DMP going up another 17% ....

[phade]

Anecdotal accounts like you describe are statistically insignificant.

The DEC employs wildlife biologists and deploys a scientific method in terms of collecting statistics and calculating populations...

Again...no one else has a plan, you're just a bunch of bitching trolls and "scary government" haters.

And Mike Rossi is the ONLY guy on this site that backs up his political talk with real political action, not bluster and self-delusional bs.

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It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that doing the same thing time and time again will give you the same results. They haven't changed a THING since they screwed up last time. Their response is "We screwed up. Let's issue more tags again."

 

Other states have much better models to work with. Ohio's system being one of them. Perfect? No, but also not stuck in the dark ages like NY. NY ranks in the top 3 or top 5 (I forget which) of agencies with deer-dedicated personnel. Yet, their arguably at the bottom of the heap from a management perspective. I know Jeremy is a good guy. He is handcuffed by the politics. It still doesn't change the fact they continue to do the same thing and expect different results or different engagement from the hunting public.

Edited July 24, 2014 by phade

[Meat Manager]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that doing the same thing time and time again will give you the same results. They haven't changed a THING since they screwed up last time. Their response is "We screwed up. Let's issue more tags again."

Other states have much better models to work with. Ohio's system being one of them. Perfect? No, but also not stuck in the dark ages like NY. NY ranks in the top 3 or top 5 (I forget which) of agencies with deer-dedicated personnel. Yet, their arguably at the bottom of the heap from a management perspective. I know Jeremy is a good guy. He is handcuffed by the politics. It still doesn't change the fact they continue to do the same thing and expect different results or different engagement from the hunting public.

If you want to point to specific elements of other state agencies management plans and apply them here fine...but you better point to NJ or PA if you are talking about the same population density in terms of BOTH deer and humans.

Ohio or any other Midwestern or southern states model does not apply here in this very densely populated state.

But you haven't pointed to anything specific and as I recall abhor the idea of EAB which Jersey uses.

Again no plan just a politically lazy hater.

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[phade]

If you want to point to specific elements of other state agencies management plans and apply them here fine...but you better point to NJ or PA if you are talking about the same population density in terms of BOTH deer and humans.

Ohio or any other Midwestern or southern states model does not apply here in this very densely populated state.

But you haven't pointed to anything specific and as I recall abhor the idea of EAB which Jersey uses.

Again no plan just a politically lazy hater.

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You must not realize that Ohio's hunter density is actually one of the highest in the country and just behind the states most people think of, including NY. People automatically assume the density doesn't compare, but shockingly....it does.

 

NY ranks 3rd in hunter density, and Ohio ranks 5th. That's right, 5th. 2 spots behind NY. Fact.

 

PA

RI

NY

WI

OH

 

I'm not overlooking anything. Note that two of the top five pressure states are also two of the highest ranking for big buck states - with WI being the #1 state for book bucks for a long time.

 

So again, how is our pressure different from theirs that makes our ability to produce high quality hunting similar or even ballpark on their level? Ding Ding Ding....

 

 

Ohio's management system is fluid. They make changes when needed. Rarely is the the doe management done in the same fashion for more than a year or two, and oftentimes, they make annual changes (not just upping or downing tags) ranging from zone alotments, inserting seasons and varying lengths.

 

People say Ohio isn't comparable to NY. Bullcrap. It has near similar hunter density. It has similar soil quality (Draw a line from NE Ohio to SW Ohio). Top left habitat has soil quality akin to eastern NY. Bottom right is equivalent to western NY. You could practially lift Ohio's laws and put them in NY and we'd be way better off, even with no modifications or tweaks. I'm sure some could be made, but in large, Ohio outclasses NY with a similar enviornment and density.

 

Human density has no bearing on doe management or numbers management other than distance laws/safety laws. None of which apply to the DEC throwing more tags at a sinking ship.

Edited July 24, 2014 by phade

[Meat Manager]

You must not realize that Ohio's hunter density is actually one of the highest in the country and just behind the states most people think of, including NY. People automatically assume the density doesn't compare, but shockingly....it does.

Ohio's management system is fluid. They make changes when needed. Rarely is the the doe management done in the same fashion for more than a year or two, and oftentimes, they make annual changes (not just upping or downing tags) ranging from zone alotments, inserting seasons and varying lengths.

People say Ohio isn't comparable to NY. Bullcrap. It has near similar hunter density. It has similar soil quality (Draw a line from NE Ohio to SW Ohio). Top left habitat has soil quality akin to eastern NY. Bottom right is equivalent to western NY. You could practially lift Ohio's laws and put them in NY and we'd be way better off, even with no modifications or tweaks. I'm sure some could be made, but in large, Ohio outclasses NY with a similar enviornment and density.

