Question about traveling with hunting riffle overseas

[lastedtiger]

Hey guys,
I have a question and also want to share my experience about traveling with a hunting riffle from Jfk airport overseas for hunting purposes, may be one of you could answer it or suggest something .
Long story short, Going with couple of my UN coworkers for a hunting trip next week. I called the air france, they told me I can only have 11lbs of ammo, no limit of the number of firearms(they have to be in hard cases, bring tsa lock, ammo packed separate. ..). I am bringing few pistols with me, I have paperwork for all of them, but none for the rifles.How do I prove the rifles are mine? has anyone traveled with an AR? Port authority police I can carry the firearms in my car trunk and travel from my house straight to the airport. I have called multiple times but keep getting different answers from the police.
Nb: i am a PA resident (moved from ny but commute for work) and the FFL i use for my guns told me after NIC background check that no paperwork is issued for ownership beside the sale receipt for long guns; which cabelas from hamburg confirmed yesterday when I picked up my M&P  .
Thanks guys,  shoot safe.

Edited September 19, 2014 by lastedtiger

[Dinsdale]

You need a Customs form #4457 which is a proof of ownership....

Most foreign countries happen to use that as a US firearms permit, although you can get one for any article of value you take travelling for proof you did not buy overseas. For example all my DLSR and lenses have 4457's.

Once filled out they are good for as long as you own the article, so I have mine laminated.

You can do a preprinted, prefilled out one on-line and then have customs do the inspection.

If you plan on traveling more, I suggest you list each gun and or scope serial number on seperate forms so you can mix and match when packing.

You can have this done at JFK.....but I HIGHLY suggest you get this done before your departure date. I cut it way to close on one trip as it took several hours to get someone to inspect and stamp form. Call where you are going as some Customs offices don't like folks walking in with guns and escort you from lot.

If you must get inspection at JFK......on the first floor of the Internatonal terminal you will be departing and where arrivals are; the office for Customs is across from the center information desk/kiosk, and next to the currency exchange. You'll need some time for this.....atlest an hour from my and others experience.

You DO NOT put TSA locks on the gun case! That case is to be opened only by you and you are supposed to have the only keys. TSA lock the ammo, a decent plastic pistol case works good for ammo, and placed in your luggage.

At JFK.......you'll need a little extra time for Port Authority to inspect guns, which they do right there on the concourse. They ask for 4457's for serial numbers and check against guns, write your passport number in their log book. Pretty easy really, airline will page PA cops for you after you go up and check in/luggage tags and such.

Air France has a good rep for handling guns, but I always have all the regs copied for counter folks just in case.

Than you'll get walked over to TSA for usual inspection and guns are on the way to plane with other luggage.

Coming home.....

Gun cases will be with oversized luggage like baby strollers and such offf to one side where regular belts are. You can put one person there and one looking for other bags.....I travel solo and usually just wait at luggage and can see oversize across the room and keep an eye for gun.

When needing to go through Customs, flag someone walking where the lines form and say you have a firearms....they'll usually walk you around all the lines and right back to ships office for a check. Took all of 5 minutes to get out of JFK last trip to get out of customs.......past May.

One more caveat.....

Want to be a big dude and express your 2nd amendment rights and cop an attitude about inspections and mouth off to TSA/PA/ the airline staff?

Be ready to sit a spell and be flagged in the system forever.

Say you have sporting firearms and try to be a little discreet, it'll make for a better trip. I seen others in a unfortunate position because of their big mouths. Just sayin' FWIW.

I have flown more than a few times both international and domestic with firearms and have never had anything but good experience with all flights.

[Dinsdale]

Some custom offices are checking 4457 forms against stolen gun database when you are getting inspection/stamp.

 

They ran my stuff at Albany airport Customs when I had my last forms filled out. I did about a dozen guns and scopes ,and they ran the whole batch. I had to make an appointment for there, but all personnnel were very professional and prompt.

