Let's throw some gas on the fire - MI Report

[SteveB]

Lots of states have added the crossbow to their bow season.

There must be stats available to back up the fear that there is a big influx of new hunters that where gun hunters only.

Where are they?

[phade]

Lots of states have added the crossbow to their bow season.

There must be stats available to back up the fear that there is a big influx of new hunters that where gun hunters only.

Where are they?

I'm haven't looked extensively, but one facet that it worth noting is that Ohio now has more xbow hunters than "longbow" hunters. "Longbow" includes the vertical bow bunch.

The MI report loosely points to it, but doesn't rule out those moving from bow to xbow..a significant % (49% of the replies indicated that they agree or strongly agree that they could not hunt deer during the archery season without the crossbow.) said they couldn't hunt archery if xbows were disallowed. While certainly some are those who can no longer hunt with bow, I think it'd be rational to expect a significant % to be those who are able to shoot a bow but have not learned/put the time in - and I suspect that bunch comes from gun hunters. Sure, it's not factually tied based on the released numbers - they didn't ask that - but I think a guy as smart as you would agree that 49% likely consists of a sizeable portion of able-bodied gun hunters.

Edited February 26, 2013 by phade

[Five Seasons]

Based on estimates from annual deer harvest surveys (e.g., Frawley 2012), the number of people hunting deer during all deer hunting seasons

in Michigan declined 7% and deer harvested declined 13% between 2008 and 2011 (i.e., after crossbows were allowed in the archery season). Furthermore, the number of hunters participating in the regular firearm season (November 15-30) declined 10% and deer taken declined 27% during this same period. In contrast, the number of people hunting in the archery season increased 13% and deer taken increased 24% between 2008 and 2011 (Tables 1-2). Thus, authorization of crossbow use during the archery season appeared to help increase hunter participation and deer harvest in the archery season since 2008.

gee i keep hearing crossbows will save hunting in NY. That hunters numbers and kills are declining (even though our wildlife reports say different) and the crossbow will increase them...

[Five Seasons]

you and i both know 90% of bow hunters do not practice like they should, so it results in missed and wounded deer? v

lmao. 90% huh? that's quite the number. Did you do this study or did you just pull it out of your ass? And I get yelled at for lumping people together...

In their 30's? If I think way way back to when I was in my 30's...LOL. I was a new Father at 30. I had bought my first house at 30. maybe the draw in that age group really is the fact that less practice is needed to become proficient.

I don't know how many hunters actually take up bow hunting in their 30's... So you're really busy and strapped for cash but you'll still go out and spend over $500 on a crossbow? And not practice with it at all? Honestly I'm 29. New home in July, new baby in August, 50 hour a week job and I still found 20 minutes after work a few times a week in September to shoot a couple dozen arrows.

I didn't start bowhunting until after college. I was too busy with sports and school to devote the time to it. So i gun hunted. It's not like I was banned from the woods.

You are 100% wrong.

Look, nobody is saying crossbows arent a bit easier than vertical bows, of course they are. To say they are vastly superior, and have no disadvantages against a vertical bow is just plain incorrect. The anti-crossbow crowd only points out the advantages to crossbows, they never tell both sides of it.

I could quote quite a few statements in other threads by memebers saying they were just as hard

You can call me elitist all you want, you're not going to hurt my feelings just because I think the current NY rules are just fine. Just like there's a reason some streams are flyfishing only, there's a reason to not allow crossbows for able bodied hunters during bow season.

dont waste your time. You disagree with them, therefore you're an elitest and wrong. Whether it's you, me or someone else who is opposed to crossbows during the archery season for the able bodied hunter, the resident crossbow humpers will attack like a pack of coyotes and you'll be called names, labeled and classified and then when you fight back they'll cry to the mods claiming you broke the rules.

Selfish, jealous, same thing to me... who cares what weapon another hunter is using in the woods?

it's called regular and late season. Use whatever you want and nobody will care.

Next, there are a ton of guys that dont practice shooting their vertical bows as much as they should, and end up making bad shots, wounding deer.

And there are a ton of gun hunters taking bad shots as well. I dont see your point here.

So yeah, as a bow hunter who has been involved in the sport for more than 53 years, I would like to see bow hunters draw a line in the sand and claim, "this far and no further". But then, I am a dying breed of hunter that definitely is in a tiny minority today. I have gotten out of bowhunting what I wanted, and I suppose it is up to the next generation to shape the future for themselves.

my biggest worries. My generation wants instant gratification. We cant even watch a youtube video over 1 minute. If it's not 30 seconds and to the point we lose interest. We watch tv and surf the web on our smartphones. We EXPECT to have a job out of college and everyone in all sports gets a trophy. When they get into the real world they're shocked to see that it's not a trophy for everyone. There is great reward that is earned when bowhunting. But as a society we have all become lazy and want it to be easier. No challenge for me please. There's several references in this thread alone to people leaving bowhunting do to lack of success. You know what I think of that? You didn't put in the effort. Putting on a saturday afternoon gun drive is just easier. I dont get up early and sit in the cold.

At what point do we start allowing bait piles to make it easier? where do we draw the line?

