NYS Public lands, and thier management..

[NYDeer]

This is from the DEC site:

Q:  Why doesn't DEC do more habitat management on state lands?

  A: New York has one of the largest percentages of both  state land and state-managed conservation easements in the United States  with some 4.6 million acres managed by DEC.  While many hunters would  prefer that all state lands are managed solely to promote optimal  wildlife habitat, DEC manages its lands for a variety of purposes  including watershed protection, recreation, forestry, ecosystem  protection, open space conservation, and protection of wildlife habitat.

Of DEC managed lands, about 63%, more than 2.6 million acres in the  Adirondacks and more than 300,000 acres in the Catskills, are held as  "forever wild" lands protected by Article XIV of the New York State  Constitution. The Forest Preserve has exceptional scenic, recreational,  and ecological value, though the Constitution specifically prohibits the  sale, removal, or destruction of timber from the Forest Preserve.    Thus, DEC cannot alter these forests to create the conditions preferred  by many game species.

About 17% of DEC managed land is State Forest and another 16% is  comprised of private Conservation Easements.  On many of these lands,  DEC's Division of Lands and Forests uses timber management as a tool to  enhance biodiversity and to create habitat features that might be  lacking in the landscape. Other portions are managed to protect and  enhance rare, threatened or endangered species.  Unit Management Plans  are developed with public review to guide the management activities  within individual State Forests.

The remaining 4% of DEC managed lands are held as Wildlife Management  Areas.  On these lands - including more than 124,000 acres of upland  and 53,000 acres of wetland - DEC's Division of Fish, Wildlife &  Marine Resources (DFWMR) manages specifically to promote wildlife  habitat and wildlife recreation.  Annually, DFWMR conducts a variety of  habitat improvement projects including timber harvest, mowing and brush  hogging, seeding and planting, burning, fruit tree release, water level  control, and invasive vegetation control.

The 'Forever Wild' clause mentioned, of the New York State Constitution reads,

“The lands of the state, now owned or hereafter acquired, constituting the forest preserve as now fixed by law, shall be forever kept as wild forest lands. They shall not be leased, sold or exchanged, or be taken by any corporation, public or private, nor shall the timber thereon be sold, removed, or destroyed."

When the forefathers of NY created these 'Forever Wild' guidelines & added to the NYS Constitution, they were acting in the BEST interest for the lands & resources for future generations. There was nothing like it anywhere in the world. It was the only method to stop the destruction, and rape of the land from the industrial practices of the time, so they 'preserved' lands constitutionally & made them unmarketable/worthless to profiteers..  They did what they could at the time using the best information & tools they had available. NY State is now BLESSED as one of leading states with the MOST land open to the public for use. We all owe them for their foresight, and the cojones to take action.. In hindsight, in over 100 years or so, forestry and land management have  come along way since these terms & conditions secured the lands by the  NY Constitution. Since then, New York now has two other NYS owned land classifications, State Forests & Wildlife Management Areas. These weren't in existence when these lands were first acquired & classified, and allow for long term protection of the lands, but adopt modern land management techniques to improve habitat. If they existed, the 'constitutional' preserve wouldn't have been necessary in the first place. Please understand, I'm not suggesting this change for all preserve lands, the original old growth Adirondacks should be left for eternity as is for just an example. Delicate, unique ecosystems & natural wonders be preserved & protected still.  Stands of Beech trees that are effected by blight could be controlled.. The ice storm damage of a few years ago could be cleaned up, making traveling through the forest possible again.. Restoration of native trees like spruce, firs and hemlock to where they were before being harvested for profit.

