Rifles in NYS

[Doc]

Our County (Ontario) has submitted a bill to the NYS legislature relative to allowing the use of rifles in the lower part of Ontario county. Actually it has gone to Albany s few months ago. I know the process is slow because we have unsuccessfully tried it a couple of times already.

My question is: has anyone heard how this bill is progressing. Another question is: does anyone know of a web-site that assists in tracking these bills. I'm sure there is one, but I havent found it yet.

Doc

[rag742]

You could contact your favorite Assembly Person or Senator and ask them if they could add you to a LSR Alert.  What this does is contact you automatically by E-Mail, each time the Bill progresses.

[Doc]

Thanks ..... I'll try that. But the last official word that I heard was that it was buried on the desk of the Governor waiting for signature. I just hope it didn't get mixed in with those 6000+ vetoes that he signed....lol.

Doc

[WNYBuckHunter]

Theres a site that you can find bills and their current state so to speak. Iposted it for the crossbow bill, let me see if I can find it again.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Here ya go

http://www.nysenate.gov/legislation

[fasteddie]

My son has property in Yates County and I won't hunt there during gun season . You can now use rifles there . His property backs up to 1800 acres of State land . In the past during gun season (shotgun at the time) , it would sound like a gun battle on the State land . I was concerned about how it would be during rifle season . Apparently it was okay .

[Doc]

My son has property in Yates County and I won't hunt there during gun season . You can now use rifles there . His property backs up to 1800 acres of State land . In the past during gun season (shotgun at the time) , it would sound like a gun battle on the State land . I was concerned about how it would be during rifle season . Apparently it was okay .

Over here in Ontario County, I have the same concerns, but I also would like to start hunting deer with a rifle. The old 12 guage can be a pretty ornery thing to shoot, and forget about target practice. 4 or 5 slugs each year to ensure that the scope has not moved and I'm more than happy to call it quits until a deer is in front of me. I really don't like that. I would prefer to be able to spend some time playing with a gun each year before hunting, but that shotgun just won't let me. If this bill ever gets through, I'm thinking of a nice calm .243 so that I can spend hours at the bench and get the familiarity with my deer gun that I feel happier about rather than getting the crap beat out of my shoulder with the 12 guage canon.

However, I am a landowner and I do have a house in a rather vulnerable spot where hunters taking a long shot (200-300 yards) across the neighboring field might just poke a hole or two in my livingroom wall. The deer have quite often snuck down the hedgerowin years past.

So I never could develop a real strong opinion one way or the other. Pretty much I have just let the issue go whatever way the majority want it and I will live with whatever consequences.

But we seem to have a bit of a problem getting this law through the system. Errors in wording killed it once already when it was at the Governors desk. They had another go at it which got all screwed up. Now it looks like they might have it right, but it's taking forever. I tried checking it out on the internet, but they have had this thing in and out of the legislature so many times, it is hard to tell which bill is which. It has a jillion different bill numbers and counting. So far I haven't found anything that says that it was even sent to the governor yet. But that doesn't mean that it hasn't. Any way ...... we'll see how it all turns out.

Doc

[Lawdwaz]

My son has property in Yates County and I won't hunt there during gun season . You can now use rifles there . His property backs up to 1800 acres of State land . In the past during gun season (shotgun at the time) , it would sound like a gun battle on the State land . I was concerned about how it would be during rifle season . Apparently it was okay .

I have hunted State Game Lands in PA for almost 30 years along with many of my friends.  We are all still alive.  The woods are crawling with people and most get out without a scratch.  I'd be more concerned about driving  to and from your hunting area. ;D

[Doc]

You say MOST????? ...... lol.

Doc

[Lawdwaz]

[Doc]

Is there any agency in NY (or any other state for that matter)that breaks down hunting accidents by weapon. That is, how many occur using a shotgun (per capita), how many with a rifle ..... a bow ...... a muzzleloader ..... etc.? I have looked as best as I can on the internet and haven't found anything that tries to do that kind of analysis. Back when the debate was going on here in Ontario County, I wanted to see if there was any way that a little science and fact could be entered into the debate, but it seems that everyone relies on theories and emotional guessing games. It's too bad, it seems that that sort of info could be gathered so when these issues come up somebody could really point to actual numbers and statistics for a change.