Edited February 26, 2013 by Belo

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I don't know how many hunters actually take up bow hunting in their 30's... So you're really busy and strapped for cash but you'll still go out and spend over $500 on a crossbow? And not practice with it at all? Honestly I'm 29. New home in July, new baby in August, 50 hour a week job and I still found 20 minutes after work a few times a week in September to shoot a dozen arrows.

I didn't reference anything about cost? I was speaking of the amount of time that may be availiable to hunters in that age group. Not everyone has that easy access to shooting for practice. Many can't step out their back door and practice. And FYI. congrats on the new born, but they are not the draw on time. Wait until they get into activities and you take part in those. Lat's be honest. The crossbow doesn't require much practice. The form component of the vertical bow is performed by the stock and trigger mechanism. It is similar to a long gun in that respect. Once sighted in you really don't have to worry about much.

[WNYBuckHunter]

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gee i keep hearing crossbows will save hunting in NY. That hunters numbers and kills are declining (even though our wildlife reports say different) and the crossbow will increase them...

Ahhhh, the old NYB tactic of taking what the pro side is saying, then twisting it so you can try to use it against them. At no point has anyone ever on this site said that crossbows will save hunting in NY. Feel free to continue with your spin campaign though.

Hows that Kool Aid, any new flavors lately?

[WNYBuckHunter]

I could quote quite a few statements in other threads by memebers saying they were just as hard

Put your money where your mouth is there bub. In other words, Im calling you out on this one.

[WNYBuckHunter]

And there are a ton of gun hunters taking bad shots as well. I dont see your point here.

Of course you wont when you cherry pick one sentence and take it out of context.

[WNYBuckHunter]

And btw belo, when you antis are called elitists, its not just because you are anti crossbow. Its because of WHY you are anti crossbow, for nothing more than selfish reasons, and because you portray yourselves as better than others, or more of a hunter than someone that doesnt hunt the way you do.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I didn't reference anything about cost? I was speaking of the amount of time that may be availiable to hunters in that age group. Not everyone has that easy access to shooting for practice. Many can't step out their back door and practice. And FYI. congrats on the new born, but they are not the draw on time. Wait until they get into activities and you take part in those. Lat's be honest. The crossbow doesn't require much practice. The form component of the vertical bow is performed by the stock and trigger mechanism. It is similar to a long gun in that respect. Once sighted in you really don't have to worry about much.

Careful with that Culver, I know some people that have choked with their guns just like some do with their bows lol.

Yes, myself included.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Careful with that Culver, I know some people that have choked with their guns just like some do with their bows lol.

Yes, myself included.

But that was 100% my fault and a bad case of buck fever that I hadn't felt in a while...lol. It wasn't form or from practice. If that was a paper target out there it would have been dead...lol. I do much better on buck when I cant watch them for 30 minutes before the shot. Ain't adrenaline great!!!.

[Five Seasons]

Of course you wont when you cherry pick one sentence and take it out of context.

what did I take out of context? You made a statement and I refuted it. It's hard to take "wounding deer" out of context.

Put your money where your mouth is there bub. In other words, Im calling you out on this one.

here's one. I know there were plenty others regarding the noise they make, the limb size etc. But now all the threads are split up and I'm not wasting my time with you as you're clearly a xbow humper.

You didnt answer any of my questions.

I don't care what you say. Hunting from the ground (no blind) with a crossbow is just as "hard" as hunting from a treestand with your Mathews. If you don't want people "messing up YOUR bow season", then get a good enough job where you can buy your own piece of property and don't let others on it!

Edited February 27, 2013 by Belo

[Culvercreek hunt club]

The "hunting" is as hard . the shooting part of the 'hunt" isn't. If you consider the hunt to be the shot I will give you that the crossbow is easier. Up to and after that part the hunt is the same. I don't remember anyone saying a crossbow was NOT easier to actually shoot. I have seen several comments about them not having the vast "advantages" that are often claimed that they have.

[Five Seasons]

The "hunting" is as hard . the shooting part of the 'hunt" isn't. If you consider the hunt to be the shot I will give you that the crossbow is easier. Up to and after that part the hunt is the same. I don't remember anyone saying a crossbow was NOT easier to actually shoot. I have seen several comments about them not having the vast "advantages" that are often claimed that they have.

the shot is 10% of it. It's the prep and the patience. But you still have to make the shot. I dont think there's a seasoned bow hunter hear that hasn't passed up a difficult shot or missed outright where they may have very well succeeded with an xbow.

[SteveB]

And there are shots that can be taken easier and more accurately with a compound.

Same thing with a recurve vs compound vs crossbow.

[WNYBuckHunter]

what did I take out of context? You made a statement and I refuted it. It's hard to take "wounding deer" out of context.

Add the rest of the statement in there. Do I need to explain what out of context is to you as well?

[WNYBuckHunter]

here's one. I know there were plenty others regarding the noise they make, the limb size etc. But now all the threads are split up and I'm not wasting my time with you as you're clearly a xbow humper.

