New Setback Rules proposed by Cuomo

[Doc]

Thats my point Doc, he supported this stuff last year and nobody raised a huge fuss about it. Now this year he supports the same things and everyone is flipping their lids. Why has it even been made a headline this year and last year it wasnt?

Ok, I see you need to get the last word in, even when arguing who knows what for who know what reason..... lol. So rather than bore everyone with our usual game of trivia to no real end, I will end this nonsense on who said what ,when. Its all stupid stuff anyway and has no bearing on my point. If you need to believe that Cuomo's courting of hunters has nothing to do with his attempts to blunt the hatred over his midnight raid on gun owner's rights, knock your socks off. I figure by this time thinking people have kind of arrived at the same conclusion that I have.

 

 

By the way, I thought you were suggesting that I do a search on your supplied "title of the thread". That's why I was surprised when the result came up to be this thread. Sorry about apparently misinterpreting the end of your message.

 

Go look at the threads about it from last year.

The title of the thread is

"New Setback Rules proposed by Cuomo"

 

          

 

[mike rossi]

The DEC cannot directly propose bills, they need someone in the legislature to do it for them. The 5 year management plan just outlines the issues the DEC will be trying to tackle in that 5 year span.

 

I do think that the other entities like the conservation council, etc assist the DEC in some of the proposals.

 

Hold on, I am not asking if the DEC can introduce bills, off course they can not. Are you saying you think they can lobby the state senate and assembly as well as the governor to sponsor bills? I am not sure about that, that is my question, do you know for a fact if they can?

 

Also, I wouldn't say the CC "assists" the DEC. I think is more accurate to say they at best give their input and at worst mouth off with unfounded opinions and/or demand ridiculous things. I tried to make my inquiry about the CC's role as clear as possible and cant do any better, try to re-read it and if still doesn't make sense don't worry about it.

[mike rossi]

Ok, I see you need to get the last word in, even when arguing who knows what for who know what reason..... lol. So rather than bore everyone with our usual game of trivia to no real end, I will end this nonsense on who said what ,when. Its all stupid stuff anyway and has no bearing on my point. If you need to believe that Cuomo's courting of hunters has nothing to do with his attempts to blunt the hatred over his midnight raid on gun owner's rights, knock your socks off. I figure by this time thinking people have kind of arrived at the same conclusion that I have.

 

 

By the way, I thought you were suggesting that I do a search on your supplied "title of the thread". That's why I was surprised when the result came up to be this thread. Sorry about apparently misinterpreting the end of your message.

 

Doc,

 

For all I know you might be dead right that this is courting of hunters. I started looking at this a different way however, and wanted to get the opinion of others or verification. I think something I said offended you and I know what it is, I should have phrased it differently, it wasn't meant to offend or criticize you or anyone else.  I am the first to admit I really don't know what the heck is going on! I am just trying to connect the dots!

[mike rossi]

Two people replied here stating the laws of Pennsylvania and New Jersey. Lets talk about that... No problems someone says? Just a few weeks ago a deer running around a subdivision with an arrow stuck in its jaw made national headlines.... Crossbow advocates were blaming it on "traditional equipment", who are they calling "wedge drivers"? Both of those states prohibit Sunday hunting and sportsmen in those states have contested that for as long as I can remember in my nearly 50 years. If those states were interested in increasing hunter opportunity or even controlling overpopulated deer, wouldn't Sunday hunting be a real good option. Yes, I know that Jersey makes an exception the Sunday Blue Law for archers, please don't nit pick to avoid the germane point. We in NY take Sunday hunting for granted, but I will tell you if you lost that day you would feel it big time... I will tell you something else: Jersey is the nations most densely populated state talking people... In contrast NY has over 8 million acres of PUBLIC deer habitat open to hunting. Not to mention private land. NJ firearm deer season is six DAYS long. In NY you can hunt deer from September to mid December and if you include the town of Ithaca and Long Island you can hunt them longer!! A deer a day in Ithaca! And Ithaca still has a "deer problem"... Even Pennsylvania's firearm deer season is only 10 days long...

