Taking the plunge

[phade]

Let me just ask this one more question. What are you physically using as a draw check that tells you to stop drawing the string if you are not using a physical touch-point as an anchor. And don't just say "the bow's draw length". I am talking about the physical feel or sensory trigger that tells you this is far enough. Here's what I am getting from your explanation. I am picturing that you are using the feel of the wall of the force/draw curve to tell you to stop drawing back, and the anchor (which is not really an anchor) is mere the default location. I will assume that you have the bow set up to make that happen when the nock is aligned with your eye. Is that what you are saying?

 

I am only asking because what I am getting from your explanation is perhaps the most bizarre set-up that I have ever heard described. And frankly, you really have my curiosity going. I have been around archers all my life, and have encountered an awful lot of them, and it has always been that you chose a repeatable, consistent anchor somewhere on your face and the bow's draw length was chosen to accommodate that.

 

I know that I am dragging out this discussion a lot longer than I should, but I am always open to learning new things and new ways of doing things, and I must admit that this part of the discussion has really piqued my interest.

 

Draw stops tell you pretty quickly the bow has hit the end of the cycle.

 

My Z28s are only 60lbs and the hold is real low, like 8 lbs at full draw. It has two posts (stops). I can darn near draw the bow and hold the bow out sideways. The wall is immediately felt/reached without the need for any anchor context at all. Once it "goes no more" that's all there is to it.

Edited February 26, 2014 by phade

[Five Seasons]

did any body point out that Phade and Moog are buddies?

 

*stirs pot*

[phade]

did any body point out that Phade and Moog are buddies?

 

*stirs pot*

 

 

We both posted the above at the same minute and both said the same thing. It's a conspiracy.

[moog5050]

We both posted the above at the same minute and both said the same thing. It's a conspiracy.

 

 

LOL - great minds ....

 

Belo, what does my friendship with Phade have to do with the fact that DL doesn't change when you alter your d-loop?  Nothing, but thanks for pointing out that useful tid bit.

[jjb4900]

Ok, so I've taken deer with shotgun, rifle, pistol, and muzzleloader.  Wife gave me the go-ahead to buy a bow with our taxes and complete the cycle.  I've never shot a bow before, but there was a time that I'd never shot a gun before too, so I know I can do it if I put in the time to do it right.

 

I'm going to a couple bow shops this week to see if they have any used bows at decent prices.  What are some things to look for and to stay away from?

as you just found out, the most important thing to stay away from is advice from the internet...........

[Doc]

You are discussing compound bows, not recurves or long bows, correct?  Every compound I have ever shot has draw stops or cables stops.  They stop the bow from being drawn further when at full draw.  When I hit the wall, I know I hit the wall.  I anchor with my first knuckle below the hole in my ear and my nose touching the string - which puts the nock below my eye because I have the correct bow for my DL.  IF I wanted to anchor further back, I would increase my release length or d loop, not my DL because that would put the arrow nock further back than it should be.  Again, MY DL is the same, the d-loop or release only alter anchor point.

 

And for those that didn't take the time to read this ridiculously long thread, the point was that the length of your d-loop or release does not change what is the correct DL for a person.  That's all.

 

I really have to work today so off I go.

Well, that explains it. I have never had a bow with draw stops on it. So naturally absolutely none of that effects anyone who is buying a bow that doesn't have draw stops. That would have been a nice little detail to mention that would have shortened that part of the conversation by a lot. So meanwhile back to those that have the fixed anchor point instead of draw stops ...... lol.

[Doc]

as you just found out, the most important thing to stay away from is advice from the internet...........

Actually that is not true. For those that were not interested in merely flaming, it was a very interesting discussion about a lot of the archery jargon that a newcomer should be trying to become acquainted with. There are a lot of things to be learned when people simply stop and read what is trying to be said. I wouldn't hesitate to ask advice here, and have done exactly that on several occasions.

[moog5050]

Well, that explains it. I have never had a bow with draw stops on it. So naturally absolutely none of that effects anyone who is buying a bow that doesn't have draw stops. That would have been a nice little detail to mention that would have shortened that part of the conversation by a lot. So meanwhile back to those that have the fixed anchor point instead of draw stops ...... lol.

 

 

Now that is funny.  I guess I assumed all along that you shot a modern compound and all of my comments were directed towards that.  I am not sure if anyone makes a compound without stops today.  Could be, but I have never seen one.  Agreed that a bow without stops (like a recurve) does not have a set or established DL.  I assume the OP is buying a modern compound that will have stops.

 

I am now trying to wrap my mind aorund the idea of a compound without stops - what would cause it not to over rotate and lock up if drawn too far, like one of my bows would without stops?  Interesting.  I always thought that even older compounds had cable stops.