Human density has no bearing on doe management or numbers management other than distance laws/safety laws. None of which apply to the DEC throwing more tags at a sinking ship.

Human density is the key factor on how many deer the public deems acceptable in terms of car accidents and farm damage...

#1 in terms of who gets to say how many is too many. That's what human density means and that is why they are going crazy trying to get your lazy large ass to shoot more does.

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Edited July 24, 2014 by Meat Manager

[phade]

Human density is the key factor on how many deer the public deems acceptable in terms of car accidents and farm damage...

#1 in terms of who gets to say how many is too many. That's what human density means and that is why they are going crazy trying to get your lazy fat ass to shoot more does.

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You keep throwing spaghetti on the wall to see what sticks.

 

Bottom line is you are acting like a blind mouse following an agency that is doing the same thing as before when it caused a major mismanagement of the deer resource.

 

You didn't even know we had a big issue with over-issuing tags ten-twelve years ago. You didn't even know Ohio has a comprable hunter density. You sir, should look in the mirror before casting stones.

 

And, they are going crazy. Doing the same thing and expecting different results. How about actually doing some management instead of mismanagement? Do something other than "let's throw tags at them" again.

Edited July 24, 2014 by phade

[phade]

Stay classy Meat Manager, stay classy.

[stubby68]

doing the same thing year after year and expecting different results is crazy. That is what NY dec does. They never try anything different just the same old same old and then say nothing is helping. I dont think any of us know the answer but we all can see that what has been being done isn't it. Why do we have to compare NY state to other states when it comes to deer and deer hunting. This is NY not Ohio WI,OR IL.We have our own deer and own problems why trythe solutions that the ose states use? Find something that works here. I don't have the answeres but something different would be nice.

Yes in some areas more does need to be shot. To many guys are out there just for the big bucks and that doesn't help. In some areas deer are over populated in most of the areas I hunt they are scarse. 15 years ago there were more people hunting for meat and we didn't have a problem with deer population. There were plenty to be seen when hunting yet not so many that people complained they were a problem.Fast forward to today we have more trophy hunters letting everything go and not enough meat hunters keeping things under control. Changeing the I only shoot big old bucks thinking would be a good place to start

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Look at the states the are..Big Buck Hunters Dream..like WI,Oh,ill..Do you see them complain about to many deer?  Do you not see them in the top 5 of both record books every year. If some would just look at what others are doing and follow suit things may get better. There are ways to get the deer shot in the areas that need it>>>By Hunters if Ny would just change things up a bit. It will never happen in this state. Look at big Ag in Ny, Look at the lost business in Ny. Ny is not only piss poor on their deer management but piss poor at every part of running a state.

 Why do you think laws mean nothing to people in Ny? They/We/Me are going to do whatever it takes to get ourselves and families to the next point. Ny sure is not going to help you get there!

[steve863]

Fast forward to today we have more trophy hunters letting everything go and not enough meat hunters keeping things under control. Changeing the I only shoot big old bucks thinking would be a good place to start

 

 

I've always said that the trophy hunting mentality is the worse thing to ever happen to hunting.  It has screwed things up in so many ways, that it isn't even funny.  Forget about shooting does that need to get shot.  Pretty soon it will be impossible to find a place to hunt ANYTHING unless you cough up some big $$.  And before people say that there will still be state land available, not everyone will fit on state land.  Plus, a lot of state land is such poor habitat compared to private land, that most hunters won't want to waste their time hunting it.  You talk about what's wrong with hunting?  Trophy hunting is the #1 problem.  Like killing that big buck will enhance their manhood or something?  Give me a break!

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I've always said that the trophy hunting mentality is the worse thing to ever happen to hunting.  It has screwed things up in so many ways, that it isn't even funny.  Forget about shooting does that need to get shot.  Pretty soon it will be impossible to find a place to hunt ANYTHING unless you cough up some big $$.  And before people say that there will still be state land available, not everyone will fit on state land.  Plus, a lot of state land is such poor habitat compared to private land, that most hunters won't want to waste their time hunting it.  You talk about what's wrong with hunting?  Trophy hunting is the #1 problem.  Like killing that big buck will enhance their manhood or something?  Give me a break!

Thats a joke if i ever heard one. Why is it that states that are nothing but trophy states have no problems ny state has? They have been trophy states for years. But you are right on the big hunting. It wont be long and if you find yourself on the wrong side of the line you will be without a place to hunt unless you write the check but then guess what? We wont have a deer problem because it will be us managing our lands and not the state!