 

NJ has had very good mourning dove populations for many decades. Only in recent years has NY seen big numbers. (Yes some smart guy will call me and cite that in the EMU Jerseys numbers have declined slightly - but guess what that's an fluctuation within the normal range - no biological significance.) Jersey hunters have long been interested in a mourning dove season since the 70s or earlier. Two or three years ago NJ finally designated the mourning dove a migratory game bird and there has been no action to set a hunting season. In the interim , Jersey did things nobody ever would believe or want: A bear season, a cross bow season, Hunting deer over bait, a 50 yard set back for bow hunting. Around 1981 NJ began requiring trapper education, however only one or two years later NJ banned the leghold trap and legalized snares. NJ has required people for IDK 70 years - to apply for a card with the police where you live to buy long guns and possess them.... People have hold me they waited over a year to get their card even though state law mandates the police issue or deny within 30 days. You also when in a vehicle have to case your gun or lock it in your trunk in Jersey. Jersey also has one of the most powerful and numerous anti hunting/anti trapping lobbies in the world, constantly telling the world that only 1% of NJ residents hunt. No thanks, lets not emulate New Jersey...

 

Pennsylvania? Well they have allowed mourning dove hunting for many years and they recognize hunting with dogs and training of hunting dogs very well in their regulations. They also fought tooth and nail along with the feds to win federal court decisions regarding the management of mute swans while NY sat back, rolled over to the antis and only after the work was done in the courts revamped its mute swan plan - which is currently open for public comment by the way but you only have about a week so get going... PA's Sunday Blue Law prohibiting hunting requires a legislative change, the PGC does not have the authority to change it - sound familiar NY? Yes they allow crossbows - however when hunting small game and waterfowl in PA I encounter many archers, but yet to see someone using a crossbow. A PA WCO (game warden) told me I could find a good buck near one of their buildings and that 150 feet was legal (he mistaken me for someone who eats deer). But he also cautioned me that unlike NY if you cross through a safety zone , even with a cased gun or bow in route to a location - that is considered hunting and you would be in violation. When I asked about the game land parking areas close to houses or buildings he did the "law officer shuffle" and changed the subject... PA also has a year-round season on coyotes and hunters there are still whining that the coyotes are the root of the turkey population decline they, like NY are both currently experiencing. A year round coyote season - yeah ok, that's the way to win public acceptance of hunting and keep access open... While doing nothing to help turkey populations...

 

 

[Doc]

I'm not exactly sure how anyone here knows what kinds of problems the 50 yard set-back has caused in other states as far as actual incidents and attitudes toward hunters of residents subjected to that. Heck I don't even know of all the incidents that happen within my own neighborhood, so I have no idea how anyone could make any statements like that about other states. I can't say that the 50 yard setback definitely is causing problems, and I doubt there is anyone here that can credibly say that it is not.

[Doc]

Doc,

 

For all I know you might be dead right that this is courting of hunters. I started looking at this a different way however, and wanted to get the opinion of others or verification. I think something I said offended you and I know what it is, I should have phrased it differently, it wasn't meant to offend or criticize you or anyone else.  I am the first to admit I really don't know what the heck is going on! I am just trying to connect the dots!

Mike, the message that you quoted was in response to another member. As far as I know, we are both on the same page on this issue.

[mike rossi]

I'm not exactly sure how anyone here knows what kinds of problems the 50 yard set-back has caused in other states as far as actual incidents and attitudes toward hunters of residents subjected to that. Heck I don't even know of all the incidents that happen within my own neighborhood, so I have no idea how anyone could make any statements like that about other states. I can't say that the 50 yard setback definitely is causing problems, and I doubt there is anyone here that can credibly say that it is not.

 

True but we don't always have history as a tool to evaluate risk. In your opinion is a 50 yard setback a high, moderate or low risk? Then factor in what is at stake even in low risk "gambles". You might bet a dollar with bad odds but even with really good odds would you bet the farm? Some people would, I am not one of those people...

[WNYBuckHunter]

Ok, I see you need to get the last word in, even when arguing who knows what for who know what reason..... lol. So rather than bore everyone with our usual game of trivia to no real end, I will end this nonsense on who said what ,when. Its all stupid stuff anyway and has no bearing on my point. If you need to believe that Cuomo's courting of hunters has nothing to do with his attempts to blunt the hatred over his midnight raid on gun owner's rights, knock your socks off. I figure by this time thinking people have kind of arrived at the same conclusion that I have.

