Interesting!

[Curmudgeon]

Bravo Letinmfly! 4 Seasons is coming undone again.

 

The only hand fed birds I ever killed were domesticated - chickens, ducks, geese, turkeys.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

"Hand fed" is bull.

Really...How did you feed your birds?  Had no human interaction i take it?

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Bravo Letinmfly! 4 Seasons is coming undone again.

 

The only hand fed birds I ever killed were domesticated - chickens, ducks, geese, turkeys.

So you never hunted stocked birds?

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Ok so here's my take on this.  If I choose to go to a preserve and hunt for pheasants I'm doing because I want to enjoy a day out with friends or relatives and because I enjoy eating them.  At the end of the day we all shot birds, hopefully, and had a great day together.

 

If I go to a ranch to hunt for a rack, which I would never do, it's because I need to show off.  There is absolutely no enjoyment to it!!

Yes I'll shoot a big rack but that is the only thing I'll get out of it besides joining the ranks of the circle jerkers.  It's not done because someone enjoys eating the meat because that equation doesn't even play into it.  These ranch hunts are just to self inflate the egos of the people that do it.  How do you take pride in shooting a deer in an enclosure just to hang the head on your wall?  Please!!!

 

I'll give you a true story... a few years ago I was visiting my taxidermist.  A guy comes in with the grand slam for sheep and wanted them all mounted life size.  I congratulated the guy and asked about his hunts.  He said well I called a ranch in TX and the guy had what I wanted and I went and shot them.  Hmmmm... Anyway it cost him $125,000 to do this so that he could achieve the next level on his SCI standing.  I told him what I thought about him and his accomplishment and what to do with his next level!! 

What a crock.  See thats just my point...This is YOU,YOU,YOU talking. Your thoughts and your opinions. I know people that only harvest small bucks and does behind fence so dont think it dont happen.

 

And ya know the real true fact of the whole think is that...Its none of your business, my business or anyone else how someone chooses to spend their time but for you to say..Oh i killed a human stocked,hand fed bird and say you had a great time but then throw some spin about antlers on killing another animal is a crock and that was the whole point to the thread...Its not about how and where a animal is killed...Its about what animal is being killed and by whom and that fact has been proven over and over!

[Curmudgeon]

So you never hunted stocked birds?

 

I did when I was 14 or 15. Ancient history. Never since. Oh, and I didn't kill any.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Curmudgeon

[wildcat junkie]

Really...How did you feed your birds?  Had no human interaction i take it?

Once every 5 days filling a feeder isn't "hand feeding". As far as "human interaction"? No more so than planting food plots is "human interaction"?

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Once every 5 days filling a feeder isn't "hand feeding". As far as "human interaction"? No more so than planting food plots is "human interaction"?

Funny you should say that because that is just what i do with my pen's.  Human Interaction..Every 7 days?    Next!!!!!

[jjb4900]

Once every 5 days filling a feeder isn't "hand feeding". As far as "human interaction"? No more so than planting food plots is "human interaction"?

pen raised, hand fed...........same thing.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Funny you should say that because that is just what i do with my pen's.  Human Interaction..Every 7 days?    Next!!!!!

 

On your website, you show pics of you handling fawns and feeding the deer like pets. Just sayin...

[Four Season Whitetail's]

On your website, you show pics of you handling fawns and feeding the deer like pets. Just sayin...

Yup and if you really knew how a deer farm operated  you would know that you keep your breeders and does friendly and also any deer used for scent collection..Just Sayin...

[WNYBuckHunter]

Gotcha. So the ones people pay to shoot are only mildly accustomed to people?

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Gotcha. So the ones people pay to shoot are only mildly accustomed to people?

I can only speak for myself bud... But i would like to think so!

[WNYBuckHunter]

ok, just asking.