 If i think 10 does need to be takin and the sate only gives me 5 tags what do you think is going to happen?   Its a money world my friend and you either grab yourself some or sit back and watch everybody else grab it!

[steve863]

Thats a joke if i ever heard one. Why is it that states that are nothing but trophy states have no problems ny state has? They have been trophy states for years. But you are right on the big hunting. It wont be long and if you find yourself on the wrong side of the line you will be without a place to hunt unless you write the check but then guess what? We wont have a deer problem because it will be us managing our lands and not the state!

 If i think 10 does need to be takin and the sate only gives me 5 tags what do you think is going to happen?   Its a money world my friend and you either grab yourself some or sit back and watch everybody else grab it!

 

 

What are you implying?  If they are given 5 tags, how will be able to take 10 on their own land legally?

 

Yeah, I know it's a money world, and hunting won't be a free ride anymore, BUT it has to be within reason.  You may get some hunters giving you $10K to shoot your penned deer, but there aren't too many willing to cough up that kind of money just for a chance to hunt a bit.  It will all go down in shambles before you have ALL hunters spending small fortunes to shoot a stinking deer once a year, I can assure you of that.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

What are you implying?  If they are given 5 tags, how will be able to take 10 on their own land legally?

 

Yeah, I know it's a money world, and hunting won't be a free ride anymore, BUT it has to be within reason.  You may get some hunters giving you $10K to shoot your penned deer, but there aren't too many willing to cough up that kind of money just for a chance to hunt a bit.  It will all go down in shambles before you have ALL hunters spending small fortunes to shoot a stinking deer once a year, I can assure you of that.

Steve you need to get out more. I have offers and many offers of good cash for the rites to my 700 acres and no thats not fenced acres! My 7 acre farm has nothing to do with this thread!  People want bone. If you think this hunting world is not changing big time you are fooling yourself. How about food plot seeds and the such? All about big deer!!!  Thats where we are at in hunting and it will continue.

 The people with money will be hunting the good deer and the rest will be on that state land you were talking about! just a fact!!

 

As far as the 5 tags 10 deer?  Its my land and i will manage it!!!  Not worried about the ones that tell me how i should manage it!!

[steve863]

I don't need to get out more, you are exactly what I was talking about when I was referring to the trophy mentality that is ruining hunting.  It's nothing but a money game to you, and at the same time you are even promoting illegal activity, since you know damned well that you can't kill 10 does if you only have tags for 5.  You may own the land, but you DON'T own the game on it.  I guess owning some deer in a pen makes you think you own the free ranging ones also?  LOL

 

 

 

[growalot]

Well I responded last night to that not too subtle sarcasm but stupid kindle dropped it...

 

So.....I do not know how old you are...but I lived through  their Oooppps Ohh crap herd drops...I came from a hunting family and remember how the hunting was back in the early 60's ...with much more open land, than they have now, to hunt. Remember where it got better and we ...me include.... could round up 4 guys and get 1 doe tag. It then went down over the years to 1...then 2  and if you hunt certain areas possible 1 to 2 more...and that has fluctuated, in certain units, way too much over the years.  I can't speak to any other state for I do not know their topography...but here there can be a world of difference in say 8M where they still ...this year have a low chance of getting even 2 tags ..yet here I sit 1 mind you, 1 mile from region 8M in 8N and I have them practically begging me to get 4 tags... Now I lived in 8M for many years it is very diverse and the only close calls with car/ deer I've had is out by Groveland.  I've never seen a shortage there or in Piffard where I lived and hunted...worked our restaurant as a teen for the 4 am and 9pm dinner hours where hunters pulled in for breakfast then coffee on the way home with their deer....Here in 8N on our hill doe are plentiful but so are hunters.. We all know that. wE take them accordingly to the gluttens that show up once a year to get their money's worth.  the ppl that live here year around and ACTUALLY KNOW what is happening with deer in the area factor this food and weather in...This is where the problem is..... input from land owners living on the properties...not hunting groups...clubs...statistics...but real info on specific areas within a unit.

 

You know the DEC wanted me to do a survey...I said great not a problem ...happy to...they sent me one for 8H...A unit I have never hunted...I called and they said 8 H was the only unit they wanted info on...Really ? then send your paper work to a hunter that gets tags for unit 8H or better yet lives there...they tend operate as a Cluster....well you fill in the dots.

