If You're Against Crossbows During Archery

[Doc]

And your theory is incorrect. I, and most likely others, am not disgruntled with the NYB over crossbows, its their arrogant, elitist attitude that I have a problem with. Their hypocrisy and underhanded tactics are also deplorable. Sure, theyve done some good, but not everything Hitler did was bad either.

And why would anybody ever listen to a line of rhetoric from somebody who knows absolutely nothing about the organization. The fact is that you are  a disgruntled crossbow supporter and it is pathetically transparent.

 

And by under-handed tactics, are you referring to the failed attempt by "crossbow backers hoping to bypass the legislative process by having a state budget amendment placed into the 2013-2014 spending plan that would leave any crossbow use in the hands of the DEC"? (a quote out of New York Outdoor News). Oh, I'm sorry that wasn't NYB.

[Doc]

Funny that when you are the one doing the name calling, its "appropriate and accurate", but when the shoe is on the other foot, the person doing it is "pathetic" or "immature" or something else that you come up with.

Yeah, by the way, I still haven't located that name-calling thing. I seldom get involved in that sort of thing. But if you can point out the occasion, I will certainly apologize for it if it is indeed an unfair and incorrect assessment.

[Doc]

NYB lost me when they decided to hold hands with the ML crowd and pushed for a ML season in bow season along with the youth season. Neither of those things are the end of the world but I feel a bow organization should not push for guns in the bow season.

The one thing that gets lost in all this is the fact that the organization's system worked exactly the way an advocacy organization should. The leadership was off-base with their proposal and the rank and file membership saw to it that the proposal was eliminated. So much for those that try to say that the NYB leadership ignores the will of its members.

 

The NYB leaders buckled to anti-NYB rhetoric that they were incapable of compromise and they mistakenly attempted to demonstrate negotiations and compromise. They were wrong. They were told. They dropped the plan. A picture perfect scenario of an organization reacting to member pressure ....  the way it should.

[A Sportsman]

I think most people are hunters first and bowhunters second. Not traditioanlists. That is why most use compound and not long bow. If cross bow is allowed, there goes the compound. And that bothers me. And I suspect others.

Also with so many things changing with our sport (food plots, trail cams, AR being rammed down your throat,etc.) It just comes off like another attempt to make things easier and lose part of the tradition. In 20 years hunting is gonna be buying a Fawn, tieing him to a tree and raising him til his horns suit your liking, and then firing a lazer beam at him.

[WNYBuckHunter]

again i'm not sure why, but that is for SZ only. Not the state.

 

oh and on crossbows?

 

winner, winner chicken dinner

 

The Gov promptly vetoed the bill

[WNYBuckHunter]

I think most people are hunters first and bowhunters second. Not traditioanlists. That is why most use compound and not long bow. If cross bow is allowed, there goes the compound. And that bothers me. And I suspect others.

Also with so many things changing with our sport (food plots, trail cams, AR being rammed down your throat,etc.) It just comes off like another attempt to make things easier and lose part of the tradition. In 20 years hunting is gonna be buying a Fawn, tieing him to a tree and raising him til his horns suit your liking, and then firing a lazer beam at him.

 

In response to the bold statement, where do you get this insinuation from? Where are the compounds going to go? That kind of thing sounds like a sky is falling type reaction, dont you think? Same argument when compounds were allowed, and the sky never fell.

[covert]

I think most people are hunters first and bowhunters second. Not traditioanlists. That is why most use compound and not long bow. If cross bow is allowed, there goes the compound. And that bothers me. And I suspect others.

 

 

Personally it doesn't bother me, because those people most likely have no business using a vertical bow anyway.  Most of that type are probably not putting in the practice that someone who bowhunts because they like to bowhunt is.  I shot instinctive with a recurve for years but didn't hold anything against the 80% letoff/lighted fiber optic sight guys for having their mechanical advantages.

 

I know this will probably come across wrong, but I'm not pro-crossbow because I particularly care about the handicapped anyway.  That seems to be the most common reason people give, but I am for crossbows in archery because I feel that they are archery tackle and as long as the other guy stays on his side of the fence, I don't care what kind of archery tackle he uses.  Doesn't impact me in the least.

[SteveB]

NYB.....I know more former members than I know current members and that is counting the current members on here. THeir spin on the corssbows and their success (or lack of) in holding members tells me all I need to know about them.