 

I have never had incoming check for stolen at JFK; but other airports like Atlanta are notorious for checking incoming guns against data base making for LONG airport waits inbound.......need to schedual a long transfer time if you need to catch a connecting flight at some airports.

[mac]

Dinsdale, that is great info for everyone traveling.  I seem to read different peoples experiences with the TSA locks and which ones to use or not use

[Dinsdale]

From Air France.....special cargo regs....http://www.airfrance.us/US/en/common/guidevoyageur/pratique/bagage_special_autre_airfrance.htm

Hunting and sporting rifles

Hunting and sporting rifles are regulated weapons. Transporting these items requires prior approval and written authorization. If you plan to travel with any of these items, please indicate so when reserving your trip (by telephone or at a ticket office) to obtain the required transport authorization. You must then declare these items when you check in.

You may transport a rifle under the following conditions:

■the rifle must be unloaded,

■the rifle and its ammunition may be transported in the same baggage item but must be packed in separate bags within that baggage item,

■the rifle and its ammunition cannot be transported in a baggage item(s) containing other personal items,

■ammunition must be packed in a single container (fiberboard, wood or metal box) weighing up to 5 kg / 11 lb per passenger,

■cartridges must remain in their original packaging, and any empty spaces must be filled with stuffing material to avoid slippage during the flight.

Please note: each firearm is considered as one baggage item and is included in your baggage allowance. If the number of baggage items you wish to transport in the hold exceeds your authorized allowance, you must purchase an additional baggage allowance. To determine the amount, please read the information in the Checked baggage section.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Better check that last statement; I woulds expect that to mean each firearm CASE......meaning one bag with multiple firearms in that one case..... But technically they could read that as each gun even in one case would result in an extra charge.

And I assume you have indicated to AF that you intend to travel with firearms and have written paperwork in hand.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Dinsdale

[steve863]

He did say he was bringing pistols with him.  I would imagine this would open up a whole other can of worms, both at JFK airport and abroad?  Don't know where he is heading to, but I don't think many places abroad look too kindly at people bringing in pistols.  Maybe a few spots in Africa it would be OK, but Europe has very strict gun laws just about everywhere, most especially for pistols.

 

 

 

[Dinsdale]

 

Dinsdale, that is great info for everyone traveling.  I seem to read different peoples experiences with the TSA locks and which ones to use or not use

I'll relate MY interpretation and experiences.....

I only have used my own locks on gun cases with no issue. TSA lock for ammo in a small case, and placed in a checked bag. I run a ammo case that is also designed to fly on its own as some airlines will change from flights originating in the US to flights departing overseas. I'm covered any way they want to play the game and just do what they want, checked on its own or in a bag.

Here are TSA regs pertinent;

-TSA must resolve all alarms in checked baggage. If a locked container containing a firearm alarms, TSA will contact the airline, who will make a reasonable attempt to contact the owner and advise the passenger to go to the screening location. If contact is not made, the container will not be placed on the aircraft.

-If a locked container alarms during screening and is not marked as containing a declared firearm, TSA will cut the lock in order to resolve the alarm.

-Travelers should remain in the area designated by the aircraft operator or TSA representative to take the key back after the container is cleared for transportation.

I gave locks to a guy in San Antonio who had TSA and his case was NOT going anywhere. I carry a spare set just in case.

Every major travel agent with gun/overseas travel also states non TSA locks.

Yes, I have read where folks have flown with TSA locks.

My question is why? Why would you want some minimum wage airport worker access to your case when you can clearly put secure well built locks on your stuff with access only with your permission or bolt cutters.

I'll just let me rumage through that case or watch who's doing it, thank you very much. LOL

As always JMO.

[Elmo]

Do I need the 4457 Form when traveling to Texas?  Since my rifles are all registered in NYC, I have the transfer forms proving ownership.  Would that take the place of a 4457 form?  I was also planning on putting my ammo in the gun case along with the gun itself.  Would that be an issue?

 

Thanks in advance.