 

 

By the way, I thought you were suggesting that I do a search on your supplied "title of the thread". That's why I was surprised when the result came up to be this thread. Sorry about apparently misinterpreting the end of your message.

 

First off, whos arguing? Second, I seperated the two statements. You asked who was insinuating that Cuomo came up with the proposals, I pointed out the name of THIS thread, not a crossbow thread from last year. Didnt think Id have toexplain that one lol.

[G-Man]

I don't think besides recovery, this is an issue. With surburban sprall reaching further out and the increase in anti hunters , i see it as a viable option for hunters to remove deer in a surburban location with estate type lots 3- 10 acres. This is the area of largest growing deer population. without this option you are left with innefective contraception ideas, or bait and shoot. (which i see being legalised following the implimentation of this set back rule). they most likly will allow baiting in these area as well to help eliminate the recovery problem.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Hold on, I am not asking if the DEC can introduce bills, off course they can not. Are you saying you think they can lobby the state senate and assembly as well as the governor to sponsor bills? I am not sure about that, that is my question, do you know for a fact if they can?

 

Also, I wouldn't say the CC "assists" the DEC. I think is more accurate to say they at best give their input and at worst mouth off with unfounded opinions and/or demand ridiculous things. I tried to make my inquiry about the CC's role as clear as possible and cant do any better, try to re-read it and if still doesn't make sense don't worry about it.

 

Sure they can, how do you think they get their proposals put into bills, etc? There is a branch of the DEC called the OLA (Office of Legislative Affairs) that works with the state legislature. There are also comittees within the legislature that deal with DEC stuff.

 

http://www.dec.ny.gov/about/652.html

 

The DEC takes input from many sources and organizations, including the CC. Do they play a major role? Not usually AFAIK, but the input they do provide pops up on different subjects from time to time.

[mike rossi]

Sure they can, how do you think they get their proposals put into bills, etc? There is a branch of the DEC called the OLA (Office of Legislative Affairs) that works with the state legislature. There are also comittees within the legislature that deal with DEC stuff.

 

http://www.dec.ny.gov/about/652.html

 

The DEC takes input from many sources and organizations, including the CC. Do they play a major role? Not usually AFAIK, but the input they do provide pops up on different subjects from time to time.

 

That is excellent information, thank you!

[growalot]

 

(which i see being legalised following the implimentation of this set back rule). they most likly will allow baiting in these area as well to help eliminate the recovery problem.

 

I thought that a while ago ...until PA found another CWD buck in the wild herd this year....

 

http://news.yahoo.com/tests-confirm-cwd-case-pennsylvania-151800139.html

 

I doubt NY DEC will allow what they consider high risk activity.. especially the latest being a buck also so close to the NY border...

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I don't think besides recovery, this is an issue. With surburban sprall reaching further out and the increase in anti hunters , i see it as a viable option for hunters to remove deer in a surburban location with estate type lots 3- 10 acres. This is the area of largest growing deer population. without this option you are left with innefective contraception ideas, or bait and shoot. (which i see being legalised following the implimentation of this set back rule). they most likly will allow baiting in these area as well to help eliminate the recovery problem.

That is what they did in Connecticut in some areas. The coastal areas with the residential / high deer populations allow baiting.

[mike rossi]

First off, whos arguing? Second, I seperated the two statements. You asked who was insinuating that Cuomo came up with the proposals, I pointed out the name of THIS thread, not a crossbow thread from last year. Didnt think Id have toexplain that one lol.

 

Title  doesn't say the governor is merely in support of a bill, it says he proposed it. Maybe this time around it is his proposal or his proposal is slightly different than another one ???  If we move away from semantics, it doesn't really matter because this bill is related to one of the DEC's strategies in its deer management plan. As you just explained a legislative affairs branch exists within the DEC. That branch  undoubtedly discussed this with the governor and the lawmakers to get them to craft and/or support a bill which will allow them (DEC) to implement the set back reduction.

 

The info you provided about the legislative affairs division of the DEC, considered along with the strategies outlined in the management plan, allows us to assume with some degree of certainty the DEC had a role in driving this legislation. Sportsman, organizations, and others may have also lobbied state lawmakers and the governor as well.