 

They recruit several hundred new members every year - but their overall membership never grows.

Hovers around 2000 total - about 1% of the total bowhunters in NY.

Bow hunters join to find out they have zero input on anything - only meeting is a once a year banquet with no regional meetings at all. Whole org is tightly run and controlled by a couple handfuls. 

There is no doubt why the turnover is so high.

[SteveB]

Great post Covert and a pretty close description of my take on it.

[A Sportsman]

Covert, you make a fair point. Maybe I am over emphasizing the advantages of the cross bow.and overestimating the amount of hunters who would take exception to sharing the woods with someone who is using a better (for lack of better word) hunting implement. But I disagree that the crossbow guys would have no business using a compound. Because as I said earlier, we are hunters first. I think In time we would lose compound bow hunters to x bows. Only my opinion...

[covert]

Covert, you make a fair point. Maybe I am over emphasizing the advantages of the cross bow.and overestimating the amount of hunters who would take exception to sharing the woods with someone who is using a better (for lack of better word) hunting implement. But I disagree that the crossbow guys would have no business using a compound. Because as I said earlier, we are hunters first. I think In time we would lose compound bow hunters to x bows. Only my opinion...

 

I think I may have not expressed the "no business" part correctly.

 

I also believe that there will be people who currently use compounds who will move to crossbows.  I just (based on experiences I've had with people I know) look at it like a certain percentage of those "crossovers" are people who currently only hunt with a compound because of the extra time they get in the woods and not because they are passionate about archery.  These people (the ones I know personally) are the type who dust off the bow the last week of September, shoot a handful of arrows across the lawn and call it good, then go out and shoot a deer in the guts (every year) and can't understand why. 

 

I do think that crossbows probably are easier to shoot accurately than a vertical bow.  I have never used one so I am just basing that on appearances, but I have hefted a couple and they were not something I'd be interested in lugging around.  Anyway, back on point; personally, if these particular people are going to be in the woods anyway, they might as well be using something that they can shoot accurately with the minimum practice they are willing to put in. 

 

Obviously we would all rather that they either didn't hunt with a bow at all or would take the time to get better, but unless there were to be created some sort of annual accuracy standard before you could get your archery tags (which opens a hole new can of worms) I don't see any way to ensure that.

[covert]

Wanted to go somewhere else but lost my train of thought.

Edited July 10, 2013 by covert

[Five Seasons]

In response to the bold statement, where do you get this insinuation from? Where are the compounds going to go? That kind of thing sounds like a sky is falling type reaction, dont you think? Same argument when compounds were allowed, and the sky never fell.

 

90% of current compound hunters will stay with it. But I'm not so sure about new hunters old and yound. You have an option at an easier and romanticized weapon by shows like the walking dead as a 14 year old (who is already in love with videogames and guns) and give him the choice between a bow and something with a trigger and scope? The numbers dwindle...

 

 

I know this will probably come across wrong, but I'm not pro-crossbow because I particularly care about the handicapped anyway.  That seems to be the most common reason people give, but I am for crossbows in archery because I feel that they are archery tackle and as long as the other guy stays on his side of the fence, I don't care what kind of archery tackle he uses.  Doesn't impact me in the least.

 

the same logic I hear when we debate helmets being required on motorcycles. It does impact you. You just don't see it. It changes legislation, it changes the mindset and if you believe the actions of the guy on the other side of the fence wont impact you, or your kids or your kids kids then you're naive my friend. Just like the guy who dies because he didn't have a helmet on does affect your insurance, the perception people have of motorcyclist and state laws. The crossbow hunter could affect the image of the traditional ethical and devoted archery hunter. It may become one that is common with the stereotypical deer camp gun hunter. You will have more guys climbing trees who shouldn't, more wild shots (because heck, all you have to do is pull the trigger and from what I've heard time and time again this is a weapon for someone who doesn't have time to practice) and with more hunters you could very well see more trespassers and poachers on your fence. Very easy to sneak in and out with a crossbow. Not so much with a gun. What if he brings his gun buddies in with crossbows and puts on drives? Wont affect you? Don't think it'll happen?

 

 

They recruit several hundred new members every year - but their overall membership never grows.

Hovers around 2000 total - about 1% of the total bowhunters in NY.

