Here is one that will generate some debate.

[nyantler]

probably right about the poaching.. but we can't not make laws because we're afraid someone might break them.. if we did that we wouldn't have any laws or rules

[Gthphtm]

Another thing to consider is the genes  of the bucks in the area.In the past our group has taken the ones with deformed antlers first so there genes were not past on.

[nyantler]

careful with the deformed antler thing... in most cases deformed antlers are caused from injury to the antler during the velvet stage.. and as long as the damage isn't to the pedicle itself.. the rack will correct itself the following year. Its when you see the same buck with the same messed up rack for a couple years .. thats when you might cull that buck. Usually bucks are culled when they are older when they start to show their potential... a 3 1/2 year old with a small spindley rack might be a problem. a yearling with a goofy rack might grow to be a huge non-typical

[Bleitten04]

NY Antler

I understand your point about getting an age structure and not just growing big bucks.  I checked you websit and it seems you know quite a bit about deer a managment and I'm sure what you say is pretty true.  But isn't an age structure a good step towards big bucks.  Maybe thats why everyone is talking about big bucks?

[nyantler]

Absolutely.. its the bi-product of management that is most talked about.. I am just saying that in this thread I was trying to see what guys thought pertaining to the management aspect... Honestly I guess I can say it bugs me a bit that a lot of hunters harp on guys that hunt big bucks like its a sin.. when the truth that faced with the choice of small buck or big buck if both are standing in front of you broadside... 99.999999999999999999999999999% of the guys are gonna kill the big boy! So I don't get the argument of how its a bad thing to want big bucks whenever AR is discussed...

[nyantler]

oh! thanks for checking out the site.. hope you enjoyed it

[Larry]

Think about this only hunting doe’s for 3 years with over 550,000 deer hunters. Here’s what would happen to the deer population. The first hunting season we would kill over 150000 to 200000 antlerless deer this would include button bucks. In the spring you will see fewer fawns. The next season you will start to see more fawns then doe’s in the harvest. You start to see more bucks laying dead on the side of the road as they will have to travel farther to find doe’s. If there is a savvier winter you will see more bucks die do to the stress of the rut. In the spring there would be even fewer fawns. The 3^rd season the harvest would be primarily fawns. Now the buck hunt we will kill somewhere between 100000 to 150000 bucks and some big ones. What we have done is damage the deer so bad it will take 10 years or more to recover and it may never recover fully. We also cut the number of hunters by 40%. I guess PETA was right we will destroy hunting are selves.  PS read the new deer & deerhunting

[Bleitten04]

NY Antler

For your records I think that your site is very good a well informative with some nice stories!!!!

[nyantler]

Not getting your logic larry.. we have the same number of hunters now with doe tags available... nothing would change except maybe adjusting the number of does you could take in any given WMU each year.

[adk3006]

Not getting your logic larry.. we have the same number of hunters now with doe tags available... nothing would change except maybe adjusting the number of does you could take in any given WMU each year.

So if I'm understanding you correctly Joe, in areas where no DMP's are currently issued (this is where I hunt) there would be no gun season ??? ??  Seems to me this would decline license sales!

[Doc]

So if I'm understanding you correctly Joe, in areas where no DMP's are currently issued (this is where I hunt) there would be no gun season ??? ??  Seems to me this would decline license sales!

That is something that I have noticed on these forums. A lot of people have a lot of ideas about what should be done to herd management, but base it all on what they see in their own backyard and have no concept of the conditions of other parts of the state. Some of these sweeping ideas would have disasterous effects on both the herd and the activity of hunting in a lot of areas around the state. The good news is that the people who do create and execute the management of state herds are people who are charged with the responsibility on a statewide level. They understand that general statewide management rules do actually have rammifications in all of the various habitats and existing herd conditions. That's one of the reasons we placed some actual biological education requirements on their positions.

Doc

[nyantler]

Adk.. yes that might be the case....  Doc, I am not advocating any single statewide program... I would advocate taking a look at trouble areas first and start there... I just threw this question out there to see what guys reaction would be...

[biggamefish]

  It can't hurt to ask a question.  I don't think it would work I could see it hurting the deer population like Larry said.  IF now I said IF it was state wide those who would still hunt and couldn't hunt doe in there area now would move into another area and those hunters that still want meat and only shoot bucks now start shooting does it could be very devistating to some areas.  Now this is just guess but I don't think it would work.  Do I have the answer no but we asking and making suggestions are the way to try to work things out.  It will get what we want in the end. Maybe

[Bleitten04]

The dmp sales would have to go down.  IMO there would be more harevests of does beacuse some buck hunters would still want meat.  For people who hunt in areas where no DMP are issued I have no clue what could be done to keep you guys hunting.  As for decreasing license sales I thinkg that if you stop buying a license for this reason your really not a hunter IMO.  There's no reason why you can't go out and take a few does to fill the freezer for a few years.  I really don't know what I would vote if asked to on this.  I do feel it could work though if there was some significant research put into it.  Maybe some places you would still be able to take one buck and others you couldn't.  Every place is different and needs different managment according to what the deer population is and the buck to doe ratio. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