Finally, the financial aspect of this. Modern forestry methods ARE renewable resources that could bring habitat improvement & funding to the DEC.  Managing lands for wildlife habitat can influence the game of ther land. QDM, NWTF, are prime examples.. The management  of NYS Land assets could be the ticket to putting NY as a big Buck  destination again drawing out of state sportsman's dollars to upstate NY economies.. What if the lands we use/own could actually FUND itself to being improved, creating better outdoor opportunities for all, with little  additional expense?? Furthermore, NYS DEC actually needs increased funding, not  cuts as we're seeing.. The Marcus shale gas reserve permitting/enforcement fell  to the DEC, in addition to regular duties they already were understaffed to handle..  The real tricky part here probably isn't actually getting  the land classifications changed, but keeping the funding going back into the lands care, rather the claws of the fiscal vultures of  Albany..

Just an idea.. What do you think??[/color]

[gjs4]

Q What does the DEC do to trulymanage game anywhere?

A Nothing

[outdoorstom]

NYDEER - Did you write that, or find it somewhere? If you wrote it, well done! I believe we should be logging state lands. They are a huge source of funds that are being neglected due to a bunch of treehuggers that don't understand when done right, logging is actually good for the health of a forest and the animals living there.

[nyantler]

What a great question! I've been asking that for years... I'm sure the answer is the same as the reason they haven't created a state wide management plan.. hunter resistance!

[Doc]

The idea of land management to the DEC is putting in a parking lot or two, and hanging some boundary signs. Oh, and occasionally putting up some signs along the road with the name of the particular parcel. We have a chunk of state land that has some old farm fields that they use to keep mowed once a year. This year they even skipped that. I noticed that the boundary signs are falling down and not being replaced.

I wouldn't be looking for any of that to improve. Even if they wanted to, where would the money come from? Even the logging operations require DEC personel to administer the activity and they are chopping all of those guys. That ain't going to happen. Those guys are just trying to hang on to what's left of their jobs. We're watching the department crumbling right before our eyes. They are dying a slow death of starvation. Don't be expecting to get any blood out of that stone.

[NYDeer]

Yes, I wrote it.. It's sorta a compilation of observations & thoughts.

It's primarily directed at the Catskills & Adirondacks, where bulk of the 'forever wild' land lies, literally locked up by the classification. The more recent acquisitions of state lands in NY are state forests, so they are actively managed for forest health, but not for the majority of land holdings, which are the oldest state owned ones. The idea of preserving them was great, and was one of the first nationally, but not necessarily the best plan for long term forest health, and the animals residing in it. If you look at the history of the state lottery programs, you'll see that the early states who jumped in were SOLD the idea of additional revenues to help with schools, this, that , blah, blah.. Guess what?? When governments realized they would be getting additional money for education, they decided they could reduce they're contributions! If 'peter's' paying, 'paul' can spend his cash elsewhere. States that have entered into state lottery programs after recongnized this 'bait & switch' tactic, and legislated locking education funding at current levels into the lottery authorizations, than adding the lottery monies generated on top, REAL additional funding for education..  Georgia is the prime example. FREE college to residents, plus a host of other educational benefits, all made possible by lottery cash.. All started from an impercfect idea, perfected over time with observation, then set into law to keep it from being tampered with..

That's exactly my point on reclassifying the lands..  The 'forever wild' idea has been improved upon, through the newer land classifications. Launce a program to apply the newer classification & management methods on some parcels as a test bed, even put a sunset window into the legislation that if specific goals aren't met in 20-25 years, the parcel reverts back to the original classification.. Lock any revenues generated from the lands to the lands.. Control the diseased woodlots to propagate the forest, not let it become stands of  immature trees that don't produce any mast.. Eliminate the fire hazard of tinder from blowdowns covering whole mountain sides..

Nothing radical, just today's' accepted common sense forestry practices already being applied to the other land classifications on some of the parcels locked up in being the classified early on..

From thier website & public surveys/meetings, DEC seems to want more of the public input.. I'm sure its to justify their funding/existence, BUT thats not the important point, the end objective is. Keep themselves busy. If we, as NY Hunters could advance better hunting opportunities, and keep the DEC a busy, vital branch of government, both entities will benefit.