Bow hunters join to find out they have zero input on anything - only meeting is a once a year banquet with no regional meetings at all. Whole org is tightly run and controlled by a couple handfuls. 

There is no doubt why the turnover is so high.

 

i've asked to see NYCC member numbers a few times with no response. Curious as to how they compare and what they've done for the community other than advocate for crossbows. Recall I listed the achievement of the NYB. Also curious as to where you always get your magical unpublished number from. But I guess I should trust the numbers from someone who's very anti NYB? But if you are correct, I'd like to add that I've joined, left and rejoined the NRA a few times. Any organization that requires a fee will see these fluctuations. I left the Alden rod and gun club after a year because I moved. Not because I didn't like their club.

 

Edited July 10, 2013 by Belo

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Belo, I asked yesterday but I am sur eit got lost inthe pages....It appears fromthe listing you provided they haven't done anything really since 2008-2009. Are the youth camps and vet hunts still being done?

[growalot]

Culver ...wouldn't that be listed on their web page for you to see?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Culver ...wouldn't that be listed on their web page for you to see?

HIs link ws fromthe web page and that is why I asked. Nothing is really listed (except lobbying efforts) since then.

[WNYBuckHunter]

i've asked to see NYCC member numbers a few times with no response. Curious as to how they compare and what they've done for the community other than advocate for crossbows. Recall I listed the achievement of the NYB. Also curious as to where you always get your magical unpublished number from. But I guess I should trust the numbers from someone who's very anti NYB? But if you are correct, I'd like to add that I've joined, left and rejoined the NRA a few times. Any organization that requires a fee will see these fluctuations. I left the Alden rod and gun club after a year because I moved. Not because I didn't like their club.

 

 

Seeing as NYCC has been around for all of a year, their list of accomplishments and recruitment numbers are going to be lower than NYB at this point.

[WNYBuckHunter]

90% of current compound hunters will stay with it. But I'm not so sure about new hunters old and yound. You have an option at an easier and romanticized weapon by shows like the walking dead as a 14 year old (who is already in love with videogames and guns) and give him the choice between a bow and something with a trigger and scope? The numbers dwindle...

 

 

So in your estimates, 10% will move to a crossbow, which will more than likely (since we are doing nothing more than pulling numbers out of our butts anyway) include 95% of the guys that dont practice enough and shouldnt really be slinging arrows at deer anyway. Hows that a bad thing again???

 

[covert]

the same logic I hear when we debate helmets being required on motorcycles. It does impact you. You just don't see it. It changes legislation, it changes the mindset and if you believe the actions of the guy on the other side of the fence wont impact you, or your kids or your kids kids then you're naive my friend. Just like the guy who dies because he didn't have a helmet on does affect your insurance, the perception people have of motorcyclist and state laws. The crossbow hunter could affect the image of the traditional ethical and devoted archery hunter. It may become one that is common with the stereotypical deer camp gun hunter. You will have more guys climbing trees who shouldn't, more wild shots (because heck, all you have to do is pull the trigger and from what I've heard time and time again this is a weapon for someone who doesn't have time to practice) and with more hunters you could very well see more trespassers and poachers on your fence. Very easy to sneak in and out with a crossbow. Not so much with a gun. What if he brings his gun buddies in with crossbows and puts on drives? Wont affect you? Don't think it'll happen?

 

I'm against helmet laws and seatbelt laws too even though I always wore/wear them.    As far a tresspassers go, I don't think I'll need to be any more or less vigilant post-crossbow than pre-crossbow.  The people who are inclined to trespass, take wild shots, drink and drive, poach, and just be general all-around dinks are going to do it whether you let them hunt with spears or silenced sub-guns, ride mopeds or Ferraris. 

 

The only guy I've ever had to go hard on was a bowhunter and I didn't have any trouble catching him.  After I got the new fence and Posted signs up I didn't have any more trouble with trespassing.  Helps that my family has been in the area since a couple of them fought in the Revolution, but still.

 

I don't believe that just because someone is using a crossbow is going to negatively impact the " image of the traditional ethical and devoted archery hunter" anyway.  In my experience that generally only exists in the minds of people who have a history of experience with archery.  The image in the minds of most people I know who only gun hunt (unfairly I believe) is the one of finding dead or wounded deer with an arrow stuck in them after bow season ends.