Doc

[sits in trees]

Is there any agency in NY (or any other state for that matter)that breaks down hunting accidents by weapon. That is, how many occur using a shotgun (per capita), how many with a rifle ..... a bow ...... a muzzleloader ..... etc.? I have looked as best as I can on the internet and haven't found anything that tries to do that kind of analysis. Back when the debate was going on here in Ontario County, I wanted to see if there was any way that a little science and fact could be entered into the debate, but it seems that everyone relies on theories and emotional guessing games. It's too bad, it seems that that sort of info could be gathered so when these issues come up somebody could really point to actual numbers and statistics for a change.

Doc

wow a die hard tough, do it the hard way John Wayne kinda guy like you Doc looking to find the easy way out by using a rifle, my GOSH ???

[bpb]

Is there any agency in NY (or any other state for that matter)that breaks down hunting accidents by weapon. That is, how many occur using a shotgun (per capita), how many with a rifle ..... a bow ...... a muzzleloader ..... etc.? I have looked as best as I can on the internet and haven't found anything that tries to do that kind of analysis. Back when the debate was going on here in Ontario County, I wanted to see if there was any way that a little science and fact could be entered into the debate, but it seems that everyone relies on theories and emotional guessing games. It's too bad, it seems that that sort of info could be gathered so when these issues come up somebody could really point to actual numbers and statistics for a change.

Doc

Yep sure is, the DEC compiles a list every year. In fact, as I recall meatsticks posted this information on the old empire forum. You guys sure forget easy, that is, all the info & links meatsticks posted.

Every hunted ed instructor alos has the list.

[wztirem]

Is there any agency in NY (or any other state for that matter)that breaks down hunting accidents by weapon. That is, how many occur using a shotgun (per capita), how many with a rifle ..... a bow ...... a muzzleloader ..... etc.? I have looked as best as I can on the internet and haven't found anything that tries to do that kind of analysis. Back when the debate was going on here in Ontario County, I wanted to see if there was any way that a little science and fact could be entered into the debate, but it seems that everyone relies on theories and emotional guessing games. It's too bad, it seems that that sort of info could be gathered so when these issues come up somebody could really point to actual numbers and statistics for a change.

Doc

wow a die hard tough, do it the hard way John Wayne kinda guy like you Doc looking to find the easy way out by using a rifle, my GOSH ???

Emotion tends to get in the way of sound science and sound statistical analysis.

[Doc]

Is there any agency in NY (or any other state for that matter)that breaks down hunting accidents by weapon. That is, how many occur using a shotgun (per capita), how many with a rifle ..... a bow ...... a muzzleloader ..... etc.? I have looked as best as I can on the internet and haven't found anything that tries to do that kind of analysis. Back when the debate was going on here in Ontario County, I wanted to see if there was any way that a little science and fact could be entered into the debate, but it seems that everyone relies on theories and emotional guessing games. It's too bad, it seems that that sort of info could be gathered so when these issues come up somebody could really point to actual numbers and statistics for a change.

Doc

Yep sure is, the DEC compiles a list every year. In fact, as I recall meatsticks posted this information on the old empire forum. You guys sure forget easy, that is, all the info & links meatsticks posted.

Every hunted ed instructor alos has the list.

So I guess you can simply recall the links to that info that meatsticks supplied. Or maybe you can quote the info that he posted. I will admit that I have forgotten all that and since that forum is gone, so are the links. Since you are not one of the guys who "forget easy", maybe you could post a link to one of those sources. I'd appreciate it.

Doc

[Doc]

Emotion tends to get in the way of sound science and sound statistical analysis.