Edited July 24, 2014 by growalot

[phade]

Well I responded last night to that not too subtle sarcasm but stupid kindle dropped it...

 

So.....I do not know how old you are...but I lived through  their Oooppps Ohh crap herd drops...I came from a hunting family and remember how the hunting was back in the early 60's ...with much more open land, than they have now, to hunt. Remember where it got better and we ...me include.... could round up 4 guys and get 1 doe tag. It then went down over the years to 1...then 2  and if you hunt certain areas possible 1 to 2 more...and that has fluctuated, in certain units, way too much over the years.  I can't speak to any other state for I do not know their topography...but here there can be a world of difference in say 8M where they still ...this year have a low chance of getting even 2 tags ..yet here I sit 1 mind you, 1 mile from region 8M in 8N and I have them practically begging me to get 4 tags... Now I lived in 8M for many years it is very diverse and the only close calls with car/ deer I've had is out by Groveland.  I've never seen a shortage there or in Piffard where I lived and hunted...worked our restaurant as a teen for the 4 am and 9pm dinner hours where hunters pulled in for breakfast then coffee on the way home with their deer....Here in 8N on our hill doe are plentiful but so are hunters.. We all know that. wE take them accordingly to the gluttens that show up once a year to get their money's worth.  the ppl that live here year around and ACTUALLY KNOW what is happening with deer in the area factor this food and weather in...This is where the problem is..... input from land owners living on the properties...not hunting groups...clubs...statistics...but real info on specific areas within a unit.

 

You know the DEC wanted me to do a survey...I said great not a problem ...happy to...they sent me one for 8H...A unit I have never hunted...I called and they said 8 H was the only unit they wanted info on...Really ? then send your paper work to a hunter that gets tags for unit 8H or better yet lives there...they tend operate as a Cluster....well you fill in the dots.

 

8H also happens to be where the regional HQ is.

 

I participated in deer surveys for about 4-5 years. I had to drive around to the fields in the area I hunt at dusk and count the deer and break them up into categories. I got some neat reports from them on it. I'm sure they incorporated this info into their system. But there is still alot to be learned and done here in NY.

[Doc]

This really a fun topic. We have the DEC defenders, and the DEC critics/skeptics. I personally don't know just who is right here, and the truth likely lies somewhere in between. I will say that there has been hard historical evidence that the DEC statistical models seem to have flaws, with some less than stellar results. And of course it is the DEC that seems to be the only ones with credible, official, and degreed, wildlife management education. With those sort of credentials, they can say just about anything, and we are supposed to nod our heads and agree with whatever they choose to tell us. Cloaked in a shroud of technological worship, the tendency is to say they are right as long as the rest of the world is not armed with the education to prove them wrong.

 

One thing I will say is that while the DEC sits in their offices playing with mathematical and statistical calculations, it is the hunters that put their feet on the ground each year in every acre of hunting habitat, and when they say that there has been dramatic changes locally in their area from one year to another, I tend to put a quite high level of credibility in those observations. On the other hand, it has to be admitted that while hunters may have a firmer grasp on local population trends, they generally are very, very light on practical, remedial, management plans. So it does come off as whining without any positive solutions. That is probably the least useful situation to have going for us. 

 

What really comes out of all this is that managing a statewide deer herd, is really a lot more difficult than anyone is willing to admit. Add in the political aspects of deer management and the idea that management plans have to be all things to all people, and really, you have to give the DEC credit for getting it as close to correct as they do.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I don't need to get out more, you are exactly what I was talking about when I was referring to the trophy mentality that is ruining hunting.  It's nothing but a money game to you, and at the same time you are even promoting illegal activity, since you know damned well that you can't kill 10 does if you only have tags for 5.  You may own the land, but you DON'T own the game on it.  I guess owning some deer in a pen makes you think you own the free ranging ones also?  LOL

Its all about where a person wants to be. You see i want to be at the top of the game and if that game involves money then so be it. If you think your so called old style of hunting is going to last the test of time, guess again. A person can sit back and whine about how it used to be or you can blaze your own trail. I didnt get what i have today by being told how/what and when i should do something.

 

People want my land up here because they want big deer. People want my land that borders Letchworth because they want big deer. Thats just where huntings at n todays world

 

As far as harvests on my property. Why would i listen to the same ones that fail when managing their property? Most large landowners in my area do what needs to be done to insure they have great property and great hunting regardless of what the state thinks!

 

The taxes are paid and the choices are made!

[Doc]

Its all about where a person wants to be.