 

Since we know that now, lets shift this discussion away from the legislation and focus on the 5 year deer management plan:  Who recommended this strategy as part of the 5 year deer management plan? Was it DEC deer management team? Or was this strategy, although adopted by the DEC, actually the recommendations of organizations or the public? We should examine that answer to determine if this strategy was adopted by the DEC largely because of political pressure. We all don't agree on the lack of wisdom in this strategy, but many of us will agree that the DEC should not be coerced.

 

I have to admit, even though I am fully aware that other states have adopted reduced setbacks to control suburban deer; and that I am also aware that state wildlife agencies interact and share ideas; I am so personally biased against this move I cannot help thinking wildlife professionals would not choose this without political pressure.

[bubba]

He mentioned he wanted to move forward with it in the state of the state and put it in the budget to be included in the legislative process.  

[mike rossi]

He mentioned he wanted to move forward with it in the state of the state and put it in the budget to be included in the legislative process.  

One of these days I need to figure out the relationship between the budget and the legislative process. Don't tell me that means some budget committee  decides if a given bill is worthy of the money it costs to move it forward for vote?

[bubba]

it will pass through.  As I understand it if it passes in the budget, it is pretty much a done deal.  The changes he made was to give the control to the dec and not the legislature as most dec laws are done.  That is the part that killed this last time.  it never got out of committee to be voted on.  If this clears as suggested it simply means the dec will have the say on it.  Now that is not always a great thing either. They will cut hack and chop away at it to make it perfect for every wmu etc.  And they will mull the finer points until they are sick of mulling it too.

[mike rossi]

it will pass through.  As I understand it if it passes in the budget, it is pretty much a done deal.  The changes he made was to give the control to the dec and not the legislature as most dec laws are done.  That is the part that killed this last time.  it never got out of committee to be voted on.  If this clears as suggested it simply means the dec will have the say on it.  Now that is not always a great thing either. They will cut hack and chop away at it to make it perfect for every wmu etc.  And they will mull the finer points until they are sick of mulling it too.

Are you saying that Cuomo's proposal differs in that it includes language that gives the DEC, instead of the legislature, the authority to set the regulations regarding set backs? That could pave the way for the DEC to be authorized to set additional en con laws. Not a fan of the set back idea, but in the greater scheme of things  I change my mind, I would probably support it with that stipulation.

[bubba]

that was the difference as I understand it.  I am sure someone will dispute me.  Most things the dec wants have to go through legislation and they make dec laws.  This along with the crossbow will be left to the dec to regulate. It serves two purposes.  1 if it does not work out Coumo can blame dec.  if it does work out he can take credit and try to get votes with it.  

Edited January 31, 2014 by bubba

[mike rossi]

If I understand it correctly, I like it, but it wont earn my vote. I am still interested in the origin of the set back strategy and whether or not political pressure had a role in its adoption into the 5 year deer management plan....

[bubba]

Oh he will not get my vote either. It was part of the plan in the past. Remember that just because the dec gets control will not necessarily be better. They are loaded with bureaucrats too.

Sent from my LGL35G using Tapatalk 2

[WNYBuckHunter]

He mentioned he wanted to move forward with it in the state of the state and put it in the budget to be included in the legislative process.  

 

It was part of the budget proposed last year, and did not make it through then.

[bubba]

which was why I said it needed to pass this year before anything happened.  The difference is this year he changed it to the control of the dec not the legislature as I said.  Last year it went form budget to committee to get pushed around to be passed and never left committee.  Some are on top of things just as much as you.  

Edited January 31, 2014 by bubba

[WNYBuckHunter]

Oh dont get all butt hurt because I pointed something out.

[mike rossi]

Well the DEC adopted the set back change - perhaps reluctantly, perhaps enthusiastically. But overall the DEC is better equipped to make en-con decisions than the legislature. I posted a you tube video on here earlier last year of a hearing of the en-con committee, I don't recall if it was the senate or the assembly. As they voted on a muzzleloader issue, one committee member spoke up and said excuse me "what is a muzzle loader". The other lawmakers simply gestured like they were loading a smoke pole. He said 'Oh, OK and then, I assume, voted.

 

Keep in mind that was a vote among the en-con committee. Do you think the general floor vote is better informed than the committee about hunting, firearm, and conservation issues?

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2014 by mike rossi