You bet! That discussion has been going on hot and heavy around the county for a long time, and I have yet to see one shred of actual data. I did find a study sponsored by PA that concluded that the lethal distance of shotguns is farther than rifles (mostly because the projectile tends to hold together longer after impacting trees, brush, etc. But some of that was a bit hard to swallow and some of the assumptions that they used may or may not have represented real hunting conditions. I kind of thought somebody would come up with something that simply said that in areas where rifles are used, there is no difference in accident rate per capita than in shotgun only areas. Hey, maybe nobody has ever pulled those kinds of statistics together.

However, I found that there were no shortages of assumptions and theories. I may have been the only one with an "I don't know" opinion ..... lol.

Doc

[fasteddie]

" I don't know " either . I havn't heard of many accidental shootings with rifles . There have been a few erratic shots going into home .

Two year's a go , a hunter was shooting at a deer north of Rt 104 in Ontario , NY . He fired a few shots at a deer that was running south of him . The hunter shot a hole through the front window of Phil's Automotive Shop that is on the south side of Rt 104 so the slug (shotgun) traveled across 4 lanes of traffic and uphill . Phil's son , Mike had walked past the window a few seconds earlier . The slug passed through a couple of thin walls , hit a steel beam and dropped . The shooter was arrested .

Phil standing next to one of the slug holes .........

[fasteddie]

Last year two young men were hunting with a group that was doing a deer drive in the town of Arcadia . They had seen several deer in an open field and fired a number of shots toward a trailer park . One round entered an occupied modular home in the park. The slug went through an exterior wall and came to rest in the master bedroom . Both hunters were arrested and released and scheduled to return to court at a later date .

This was done with a shotgun . I wonder how much worse it may have been with a rifle .........

[WNYBuckHunter]

My old house in West Bloomfield had 3 slug holes in the back of it and a window with a slug hole. Luckily, it was just in the downstairs garage and they had happened before I moved in there. Now mind you, there was a hill directly behind the house that was just about as tall, if not a little taller than the house, so who knows where those slugs came from. I know the group that hunts the land behind there is really into doing drives and opening up on any deer they see. I got permission from the land owner to hunt there, but only did so a few times for one season. Ive not run across too many groups of slob hunters like those guys.

[Doc]

What would be interesting is to study some of the rifle incidents and ask the question whether they could have possibly happened if a shotgun had been used. That kind of info would really be useful when Southern zone counties are considering whether to allow rifles or not for deer seasons. That info wouldn't even have to be just NYS. But I don't think anyone is actually collecting any data of that sort anywhere.

I did hear a couple of incidents in 2008, in NYS that involved rifles one of which clearly would not have happened with a shotgun. This was a case in Marshall, NY, of a rifle bullet traveling 400 yards, entering a house and passing through a mattress of a crib that was occupied by an infant just a short time earlier. There was another incident involving a fatality in Swan Lake, NY, with a 4 year old girl victim that happened with a rifle, but was close enough that it probably would have likely happened even if a shotgun had been used. That's the kind of data that I'm talking about that would be useful if someone were taking the time to compile it. At least decisions could be made based on some kind of numbers instead of just theory, opinion and supposition.

I find it a bit un-nerving that you guys so easily could come up with occasions when shotguns slugs penetrated occupied buildings. That means that the shooter was close enough to be within shotgun range. You have to wonder how these incidents might multiply if you have most of the deer hunters using weapons that are commonly used at 200-300 yards and farther. Considering that most of the time these kinds of incidents never even make the papers, And perhaps there are other house-hits that nobody even recognizes as slug holes, you have to wonder just how often this actually happens.  You would have thought that that question would have made it worth somebody conducting a study just to get a few numbers to help make an educated decision.  They study everything else. I guess instead we are going to conduct that study in real-time with new incidents. Time will tell I guess, but I wonder if anyone will really pay attention. That seems to be the only way to guage the safety impacts of the rifle decisions. We have to let some time go by and then perform a body count ..... lol. What a way to make decisions eh?

Doc

[WNYBuckHunter]

The scariest thing about the slug holes in the back of my house was there was 2 huge propane tanks against the back of the house less than 2 feet away from the holes. That house wouldnt be standing if the slugs had gone a couple of feet to the right.