[Five Seasons]

all fair points covert. I apologize if my post came across in a way that bowhunters are all great sportsman. I too have shot deer and seen deer with arrows sticking out. (probably those nasty illegal 3 blade rage heads ) but i've seen my fair share of equally bad gun kills/wounds. I guess I'm just hoping if they become legal they're not treated by new hunters as guns. That they can just take one out the day before archery, sight it in and head into the woods. I believe currently that's a problem with gun hunting and not as big of an issue with archers. In summary it may lead to more bad shots than there already are. I don't believe the good ethical gun hunter who practices and sights in his gun would do any worse with a crossbow. It's the gun hunter who doesn't that might pick up a crossbow that worries me.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Belo

[covert]

I was pretty sure that you weren't implying that all bowhunters are perfect, I just am not sure that I agree that the public perception is that they are more conscientious than others.  That is based on my personal experience so it may not be true for different areas.

 

I think what should help is that (I would hope anyway) if they were made legal for archery season that it would still be necessary to go through the archery course to use them during archery season.

 

I don't think our outlooks are really all that far apart in general.  Seems to me that the only real place we diverge is when we hit the legal/not legal wall.

[WNYBuckHunter]

all fair points covert. I apologize if my post came across in a way that bowhunters are all great sportsman. I too have shot deer and seen deer with arrows sticking out. (probably those nasty illegal 3 blade rage heads ) but i've seen my fair share of equally bad gun kills/wounds. I guess I'm just hoping if they become legal they're not treated by new hunters as guns. That they can just take one out the day before archery, sight it in and head into the woods. I believe currently that's a problem with gun hunting and not as big of an issue with archers. In summary it may lead to more bad shots than there already are. I don't believe the good ethical gun hunter who practices and sights in his gun would do any worse with a crossbow. It's the gun hunter who doesn't that might pick up a crossbow that worries me.

 

Well, it really ought to be a much smaller issue with archery if crossbows are legalized. I dont see it leading to more bad shots, they are easier to shoot, which should equate to more good shots. I just fail to see how that is a bad thing.

[Doc]

A lot of this stuff borders on saying that the vertical bow is not really a humane weapon because some of the people using them do not do so responsibly. There is the implication that more advanced weapons should be inserted into bow season and maybe even replace vertical bows to reduce wounding losses. I don't agree with that line of reasoning. I really don't care for where a little more of that bogus line of logic could lead if that banner were to be picked up by the anti-hunters and those that are on the fence about bow hunting. There is a fair representation of that attitude among gun hunters also who are fond of repeating unsubstantiated accounts of seeing deer running everywhere with arrows sticking out of them. Yes, if that line of thought had been prevalent back in the days prior to bow seasons, there probably would never have been a bow season in the first place. This is not a direction that like to see the crossbow controversy going.

[covert]

Unsubstantiated?  I have had deer in my fields with arrows in them.  My neighbor has pictures of one of them last winter with an arrow sticking out of him.  I have helped cut up deer with broadheads in them.

 

I haven't seen any argument that could be construed as saying that vertical bows aren't humane?  Is a compound not a more advanced weapon than a traditional bow?  Why do people use them?  Because they are easier to shoot accurately, giving the user a better chance to get a clean "humane" kill.  By allowing more advanced compound bows does that somehow imply that recurves and longbows are less humane?

 

 

[Doc]

Well look, I'm not going to call you a liar, but I will also say that every account that I have heard was unsubstantiated. I also noted that the people usually raving about the dozens of wounded deer were usually gun hunters who have a very vocal bias against bow hunters. Also I have talked to deer processors who claim that they have run across a few arrow-wounded deer over the years, but it is not really a significant number. Also, I log about as many hours hunting as anyone and have only found one un-recovered dead bow-killed deer. So I have to say that I generally regard these claims as substantially exaggerated. I make no claims that deer are not wounded and lost during bow seasons, just like I make no claims that the same thing doesn't happen during gun season. But what I have found is that the accounts of bow wounds are generally a larger target of exaggeration. 

 

I will repeat that I have to question a line of logic that says that we need more technology in bow seasons to make the sport more humane. I will also say that I have never heard anyone say that the reason they shoot a compound is to improve the humanity of bow hunting. And I hope I never do hear that kind of comment. One thing we don't need is people impugning the humanity of our equipment or suggesting that we need more technology in the sport to make up for those that hunt irresponsibly.