In the Nov10 Field & Stream, Heroes of Conservation colum, the spotlight is on The Mule Deer Foundations' Northern Front Range chapter. They worked with the Colo. State Div of Wildlife to add spring fed drinkers to Cherokee State Wildlife area.. They also plant trees & reseed pastures.. WOuldnt it be nice in NYS lands were able to be improved in a similar fashion??

I'm just an regular guy, I hunt & fish, have a family & a job, not in any outdoors field.. I've know some extremely intelligent people, who had great ideas, but didn't voice or act upon them. I'm just putting this out there where it may catch someones interest, and a grass roots project might get rolling, who knows.. 30 years ago, if you heard of 'QDMA' you might have thought it was some obscure government agency..

[Santamour123]

NYS manages its wildlife resorces very well.  They give out an ungodly number of permits to farmers to kill off all deer, the shut down a normal goose season so we can save them for those in the south and the raise the price of our hunting licence. LOL

[gjs4]

Any western NY folks appreciative they sold off the pheasant farm on 77..... was acreage we all could have used....

Yup- they manage license sales. Dont you dare ask a deer related question here in region 9 unless you need permits to shoot them out of the normal season.... (love the post above)

[NYDeer]

The current nuisance permit situation is ridiculous. It could be an  opportunity to open up deer covered land for us.. Establish a program  for a 'nuisance cooperative' to harvest deer on enrolled properties..    If you have a legit deer problem, we have the solution. Give a special early season on it, does only, in sept, pre rut.. I know a guy out  here with a situation like this.. Land owner is allowing a small group permission to harvest deer he wants gone. He usually doesn't allow hunting, but is tired of replacing landscaping. Everyone's  happy, freezers are full, and all getting something they want.

 

I believe the DEC are mostly considered a disposable agency to most Albany lawmakers, somewhere they can make cuts to free up funds for pet projects and swipe cash from our 'un-represented' pockets.. The Renolds Pheasant Farm was a prime example.. The bulk of the state expense was employee expenses, yet from what I'd read, all employees were reassigned other duties.. Where was the 'savings'?? They could have raise TONS of cash, and probably balanced the budget, with a $2 tax on soccer balls..

But they didn't, because that would target 'Avg Joe Ny'er', not a minority group who voluntary reaches for its wallet, pays more that it receives, and has no solid political representation?? or simply, the NY Hunter..

NY hunters should be pressing DEC full steam.. Swamp them with letters, contact them, Contact your NY Assembly rep about DEC issues.. Hit the website to send a message on what you want to see.. Read the 2009 Deer Hunter Survey on the DEC site, has alot of info. If you agree, or disagree, contact them about it.. Yes, this takes time, and can be tedious tracking who to contact... BUT what about planning a hunt, paying for it, then going and seeing little to no game while bumping into your neighbor from around the block 150 miles away and that wasn't a waste of you time??

Look at the NRA, you get emailed a 'letter' to send out to your reps.. Cut, paste, and you have a nice, topical letter going out. Hell, we could even do something like it off here in as a political action forum.. we'd discuss an issue, come to a broad agreement, conduct a poll then compose the letter. Lock it as a 'Sticky' where anybody could copy & email to their reps..

Look at the AR program/crossbow issues.. It was a response to hunter input.. Nothing happens without asking/pressing for it..

It applies to the DEC, our elected reps, and even Obama in DC with Bush's tax cuts.. If enough pressure is applied, whether they really want to or not, things will get done yielding to the pressure..

How many minutes did you spend on the web today?? Could wrote an email!  8)

[the blur]

1) I feel those nusiance permits should not allow jack lighting.  Give us hunters a fair chance rather than the slaughter that goes on; on every farmers property.

Hacking off antlers to fill a nuisance doe permit, when it could be a wall hanger for one of us.

2) Fire Island,  what is the deal there ?  No hunting allowed, but they'll shoot them with darts to prevent pregancy ?  WTF.

Shelter island, the DEC feeds the deer through these tick eliminator systems that scrub the deer as they walk into the feeder area ???  Something stupid like that I heard.