[fasteddie]

The Ontario Rod & Gun Club range was shut down for rifles , pistols and slug guns for about 1 year . A homeowner who resides on Putnam Road (about 1 mile morth of the range) was playing catch with his daughter . A 3 year old was running around in the yard . They never had any fear when they heard gun shots as it was a common occurance . Early one evening , the home owner said he heard a "pfffffftttttt" and a noise like someone threw a stone at the pool . He looked and saw water coming out of a hole in his pool . He took the kids in the house and put them in the basement and called 911 to report what happened . They told him to wait at the house and he said Bulls--t , they're still shooting .

When he got to the range , two a-holes were shooting AR-15's John wayne style and spraying the woods . The guy laid on his horn but they were wearing ear protection . He got out and ran toward the closest guy waving his arms . The guy stopped shooting and waved to his buddy . A trooper showed up as well as the President of the club . They all drove over to the house on Putnam . The home owner pulled the cover back off the pool , climbed in and gave the bullet to the Trooper .

One of the shooters said he would pay to have the damage repaired as his family runs a restaurant / bar on Lake Road in Webster . Then this piece of crap backed out and told the homeowner that it was the Club's problem . A real classy guy !!!  > .. > .. >

The guy had his membership revoked and neither one is welcome back .

We all had to go through a safety certification in order to use the range after that .

Anyway , the two shooters had shot over the top of a high berm , through a large wooed area and managed to put a hole in a swimming pool almost one mile away . Oh yeah , they said each of them had fired 2 1/2 thirty round clips . There were 2 holes in the target at the berm . All they got was a slap on the wrist !  > .. > .. >

[Lawdwaz]

The Ontario Rod & Gun Club range was shut down for rifles , pistols and slug guns for about 1 year . A homeowner who resides on Putnam Road (about 1 mile morth of the range) was playing catch with his daughter . A 3 year old was running around in the yard . They never had any fear when they heard gun shots as it was a common occurance . Early one evening , the home owner said he heard a "pfffffftttttt" and a noise like someone threw a stone at the pool . He looked and saw water coming out of a hole in his pool . He took the kids in the house and put them in the basement and called 911 to report what happened . They told him to wait at the house and he said Bulls--t , they're still shooting .

When he got to the range , two a-holes were shooting AR-15's John wayne style and spraying the woods . The guy laid on his horn but they were wearing ear protection . He got out and ran toward the closest guy waving his arms . The guy stopped shooting and waved to his buddy . A trooper showed up as well as the President of the club . They all drove over to the house on Putnam . The home owner pulled the cover back off the pool , climbed in and gave the bullet to the Trooper .

One of the shooters said he would pay to have the damage repaired as his family runs a restaurant / bar on Lake Road in Webster . Then this piece of crap backed out and told the homeowner that it was the Club's problem . A real classy guy !!!  > .. > .. >

The guy had his membership revoked and neither one is welcome back .

We all had to go through a safety certification in order to use the range after that .

Anyway , the two shooters had shot over the top of a high berm , through a large wooed area and managed to put a hole in a swimming pool almost one mile away . Oh yeah , they said each of them had fired 2 1/2 thirty round clips . There were 2 holes in the target at the berm . All they got was a slap on the wrist !  > .. > .. >

Wow, that's a beauty of a story.  Thank goodness no one got hurt.

[bpb]

  "If" the club had heeded warnings from other area clubs this incident may have never happened. Ontario refused to enact strict rules and increase their berm size.

You can't idiot proof everything or everyone, but that rifle range was a disaster waiting to happen.

A shotgun slug will roll land tumble a long ways before stopping.

Doc try looking a the FBI's site under ballistics.

 

[bpb]

The shotgun slugs people are using today are not the soft lead slugs we used 20 years ago.

 

I'll see if I can dig up some info.  or call Frank Phillips 585-226-2466 and ask him to email you the accident reports.

Actually when your involved in the day to day operation of sportsmen groups, its not that you remember everything for fun. You are forced to recall all kinds of facts because their are so few people that help out you have to take on several duties.