[jjb4900]

I would be concerned about travelling into NY from PA with handguns, there have been more than a few cases of non residents getting pinched at the airport travelling with handguns.....

[steve863]

I would be concerned about travelling into NY from PA with handguns, there have been more than a few cases of non residents getting pinched at the airport travelling with handguns.....

 

 

That was my thinking.  There may be exceptions for people boarding flights out of JFK, but in general I thought no one from another state was allowed to bring a pistol to NY.  There may be other exceptions for people just passing thru the state.  No one should forget that JFK is in NYC, and the rules are even more strict on pistols there.

[Dinsdale]

Elmo, on 19 Sept 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:Elmo, on 19 Sept 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

Do I need the 4457 Form when traveling to Texas?  Since my rifles are all registered in NYC, I have the transfer forms proving ownership.  Would that take the place of a 4457 form?  I was also planning on putting my ammo in the gun case along with the gun itself.  Would that be an issue?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

No 4457...this is a US Customs form for international travel.

 

 

Ammo......check with carrier. TSA law says ammo is OK is case; but airlines can do what they want to exceed that regulation.

 

Regulations will always be found under baggage rules either under Sporting goods, or special equiptment for each airline.

 

For example when I fly Southwest I just put a box of ammo in with the rifle. I'm not aware of any international carrier where that would be allowed, they always want a seperate box.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Dinsdale

[lastedtiger]

He did say he was bringing pistols with him.  I would imagine this would open up a whole other can of worms, both at JFK airport and abroad?  Don't know where he is heading to, but I don't think many places abroad look too kindly at people bringing in pistols.  Maybe a few spots in Africa it would be OK, but Europe has very strict gun laws just about everywhere, most especially for pistols.

Whole can of worms indeed as you have to comply with the country you are going into firearm rules. We are going to west Africa maybe South Africa after, and yes they have serious rules about pistols. Handguns from non residents can only stay in their country for 90 days,only for target shooting purposes and cannot be used as CCW at any times.

 

Do I need the 4457 Form when traveling to Texas?  Since my rifles are all registered in NYC, I have the transfer forms proving ownership.  Would that take the place of a 4457 form?  I was also planning on putting my ammo in the gun case along with the gun itself.  Would that be an issue?

 

Thanks in advance.

You need to check with the air plane  website and give them a call to say you are bringing guns and ammo. They have different rules, Brussels airlines for example only takes 2 firearms and have to fit inside your check-in baggage (unless you want to pay a separate luggage) , and ammo have to be separate from the firearm from what a representative told me over the phone. It's probably easier to travel locally. 718-244-4335, Port authority police number.

 

I would be concerned about travelling into NY from PA with handguns, there have been more than a few cases of non residents getting pinched at the airport travelling with handguns.....

You have a very valid point here sir. The last thing we want is to be part of a "gun statistic " in nyc.

 

That was my thinking.  There may be exceptions for people boarding flights out of JFK, but in general I thought no one from another state was allowed to bring a pistol to NY.  There may be other exceptions for people just passing thru the state.  No one should forget that JFK is in NYC, and the rules are even more strict on pistols there.

We did our homework on that, you can travel to the ariport on the day of the trip from your house straight to the airport, no hanging around, it is considered a "transit". The firearms have to be locked in the trunk with ammo separate, NO CCW .

[lastedtiger]

Dinsdale, thanks for the info, i thought i could share my experience with you guys, i appreciate your input, it is all about enjoying the sport. I will post pictures next week after the experience.

The police told me that no paperwork is needed for the long rifles , but called my the FFl that did the long guns transfer and he will give me a copy of the form 4473-Atf . The air plane company would call  port authority police when we get there.

I will use your form 4457, nothing to loose.Air france told me that we are keeping the keys of the locks after the police inspect it in front of me and close it.

The air plane has been notified about 5 times,lol , and we have individual paperwork( from PA) of each firearm as well as paperwork from the country we are going into allowing us to bring those guns for sporting purposes in english and french.

Hopefully the cops inspect the firearms somewhere discret, would hate to hear an anti gun person .

