A doctor isnt always going to be able to tell that your shoulder isnt in shape to draw a bow.

Next, there are a ton of guys that dont practice shooting their vertical bows as much as they should, and end up making bad shots, wounding deer. In turn the deer run around with an injury, or an arrow sticking through their back, and non hunters see this and are disgusted. I know you had to have seen the pics posted on the anti hunting sites. I would rather those people have a weapon in their hands that allows them the better chance to put a better shot on the animal.

Im just not the type of person that agrees with more restrictions, and I just do not see any valid reason to not allow another type of bow into archery season. The only reasons I have ever seen an anti crossbow person bring up are either half truths or selfish reasons.

[SteveB]

Joe- if the crossbow has no advantages over a vertical bow then why do people want to include it in bow season and why hasn't it always been a legal implement?

Same was said when the compound 1st came in. It is a form of a bow and was allowed as is should the crossbow. Compound did far more to effect the season that trad hunters had, then a xbow will. Of course this is only an opinion, but one based on seeing what has happened in every state where included.

There are way more advantages to a compound over a recurve than a cpmd to xbow. Xbow does have some advantages over a cpmd but there are disadvantages as well - which I listed above and where missed or ignored.

Where does the line get drawn? Why not have a general "deer" season where anyone can use their weapon of choice be it poison dart or scud missile?

I have yet to hear anyone supporting xbow inclusion ever advocating this.

They want to see all bows in the bow season.

Point has no relevance to the discussion.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Joe- if the crossbow has no advantages over a vertical bow then why do people want to include it in bow season and why hasn't it always been a legal implement? Where does the line get drawn? Why not have a general "deer" season where anyone can use their weapon of choice be it poison dart or scud missile?

If I were to agree that being against crossbows during bow season is motivated by selfishness then you have to agree that being for them is motivated by greediness.

The first part of your statement is just ridiculous. In no way can that be a valid argument, its just crap thrown at a wall. No offense.

The second part, well Im not going to speak for Joe, but From my experience, those that think in a selfish manor just seem to be incapable of looking at the subject in any other way. Greed? Hardly. Logical? Completely.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Why worry about what someone else is hunting with? Unless it has something to do with you. If thats the case then you ae woried they might take a deer that maybe you could have taken!

This practice crap dos not cut it either. Go back and read the bow thread during last years bow season. Many poor hits and losses. Its going to happen reguardless. If you dont want to hunt with something, Then dont but dont tell someone else they shouldnt. Kinda goes back to the AR thing. Some dont want to be told what they can harvest and some dont want to be told what and when they can harvest with.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Of course bad hits are gonna happen, i never said a crossbow would do away with them. What i said was it will help those that dont practice as they should have a better chance at making a good shot. In other words, it helps with consistency.