[mike rossi]

The answer:

http://joomla.wildlife.org/documents/positionstatements/Shooting_Preserves.pdf

http://joomla.wildlife.org/documents/positionstatements/33-Ungulate%20Confinement.pdf

 

[mike rossi]

Here are the relevant Parts:

 

The policy of The Wildlife Society regarding shooting preserves
is to:
1. Recognize the value of high quality shooting preserves, especially the part they play in
the recruitment and retention of hunters.
2. Recognize that shooting preserves are not a substitute for healthy, native, game bird
populations or a surrogate for natural habitats.
3. Recommend that state and provincial wildlife agencies develop science-based policies for
management of shooting preserves. Personnel in these agencies should have knowledge
of game species within their jurisdictions, including sufficient data on native and nonnative
populations of species potentially impacted by escaped animals.
4. Recommend that shooting preserves use native or naturalized game species.
5. Support state and provincial wildlife agencies as the primary regulatory authority over
shooting preserves, whether they involve stocking of native or non-native game birds.
State and provincial wildlife agencies should work cooperatively with other state,
provincial, and federal agriculture and health agencies, hunting groups, conservation
organizations, and private landowners to reduce the potential for problems, such as
disease transmission and genetic exchange among and between released non-native game
birds and native wildlife.
6. Encourage states to require all birds for release to be certified per the National Poultry
Improvement Plan (NPIP).
7. Recommend that the physical operation of shooting preserves remains in the realm of
private enterprise, and discourage their establishment by public agencies on public land
or the leasing of public land for such purposes. Recognize that stocking of game birds by
public agencies on public lands open to hunting is a legitimate wildlife management
practice that provides a quality recreational opportunity when managed correctly.
8. Encourage state and provincial wildlife agencies to license shooting preserves, to
establish and enforce high standards of operations to ensure a quality hunting experience,
to require shooting preserves to develop management plans that specifically address
habitat quality, fair chase, disease prevention, and the management of escaped animals to
minimize risks to off-site wildlife and wildlife habitats and to provide education that links
hunting to the Public Trust Doctrine.

 

AND: 

 

The policy of The Wildlife Society with respect to ungulate confinement is to:
1. Recognize the serious biological (diseases, genetic effects, etc.) and social (public
versus private ownership of wildlife, ethics) issues associated with confinement of wild
ungulates.
2. Oppose any additional conversion of the public's native wildlife to private ownership
via high-fenced enclosures.
3. Oppose high-fenced enclosures, regardless of size, if they exclude free-ranging native
wildlife from critical seasonal habitats or migration routes, or jeopardize the
sustainability of free-ranging native wildlife.
4. Support regulations and enforcement to prevent escapes of confined animals and
facilitate recovery in the event of an escape.
5. Support state and provincial wildlife agencies as the primary regulatory authority over
native North American ungulates, including those confined by high fences. State and
provincial wildlife agencies should work cooperatively with other state, provincial, and
federal agricultural, wildlife, and health agencies as well as hunting groups,
conservation organizations, private landowners, and managers to reduce the potential
for problems such as disease transmission and genetic exchange among native wildlife
and exotic species.
 

Edited December 5, 2014 by mike rossi

[NYbuck50]

I personally dont care if someone wants to shoot penned deer. If thats what does it for you, go ahead. Now personally, I wouldnt enjoy it, so i choose to hunt wild deer. To each his own. Its still a free country, at least as long as we can fend off the progressive commie nut jobs that run this state, and are trying to turn it into 1900's Soviet Union

 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

The answer:

http://joomla.wildlife.org/documents/positionstatements/Shooting_Preserves.pdf

http://joomla.wildlife.org/documents/positionstatements/33-Ungulate%20Confinement.pdf

Right!!!  So let me get this right... My animal. My property, My care. But they support this....

 

5. Support state and provincial wildlife agencies as the primary regulatory authority over 

native North American ungulates, including those confined by high fences. State and 

provincial wildlife agencies should work cooperatively with other state, provincial, and 

federal agricultural, wildlife, and health agencies as well as hunting groups, 

conservation organizations, private landowners, and managers to reduce the potential 

for problems such as disease transmission and genetic exchange among native wildlife 

and exotic species.