Where overseas did you go? is 11lbs of ammo really enough to target shoot and hunt with?

[Dinsdale]

lastedtiger, on 19 Sept 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:lastedtiger, on 19 Sept 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:lastedtiger, on 19 Sept 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

Dinsdale, thanks for the info, i thought i could share my experience with you guys, i appreciate your input, it is all about enjoying the sport. I will post pictures next week after the experience.

The police told me that no paperwork is needed for the long rifles , but called my the FFl that did the long guns transfer and he will give me a copy of the form 4473-Atf . The air plane company would call  port authority police when we get there.

I will use your form 4457, nothing to loose.Air france told me that we are keeping the keys of the locks after the police inspect it in front of me and close it.

The air plane has been notified about 5 times,lol , and we have individual paperwork( from PA) of each firearm as well as paperwork from the country we are going into allowing us to bring those guns for sporting purposes in english and french.

Hopefully the cops inspect the firearms somewhere discret, would hate to hear an anti gun person .

Where overseas did you go? is 11lbs of ammo really enough to target shoot and hunt with?

 

 

  

 

 

Calling Port Authority is not the correct agency for this info on the international side.

 

4473 has absolutely nothing to do with any of this.

 

Port Authority has nothing to do with this other than the first inspection at the airline counter right there on the concourse. Its actually quite funny to open a guncase and watch folks at the ticketing counter. LOL There only jusidiction is the airport grounds and departures....Arrival side is all US Customs.

 

Every African country I know of requires a 4457 for a permit (and frankly so does any other overseas hunt that I know of)

 

For example SAPS;

"A certified copy of a licence, permit, authorization or any other documentary proof confirming the lawful possession of the firearm." They consider our 4457 as a permit.

 

 

My experience?

 

More than a few international hunts including Africa several times.

 

11 kilos is a bunch of ammo for hunting trip. Other than a high volume cull or management hunt ....a couple for sighters and 2-3 rounds per intended target on the outside for hunting. 

 

I don't need 2 very often, maybe a handful and I have shot a pile of plains game from Duikers to Eland

 

 

 

 

Have fun on your trip.

 

 

Edit to add......curiosity got to me so I had to figure it out; 14 international flights for hunts with guns, including one export permit from State Department........damn where the hell did all the time go! I got a bunch left to do, I better get back to work......

Edited September 19, 2014 by Dinsdale

[Lawdwaz]

 

 

Edit to add......curiosity got to me so I had to figure it out; 14 international flights for hunts with guns, including one export permit from State Department........damn where the hell did all the time go! I got a bunch left to do, I better get back to work......

 

14?  Holy kielbasa!!

 

WTH..............................................I have a ways to go.  I have two international hunts; both to Canada.    One hunt for caribou in Quebec and one bear hunt in Saskatchewan. And the latest one was 1997 IIRC!

 

Lots of great information in this thread, you guys know your stuff.  Kudos........

[lastedtiger]

Dang , i totally forgot to update this thread,  been having too much fun shooting and hunting. Excuse any typos , I am using an azerty keyboard.

So i went to JFK couple of hours before the flight. Went straight to the counter and declared i had firearms; the terrified lady asked how many then called her manager who quickly called port authority police. Within 20 seconds I was hanging with three cops who were asking simple questions like: how long have you been in nyc with those firearms, why taking the plane in nyc and not in Pennsylvania, why so many guns. Then asked for the pistols paperwork (I showed my application/record sale), my driver’s license and official documents allowing the entry of my firearms in Africa. I didn’t have any paperwork for my AR as PA doesn’t issue any but the cops said it was fine and were only interested in the handguns. After which he called his station to give the firearms serial numbers, meanwhile his buddy told me to pull of the firearms to the ground and started inspections, he safety check the firearms for clear chambers and empty magazines. Needless to say passengers in that area were terrified watching, especially when the cops pulled the AR out. I wish this could have been done elsewhere but in front of every travelling person. They got a call about the serial numbers, told me I was clear and told me to close the bag; the manager of air France said she needs to weight my ammo  before the bag is checked because apparently there will be a lot a lot of ammo going in. I had to take out 100 rounds of 45acp and told me in french that if I was the only passenger on board with ammo it wouldn’t be an issue.  The cops escorted me to the TSA bags section and said I didn’t have to lock my bags, which I quickly locked! I brought my some firearms that I wanted to test long range: glock 17 gen4, glock 30s gen4, smith and Wesson shield, ruger sr9c, keltec p32 and Mp 15-22