3)  Canadian goose that take down planes.  the DEC will cull the geese, and then offer us a very short goose season ???  Why not open goose season always?  they are totally out of control !!

Someone explain the logic behind some of these thing ?

[16. ga hunter]

when did the dec sell the rt 77 property went by tonight and its still marked john white with state land signs? and no hunting zone around buildings?

[NYDeer]

Speaking of Culling Geese, How about Culling Deer?? Yep, It's true, heard it from the local SCPD patrol a few months ago.. Said he went in Hecksher Park to follow up on an earlier call, and saw a DEC guy, but he wasn't in a reg DEC uniform.. Asked him what was going on, said Deer Cull shoot.. Lovely.. Guys like myself would pay to hunt Hecksher State park, and DEC decides to kill off the herd.. Must have done a REALLY good job, have seen probably 10 deer all season between the pkway-school- and my lawn..

[the blur]

So what is the DEC logic to cull wildlife themselves, rather than sportsmen ???  who pay for licenses !

[WNYBuckHunter]

Generally, the bait and shoot program is used in residential areas and parks near them where hunting would be considered dangerous. They mostly use local PD sharp shooters to do it. Its been done in the Rochester area in the past. Im not sure if they still do it or not.

[the blur]

They can safely let a qualified hunter sit in a stand, so the Trajectory is downwards.

However, they would have to futher qualify the hunters to weed out the "brown is down" syndome.

They generally allow bow hunters, and sometimes shotguns in those areas.

[WNYBuckHunter]

They can safely let a qualified hunter sit in a stand, so the Trajectory is downwards.

However, they would have to futher qualify the hunters to weed out the "brown is down" syndome.

They generally allow bow hunters, and sometimes shotguns in those areas.

Sorry but that does not make sense. What does "brown its down" have to do with shooting ability? Also, if its a government run bait and shoot, they do not allow bows or shotguns, the sharpshooters are using scoped rifles and you cannot qualify to participate, its done by LEOs and DEC personnel. Now there have been some cases of parks in suburban or more rural type areas putting on special hunts that you have to qualify for, but its not part of the bait and shoot program. You cannot hunt over bait or at night.

[the blur]

We all know that are yahoo's out there there shoot at anything "brown is down".  No matter what it is, they see movement, they shoot.

Guys out there taking head shots, etc, etc.

So that would explain why the DEC handles culls them selves; & would not allow hunters near highly populated areas.

Nusiance permits allows jack lighting and baiting.  and shotguns during off season.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I didnt know we were talking about DMAPs, I thought we were talking about bait & shoot.

Again, just because someone shoots any deer they see, why does that make their marksmanship skills any lower?

[bpb]

NYDEER - Did you write that, or find it somewhere? If you wrote it, well done! I believe we should be logging state lands. They are a huge source of funds that are being neglected due to a bunch of treehuggers that don't understand when done right, logging is actually good for the health of a forest and the animals living there.

State land is logged

[the blur]

Are DMAP the same as land owner Nusiance permits ??

Nusiance permits have no rules, except they are DOE Nusiance permits.

I didnt know we were talking about DMAPs, I thought we were talking about bait & shoot.

Again, just because someone shoots any deer they see, why does that make their marksmanship skills any lower?

[WNYBuckHunter]

Nuisance permits (DDPs) do have rules and a process is in place for using them. They are slightly different than DMAPs, and dont necessarily mean you can even shoot the deer. Heres a good read for you...

http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/7199.html

Oh and you still havent answered the question. 

[the blur]

I'm talking about nusiance permits, and you bring in DMAP's.

They jack light deer under nusiance permits.

and were not taking about marksmenship skill.  Were talking about people who shoot at anything that moves, and will not take every precaution of what their target is and beyond.

[NYDeer]

logging is actually good for the health of a forest and the animals living there.

State land is logged

State Forests & wildlife management areas are logged..

'Forever Wild' lands in the Adks & Catskills are not logged, it's explicitly banned by NY State constitution..