[Doc]

Now that is funny.  I guess I assumed all along that you shot a modern compound and all of my comments were directed towards that.  I am not sure if anyone makes a compound without stops today.  Could be, but I have never seen one.  Agreed that a bow without stops (like a recurve) does not have a set or established DL.  I assume the OP is buying a modern compound that will have stops.

 

I am now trying to wrap my mind aorund the idea of a compound without stops - what would cause it not to over rotate and lock up if drawn too far, like one of my bows would without stops?  Interesting.  I always thought that even older compounds had cable stops.

Yes, there was compound archery before draw stops.....lol. And I'm sure that a whole lot of people are still using them. I know my bow isn't all that old, and if the OP is considering any used bows as he indicated at one point, there is a high likelihood that he will wind up without draw stops, especially on the lower end models. If that winds up to be the case it may be good that he has been told a bit about how to handle the situation.

[dbHunterNY]

holy heck this went off the rocker! lol

 

Doc's first post was good.  I'll add that because a bow is cheaper that doesn't mean it's a beginner bow for you.  you buy the best equipment you can afford and stick with it.  There's always going to be something better, something new, or something this guy used to kill a deer. 

 

there are bows with all types of specs, but old bows and new bows with the same specs aren't the same.  stick with a bow between 31-35" axle to axle length and a brace height of close to 6.5" or more will help and have worked for a long time despite more recent trends.  for example, shorter length bows are nice in treestands and blinds but are much easier to cant, thus throwing off your arrow right or left.  bows with brace heights shorter than 6.5" are real fast but less forgiving for accuracy when you're not having a good day shooting with the best form.  you should find plenty of bows meeting these specs that are IBO rated at 320 fps and up which is more than enough to kill anything.  get a bow that's adjusted down to allow you to comfortably draw it while sitting in a chair with your feet up off the floor.  you shouldn't be squirming around or pointing it at the ceiling while drawing either.  the bow should be adjustable up in weight from there, as you'll gain strength and skill to draw more weight after shooting (regardless of your current physique).

 

keep in mind new model year bows come out from late fall through the start of the new year.  at this time look for left over model year bows or newer used that just got traded in and you'll save a lot of money.  bows are like common cars as they depreciate as fast.  also keep in mind many shops dump left over inventory on Ebay.  also online forms like archery talk are good just keep in mind many on there like to tinker with bows and some tinkering folk don't know what they're doing.  similarly as said bows can be adjusted all out of whack at big box stores.  I know this as I've fixed half a dozen bows from them.

 

with a whole draw length debate here's what I have to stay... keep in mind some bows require you to buy new cams and strings to change draw length.  others are adjustable with some having everything you need (PSE brand for one) and others requiring you to only buy cheap small replacement modules (Hoyt brand).  ask about this as you might not want to back yourself into a corner if draw length needs to change.  if it's adjustable you can pass it on to a friend, family member, or resell it much easier.  also regarding draw length buying the right release will help you out.  it's much easier to shoot with one than without.  your best most flexible option for hunting is an index finger trigger release with a wrist strap.  get a buckle strap versus Velcro, so it's quiet and it'll be adjusted to the same fit every time you put it on.  also some can have the length adjusted by removing allen screws and re-aligning screw holes.  this will help get your anchor point just right, even when things like d-loops slightly change from having them replaced.  one I shoot and recommend is the TRU Ball Beast II release but there are other good one out there.

 

still lots to learn and much to type but you're good for now.  hopefully you don't get bit by the bow bug like me and have a bow for every purpose and everything to work on them. lol not that it's a bad thing.

[moog5050]

Yes, there was compound archery before draw stops.....lol. And I'm sure that a whole lot of people are still using them. I know my bow isn't all that old, and if the OP is considering any used bows as he indicated at one point, there is a high likelihood that he will wind up without draw stops, especially on the lower end models. If that winds up to be the case it may be good that he has been told a bit about how to handle the situation.

 

 

so on a bow like this, what stops one from overdrawing it to the point of lockup - or can that be done if its overdrawn?

[shawnhu]

so on a bow like this, what stops one from overdrawing it to the point of lockup - or can that be done if its overdrawn?

I'm going to answer this one. The anchor point.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

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[phade]

There has to be something that stops the cams from rolling over to the point of derail or locking up. It sure ain't the anchor point.

 

I am pretty sure other stops were used before post style draw stops. Draw stops were patented in 83 or so.

Edited February 26, 2014 by phade

[jjb4900]

I'm going to answer this one. The anchor point.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

I have to agree.....can't see anyone arguing that one.

[phade]

I have to agree.....can't see anyone arguing that one.

 

Anchor point has nothing to do with the draw cycle stopping. If that was the case, hunters and archers would be locking up their bows and/or derailing left and right. There has to be a mechanism on the bow that prevents the bow from being drawn back of some sort on a compound bow. At some point the cams are supposed to stop rolling.