Cops said it was ok to have out of state guns in nyc for less than 24 hours as its considered in-transit; they also said not to mistakenly bring the 100 rounds of through the gate as it is a serious matter.

It was a quick good experience; those cops were very helpful and professional!

We landed safely, the rancher came to the airport police station with bunch of paperwork because civilians are not allowed to own more than two firearms no bigger than 9mm unless it is for hunting or range practice purposes. I totally forgot to bring the form 4457!

A rancher gave me some cci standard velocity which made me realize the 22lr ammo crisis has been hard on me, grrrrr!

 I stretched my firearms and shoot all kinds of other rifles and pistols. Took shoots from a galloping horse at wild pigs with my bear anarchy. I felt under gunned when the hunting period came as I did the tragic mistake of not bringing a high powered riffle even though I am more of target shooter. My two coworkers had only brought rifles luckily for me.  I will say this out loud: BRING THE BIGGEST RIFFLE YOU CAN IF YOU GOING TO HUNT IN AFRICA EVEN IF YOUR MAIN CONCERN IS TARGET SHOOTING.  

Thanks to Dinsdale and others that chimed in

HAVE FUN HUNTING AND SHOOT SAFE FOLKS.

[BizCT]

I fly with guns all the time out of NYC. Cops and TSA always have been cool. Customs in Canada has been more difficult. When I was bringing home my Lynx from Canada, they kept asking me what kind of lettuce. I thought they were joking, but they weren't. The guy didn't know what a Lynx was until I showed him on my phone.

 

Anyway, did you kill anything overseas?

[pistolp71]

I love the looks on those city libtard faces when I say I have guns. And then when I open the case with my evil looking "assault rifles". The best was a few years ago, traveling out of JFK, hundreds of people around, and my father stands his 50 lb.case up on end and turns away and the case fell flat on the floor with a VERY loud bang. We still laugh about that one.

[Dinsdale]

Glad you had a good time.....

Damn funny when they open and inspect guns right there on the concourse isn't it? LOL

Africa can get really addicting to visit and hunt.

I thought I could move on after last trip, and although some other destinations are on my short list, I'm already tempted for going again next year. I feel like a damn crack addict.

Frankly I'd go more just to hangout, but its a PIA to find someone to watch my dog for 3 or 4 weeks.

Good shooting.

[incognito]

I have never travelled with firearms like some others have. Nor am I a lawyer.

However, I am confident that under no circumstances can you possess an Assault Rifle (as defined by the SAFE Act) that has not been registered in NY. If you did and got away with it, good for you. It may not turn out so well next time. Also, beware of the capacity of your magazines.

[Ford]

Dinsdale was spot on with the procedures. Missed this thread, as I work at JFK. But you could not have got better advice.

[lastedtiger]

I fly with guns all the time out of NYC. Cops and TSA always have been cool. Customs in Canada has been more difficult. When I was bringing home my Lynx from Canada, they kept asking me what kind of lettuce. I thought they were joking, but they weren't. The guy didn't know what a Lynx was until I showed him on my phone.

 

Anyway, did you kill anything overseas?

Sounds like you had fun in Canada . Lol at lettuce, what was so different between customs at JFK and Canada?

Yes sir, hogs,rabbits, bunch of birds and a waterbuck. i was really upset because the rancher was prohibiting us from eating any types of wild meat because of Ebola.

Nice profile picture by the way.