As for decreasing license sales I thinkg that if you stop buying a license for this reason your really not a hunter IMO. 

put yourself in another person's shoes. you are 65 and/or on a fixed income...you live up north and are 2 hours one way from an area that has DMP's. are you going to go? It is a tough call. The desire may be there but not the means

[adk3006]

As for decreasing license sales I thinkg that if you stop buying a license for this reason your really not a hunter IMO. 

put yourself in another person's shoes. you are 65 and/or on a fixed income...you live up north and are 2 hours one way from an area that has DMP's. are you going to go? It is a tough call. The desire may be there but not the means

Exactly Culver.  If you have a doe season only and there is absolutley no way you can get a DMP for the area you live/hunt why would you buy a hunting license.  The NZ covers a pretty big area meaning a significant amount of license sale could be lost.  ALso like someone said, maybe alot of people would start going to areas in the SZ because they get a DMP but this would create problems for people that have alway got DMP's for these areas because if the  amount of DMP's stay the same and more people apply this would mean more people would get denied.

[Isles323]

As to the original question......

That seems like a great idea. So many hunters pass up does all the time in hopes of taking anything with antlers. In my case, my uncles who own the property tat my buddy and i hunt on don't allow us to take does at all. We try to make them understand the necessity to take a few doe here and there for the good of the herd, but they wont budge.  > A change in the law might be the only thing that would make the more old fashioned minds understand the concept of management.

[nyantler]

See? now we are getting into some intelligent conversation and some good questions... this is how we as hunters can come up with good whitetail conservation plans. First we need to remember that what we want to accomplish.. which is make sure we keep the deer herds healthy based on their given habitat in a given area.. plus we have to remember that we need to maintain conservation revenue and keep hunters happy all at the same time.. tough feat to accomplish. Probably why I believe that education is the most important thing.. if hunters understand whats going on in the whitetail world in NY they might be more apt to do the right thing on their own without legislation.

[Isles323]

What do you think the best approach would be for my me and my buddy to take. We are the only two in guys hunting on the property who are under 45 years old and not off the boat from italy. The four owners are hard headed like you wouldn't believe..... what should i do?

[Larry]

I’m going to explain the logic it’s not logic it’s just what would happen.

Right now the deer harvest is spread over both sexes and all age classes. In 2009 the buck take was 102,057 the antlerless take was 120,741. Your plan would remove the buck take for  3 years  so hunter would be issued only antlerless tags and hunter will kill as many doe’s and fawns they can. The only thing that would happen is the deer herd would be damage to the existent that I would take years to repair. All because some people believe the buck to doe ratio is out of whack. There is no such thing as a 10 or 15 to 1 ratio where hunting takes place. Those who spout the BS are full of crap if it were that many doe’s then why the DMP’s cut were. Most who say there are too many don’t know the difference between doe’s and antlerless 

[Isles323]

I don't know about a 15 to 1 ratio, but i hunt in 4w and i had 8 doe around my stand while two other hunters on the property saw 4 other doe and two button bucks. We only have two pictures of other bucks on the property this year and thats with 5 game cameras across 245 acres. Hopefully ther are more bucks out there but we've only seen 4 major scrape sites so far.

[Bleitten04]

My comment was more towards the people who are just pissed because they can't shoot a buck!!!  I don't know what could be done about a situation where dmp's arn't sold.  Maybe a one buck per peron or one doe per person in those areas.  Again I really don't know.  I really feel like a few years of research would have to be put in to make something like this happen!!!

[Larry]

so with the bucks you have seen  and the ones on trail cam. you have a 1to 3 ratio which is what I said the ratio is where hunting takes place

[outdoorstom]

Personally, I would do the does only for 3 years. I have SO many does around here that it would definitely do the herd good to get their numbers down. The fact that there would be a ton of big bucks around later is a huge bonus. I have to agree with others here though that license sales would plummet, which would be bad for us all.

[5.9cummins]

Sooner or later something in the management of the NY herd will change regardless of if your for it or against it. The current management model is for restoring a deer population from a depleted point. Increasing deer numbers and a declining number of hunters is going to get to a breaking point. DEC will have to control deer numbers regardless of what the hunting population feels is the "right" way to do it. There are a lot of different things that could happen.

-Increased season lengths

-Some sort of AR to try and stimulate doe harvest

-Earn a buck program where you must shoot a doe first before a buck.

-Lottery buck tag with a "standard" doe tag

-Increased nuisance permits

-Bait and shoot

I don't know if anyone has been to some of the forested tracks in PA but it is amazing what an overpopulation of deer will do. In some areas they fenced portions of state land off to prevent overgrazing of the understory and stimulate secondary regeneration after it had been logged.

Inside the fence was a jungle outside you could see for great distances without any undergrowth.

There is going to be no simple solution either. You cant manage WNY, ADKs, and LI all in the same manor.

It might take decades before you see the change but it will happen or mother nature will take care of it for us with the likes of chronic wasting and blue tongue.