[jjb4900]

Anchor point has nothing to do with the draw cycle stopping. If that was the case, hunters and archers would be locking up their bows and/or derailing left and right. There has to be a mechanism on the bow that prevents the bow from being drawn back of some sort on a compound bow. At some point the cams are supposed to stop rolling.

what stopped that from happening on older type bows without stops, was having your bow set up properly, as long as your draw length was set properly it's not a problem...if you had a bow with too short a draw length it could be overdrawn, but that's pretty much a problem of the past.....anchor point has something to do with draw cycle stopping because that's where the shooter stops drawing, I'm sure there are some with older type bows without stops who are not drawing the bow back properly.

Edited February 26, 2014 by jjb4900

[phade]

what stopped that from happening on older type bows without stops, was having your bow set up properly, as long as your draw length was set properly it's not a problem...if you had a bow with too short a draw length it could be overdrawn, but that's pretty much a problem of the past.....anchor point has something to do with draw cycle stopping because that's where the shooter stops drawing, I'm sure there are some with older type bows without stops who are not drawing the bow back properly.

 

So, how would DL be set then, if the bow never stops drawing except for the anchor point...in theory the draw length wouldn't need setting, no?

[jjb4900]

So, how would DL be set then, if the bow never stops drawing except for the anchor point...in theory the draw length wouldn't need setting, no?

DL was set by having your bow set up properly for you, I have a pretty old PSE that is set for 29" and that's how it should be shot, however it easily has another inch or so of play where it can be drawn back farther because it has no stops.....not sure if that is bad for the bow or not, but that's how many older bows work....I now have a new Hoyt with the stops and that can't be done.

[phade]

DL was set by having your bow set up properly for you, I have a pretty old PSE that is set for 29" and that's how it should be shot, however it easily has another inch or so of play where it can be drawn back farther because it has no stops.....not sure if that is bad for the bow or not, but that's how many older bows work....I now have a new Hoyt with the stops and that can't be done.

 

I guess I just don't get that, because if there is an inch of play beyond the 29" how was it set up properly?

[jjb4900]

another reason to either have the knowledge to set your bow up properly or find someone to help you......how many add a D-Loop, change releases or make any other changes and don't adjust to it?

[jjb4900]

I guess I just don't get that, because if there is an inch of play beyond the 29" how was it set up properly?

simple, the bow doesn't have stops........it's supposed to be shot at a 29" draw, the extra draw must be gained by rolling the cams past where they should stop or by flexing the limbs past where they should stop. It's obviously not proper, but that particular bow has the ability for someone to slightly overdraw it.....I'm assuming your bow has stops, if they were removed, I bet you would be able to draw the bow past where it is intended to stop.

Edited February 26, 2014 by jjb4900

[moog5050]

I wasn't trying to start a new argument.  Just curious.  So, JJB - on that old PSE, if you had someone draw the bow who had a 3" longer draw than you, would the bow lock up?  Surprises me that any manufacturer would design a bow that could be locked up by simply pulling it too far.  Not arguing its not true because I simply have no idea.  I have done it while tuning after removing draw stops and forgetting to reinstall them before drawing and there is a certain pucker factor in getting that locked bow back to the press before it explodes (or so you think).  lol

[moog5050]

I'm going to answer this one. The anchor point.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

http://facebook.com/XCaliburLightingSystems

 

 

Thanks Shawn.  I certainly understand someone could stop drawing before it locks up, but my question really was, if the bow is pulled beyond the intended DL, would it lock up?

[jjb4900]

I wasn't trying to start a new argument.  Just curious.  So, JJB - on that old PSE, if you had someone draw the bow who had a 3" longer draw than you, would the bow lock up?  Surprises me that any manufacturer would design a bow that could be locked up by simply pulling it too far.  Not arguing its not true because I simply have no idea.  I have done it while tuning after removing draw stops and forgetting to reinstall them before drawing and there is a certain pucker factor in getting that locked bow back to the press before it explodes (or so you think).  lol

I don't think you could get that much more of a draw out of it and at that point you would probably have to excert a noticeable more amount of strength to get it that far back ....but easily an inch without noticeable problems, not the way it's meant to be shot, but on older style bows, one could easily be slightly under or overdrawing their bow and that can be easily done with the addition of an accessory that should warrant an anchor point change, and if someone isn't aware that some type of change is necessary they're either not getting the max out of the bow or over stressing it.........luckily draw stops have eliminated a lot of that.

Edited February 26, 2014 by jjb4900

[jjb4900]

and to jump back to the original poster who was asking about buying a used bow, if he was to pick up an older bow from a  less than knowledgeable person, that was supposed to be shot at a 29" draw length and he needs a 30" draw length, he could easily get something that may be wrong for him......add to that string stretch and a bow that can be pulled a little ways past what it's set at and he could think he's getting a bow that fits him when he's really not.