Where I want to be is the point where I see my hunting as "recreation". I don't want it to be some kind of source of stress, or some form of do-or-die competition. I don't want it to be something that I "work" at like an occupation. I want it to be a hook back to our heritage and culture and to maintain some form of identity with the past and where we come from. I want it to be a source of relaxation and connection with nature. I don't run away from technology, but I don't want the whole activity to become all about technology. I want my results (success or failure) to be as much about my own personal actions and efforts as I can arrange it within the limits of practicality. I'm not looking to be some hunter hero or TV star or noted expert. I'll leave that to those that want hunting to become their career. More power to them, but that's not where I want to be.

[SteveB]

Open admission that one would willfully poach. 

Speaks volumes to character.

[Nomad]

One can kill ten or more legally. Super sportsman is 5 ,my area giving 2 additional doe tags for 7, add in 2 dmaps ,up to 9 ,then if you own crops the nuisance permits will bring you over 10 easily .oh I think guys can sign over doe tags as well so you can do it with out the nuisances permits.

Which is nice since,gutting them on hot summer nights is no fun......

Edited July 25, 2014 by Larry302

[growalot]

I still have two farms...one next to us and one across the road from us...No doe allowed both over a hundred acres...One sits right next to a QDM property...lol

[steve863]

One can kill ten or more legally. Super sportsman is 5 ,my area giving 2 additional doe tags for 7, add in 2 dmaps ,up to 9 ,then if you own crops the nuisance permits will bring you over 10 easily .oh I think guys can sign over doe tags as well so you can do it with out the nuisances permits.

Which is nice since,gutting them on hot summer nights is no fun......

 

 

Maybe in your area you can get all these extra doe tags and dmap's, but there are plenty of areas where you don't.  In lots of areas, you are lucky to draw a tag every other year.  Those who do draw them will not be giving them away to others either.

[steve863]

Its all about where a person wants to be. You see i want to be at the top of the game and if that game involves money then so be it. If you think your so called old style of hunting is going to last the test of time, guess again. A person can sit back and whine about how it used to be or you can blaze your own trail. I didnt get what i have today by being told how/what and when i should do something.

 

People want my land up here because they want big deer. People want my land that borders Letchworth because they want big deer. Thats just where huntings at n todays world

 

As far as harvests on my property. Why would i listen to the same ones that fail when managing their property? Most large landowners in my area do what needs to be done to insure they have great property and great hunting regardless of what the state thinks!

 

The taxes are paid and the choices are made!

 

 

I've got to say that you have a VERY bizarre view of hunting and where you'd like to see it go.  I fully know that things are changing, and I can accept change.  Although, I surely will not be going the route you want hunting to take.  I'll sooner give it up and so will many others.  In the end you will be left with NOTHING also.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Where I want to be is the point where I see my hunting as "recreation". I don't want it to be some kind of source of stress, or some form of do-or-die competition. I don't want it to be something that I "work" at like an occupation. I want it to be a hook back to our heritage and culture and to maintain some form of identity with the past and where we come from. I want it to be a source of relaxation and connection with nature. I don't run away from technology, but I don't want the whole activity to become all about technology. I want my results (success or failure) to be as much about my own personal actions and efforts as I can arrange it within the limits of practicality. I'm not looking to be some hunter hero or TV star or noted expert. I'll leave that to those that want hunting to become their career. More power to them, but that's not where I want to be.

Thats a nice speech and very true from our days gone by but thats just it..gone bye-bye. Such as the 55 cents pack of newports and 99 cent  six pack of genny lite beer from our days past. None of that is coming back. A person can still try and live that way themselves and live in the past but will be past by quickly. Everything in this world is changing and for the ones that dont see or believe where hunting is going has blinders on. In say 5 years when alot of this generation stops hunting and with no new hunters coming in it will be turned into a pay to play game!!  You have a choice on what end you want to be on.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I've got to say that you have a VERY bizarre view of hunting and where you'd like to see it go.  I fully know that things are changing, and I can accept change.  Although, I surely will not be going the route you want hunting to take.  I'll sooner give it up and so will many others.  In the end you will be left with NOTHING also.

Thats not bizarre my friend....Thats the real world!  You may very well be one of the ones left without and give up because of the binders you wear. It will get along fine!  In the end there will be the ones that survive and thrive and then there will be the others!

 

NOTHING you say? How can this be?  Almost 1000 acres at my disposal split between 2 of the better hunting parts of the state and a thriving business that is bursting at the seams. Trust me. In the end it will not be me with nothing because i dont sit on my hands and complain or listen to what others say that i should or should not or can and can not do!  Sorry, Not in the dna!