Here you go again with the out of context stuff. You took a statement completely out of context and tried to use it to support your statement. Go back and look at what that conversation was about, then the statement makes sense, and it also doesnt say that shooting a crossbow is just as hard as shooting a bow. He said hunting from the ground with a crossbow is just as challenging (hard) as hunting from a treestand with a vertical bow.

Im still waiting to see these quotes that are showing what you claim as true. I wont be holding my breath because you will never be able to prove your claim.

[growalot]

And btw belo, when you antis are called elitists, its not just because you are anti crossbow. Its because of WHY you are anti crossbow, for nothing more than selfish reasons, and because you portray yourselves as better than others, or more of a hunter than someone that doesnt hunt the way you do.

WNYBH..I understand why you would say that to him and Get that you and many others have a problem with NYBA...but your statement does have a bit too big a stroke...as you know not everyone that has a problem with crossbows think that way...and have other issues with the introduction of crossbows in NYS...lets be fair here

[WNYBuckHunter]

I was 100% fair with the statement. Read it and youll see that it applies to only those anti-crossbowers that are antis for selfish reasons. If your reasons are in fact, not selfish, and based on something else, then it doesnt apply to you.

[phade]

I was 100% fair with the statement. Read it and youll see that it applies to only those anti-crossbowers that are antis for selfish reasons. If your reasons are in fact, not selfish, and based on something else, then it doesnt apply to you.

From an observation point (I'm a fence sitter here), any point provided by people against the Xbow have had their points labeled as selfish (although I'm not against people being selfish in certain situations) by the pro xbow crowd in this thread. Most, but not all in the case of the reverse. The only exception I fully see is SteveB, but I think he's a bit older than most of us and seeing things differently based his recurve/trad hunting experience (Note POV is never wrong...it just "is").

Case in point to me was the banter between Culver and Belo on the shot being "easier." I think Belo explained that portion correctly and not for a selfish reason. I think he also agreed with Culver on the pre-shot requirements. I don't think that points to selfishness imo. Other aspect may not be the case, however.

I think Grow may have hit it accurately (Am I really saying that?!?!?!).

Edited February 27, 2013 by phade

[WNYBuckHunter]

Not at all phade. Belo has said in the past that he is anti because he doesnt want more slobs, etc in his archery woods (not a direct quote, but pretty close).

Again, my statement was directed at the selfish and elitist anti-crossbow crowd.

Now, if you can show that I am pro crossbow for selfish reasons, or that I am an elitist, then I will call you a miracle worker from here on out lol.

[Five Seasons]

You are 100% wrong.

I was 100% fair with the statement.

you sure are confident... but i'm the arrogant elitist? I've given some of your points credit, yet you never seem to give an inch on your side. You're really no fun to debate with because you never concede that one side has some good arguments...

[WNYBuckHunter]

you sure are confident... but i'm the arrogant elitist? I've given some of your points credit, yet you never seem to give an inch on your side. You're really no fun to debate with because you never concede that one side has some good arguments...

Uh yeah, both of those statements you quoted were true and factual. Your point?

BTW, yes, you are an elitist by definition of the word. I have admitted to being wrong every time Ive been proven wrong. I have also never said that the other side doesnt have any good arguments. Ive heard a few on this subject.

[SteveB]

Who's old?

[phade]

That's the thing...

I don't think selfish vs. non-selfish determines right from wrong (or inclusion vs. non-inclusion in this case).

I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle. How do you least disrupt vertical bowhunters while at the same time making room for xbows? Maximize the opportunity while at the same time mitigating the risk. I think some of the dynamics are not similar to the compound vs. trad situation decades ago as context has changed (less access, fewer bowhunters v.s more, emphasis on mature bucks vs. any buck), while the apples to apples remains (inserting a weapon into another's season).

Some people try to argue that there is no disruption, some argue there is. Most people argue this point based on experience because stats are almost always questioned on this topic. In risk management, a perceived risk is as legitimate as a realized risk. I think for debate sake, increased disruption should be a given with crossbows based on that premise. In addition to my writing, my career is based on looking at data and intangibles and coming up with direction. In this case, I believe numbers indirectly show evidence that disruption occurs in some form - but I digress there. The problem is, that the "disruption" is perceived as being selfish.

I've hunted heavily in xbow states and I can say there is added pressure from it. Slob hunters abound in all groups no doubt, but if I could rank the % of slob hunters based on my experience: Firearms>Xbow>Vertical bow. I witnessed major "slob moves" the last two seasons in Ohio and I had to bite my lip at the bigger picture. Both were xbow hunters. I don't equate slob to illegal, but these were poor behavior. Again, everyone brings their own experiences into the topic, but answering the question needs to be the focus and not why someone comes from where they do and assigning right or wrong to it.

I don't think there is an easy answer here. xbow proponents are not happy unless full inclusion occurs and vertical bowhunters don't want infringement. I think more bowhunters would be open to limited inclusion along the lines of age/disability, but I think more xbow proponents still wouldn't be happy. That is one of the biggest things that kills me about it. Allowing the tool with its benefit (shooting) to those that need it the most seems prudent. I knwo that didn't happen with compounds, but again, I think the dynamics/playing field has morphed a bit as the hunting focus shifts toward today's landscape.