 

I love the looks on those city libtard faces when I say I have guns. And then when I open the case with my evil looking "assault rifles". The best was a few years ago, traveling out of JFK, hundreds of people around, and my father stands his 50 lb.case up on end and turns away and the case fell flat on the floor with a VERY loud bang. We still laugh about that one.

The facial expression of the teller was priceless when she asked me if i had more than one gun, if i was in the military and why i needed so many firearms. That bag falling is a good one, thanks for sharing, lol.

 

Glad you had a good time.....

Damn funny when they open and inspect guns right there on the concourse isn't it? LOL

Africa can get really addicting to visit and hunt.

I thought I could move on after last trip, and although some other destinations are on my short list, I'm already tempted for going again next year. I feel like a damn crack addict.

Frankly I'd go more just to hangout, but its a PIA to find someone to watch my dog for 3 or 4 weeks.

Good shooting.

Dinsdale,

Not only they opened it in the middle of everyone in the concourse but they made me pull all the firearms from the case and rocked the slides in front of everyone around, i saw people pointing, whispering....they looked terryfied and disgusted specially when the cop pulled the AR from its case, i heard OMG WOW. I am laughing at it now but it was not that funny back then, LOL

I do not have the words to describe that continent, it is like a black plaque; from target shooting to hunting, pest control at night ,pigs and goats management in the morning, fishing, riding and shotting from horses, riding dirtbikes like a maniac .i am totally coming back next year with some serious fire power! what guns did you bring over if you do not mind me asking? my coworkers had some 375 HH as their primary hunting riffles.

At the airport when we landed they had this device to check our body temperature for signs of ebola  

I hear your pain, finding someone to watch over your dog is as hard as finding some CCI mini mags ammo in cabelas  , i heard about dog hotels but have no idea how much that cost.

Thanks again for the advices , much appreciated

 

I have never travelled with firearms like some others have. Nor am I a lawyer.

However, I am confident that under no circumstances can you possess an Assault Rifle (as defined by the SAFE Act) that has not been registered in NY. If you did and got away with it, good for you. It may not turn out so well next time. Also, beware of the capacity of your magazines.

 I did not get away with anything in that trip, like i said way up Port authority police called their station with the name ,model and serial number of all my firearms; their main concern was that the guns were really mine and had way more interest in the handguns the AR. My two buddies are from CT and PA and had  three AR chambered in 223, 308 and 450 bushmaster in their rifles arsenal; my glock 17 has three 17 rounds mag and one 33 rounds mag. According to police we were considered to be in transit in nyc which is legal for 24 hours only. I personaly took receipts at toll booths and macdonald to back my words up in case my X6 with PA plates looked suspicious on my way to jfk

In the country we were ,an AR cannot be own by a civilian because those calibers are just for military personnel , range owners and collectioners ....

 

Dinsdale was spot on with the procedures. Missed this thread, as I work at JFK. But you could not have got better advice.

Could not agree more on Dinsdale being right on the procedure, guess i owe him more than a beer now

[steve863]

Glad you had some fun, but I am still trying to figure out why go thru all the trouble of taking pistols and AR's to Africa, when bullets fired from such firearms probably just bounce off the majority of animals that roam that continent?  It just seems like a hell of a LONG way to go to just do some plinking at rodents and rabbits.  You could have gone to Arizona or other places out west for far less money and heck of a lot less hassle.  You are saying that next time you will take some real firepower to Africa like a .375H&H.  I am just wondering why it took you a trip over there to find out that a gun like that is better suited for Africa then the pistols and AR's you did take??

 

 

 

[Curmudgeon]

Slight change of subject. The OP mentioned Air France. I visit family in France regularly. Does anyone know if it is possible for Americans to hunt in the Pyrenees for boar, roe deer, izard, etc.?

 

I can find a guided hunt by googling but nothing about someone wanting to go it alone.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Curmudgeon

[Larry]

I had no Problem just carried it on right up the ramp of the c-130 only thing they wouldn't land the plane we had to jump.