 

 

But they put forth nothing to any part of this animal but put that on the owner, as this...                                                                             

11. Oppose the use of funds generated from traditional sources (recreational licenses, tags, 

and other fees) for confined-ungulate inspections and regulatory programs. 

 

 

I believe not. My animal. My property..I will be the one under control and decisions of what happens to something that belongs to ME!

 

[dbHunterNY]

didn't really read through all this.... I can definitely say that the Pheasant thing isn't really the same as relocated birds in say the Dakotas.  When we raised them we tried to keep fields worth of habitat but eventually none survived.  habitat here in the northeast just isn't conducive to sustaining a population.  it's not the same as a wild pheasant hunt out in west.  the only way to do it would be to release them just before the hunt.  not really hunting them so much as target practice.  I'd rather shoot clay pigeons.  based on the food and time caring for them I'd say it's a heck of a lot cheaper.  they weren't wild either.  sure you can get a dog to flush them but if you kept the dog calm they would land right on your atv handlebars or rack and stare at ya.  especially the roosters as they're more curious and territorial.

[mike rossi]

 

Right!!!  So let me get this right... My animal. My property, My care. But they support this....

 

5. Support state and provincial wildlife agencies as the primary regulatory authority over 

native North American ungulates, including those confined by high fences. State and 

provincial wildlife agencies should work cooperatively with other state, provincial, and 

federal agricultural, wildlife, and health agencies as well as hunting groups, 

conservation organizations, private landowners, and managers to reduce the potential 

for problems such as disease transmission and genetic exchange among native wildlife 

and exotic species.

 

 

But they put forth nothing to any part of this animal but put that on the owner, as this...                                                                             

11. Oppose the use of funds generated from traditional sources (recreational licenses, tags, 

and other fees) for confined-ungulate inspections and regulatory programs. 

 

 

I believe not. My animal. My property..I will be the one under control and decisions of what happens to something that belongs to ME!

 

 

 

What exactly is the sore spot with your quote, number 5? All that is saying is that state wildlife agencies should regulate captive game, not state agriculture agencies. That makes perfect sense, even more sense because the captive game is raised for hunting purposes. Should zoos or individuals own lions and tigers with no regulation as well?

 

The author of the article you posted, and you, by posting it, are trying to conflate upland bird shooting preserves with high fence ungulate hunting and breeding. That is faulty logic on more levels than I care to delve.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

What exactly is the sore spot with your quote, number 5? All that is saying is that state wildlife agencies should regulate captive game, not state agriculture agencies. That makes perfect sense, even more sense because the captive game is raised for hunting purposes. Should zoos or individuals own lions and tigers with no regulation as well?

 

The author of the article you posted, and you, by posting it, are trying to conflate upland bird shooting preserves with high fence ungulate hunting and breeding. That is faulty logic on more levels than I care to delve.

Ahh Yeah.....Why would we want the DEC or DNR of states over seeing or animals. When the fence goes up the are now called farmed cervid livestock and that is controlled by the Dept of Ag just like any other livestock.  Why do you think when our deer get hit with EHD on a farm we get paid by the state for a part of their value or if CWD hits we get paid by our state?

 

Why would you want something that cant even live with their own rules running you business?  Point being these states that are bringing Elk into their states for hunters. These same states say that they dont want deer farmers bringing deer into their state even from 10 year CWD tested farms, Yet they bring in UNTESTED Elk into that state to release out into the wilds for the public to hunt.

 Yeah i guess so!

[Curmudgeon]

"they bring in UNTESTED Elk into that state to release out into the wilds for the public to hunt."

 

 

4 Seasons - Please provide a citation. You may be right but just spewing this stuff isn't convincing.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Curmudgeon

[Four Season Whitetail's]

 

"they bring in UNTESTED Elk into that state to release out into the wilds for the public to hunt."

 

 

4 Seasons - Please provide a citation. You may be right but just spewing this stuff isn't convincing.

 

So here is what they say the state rules are and what they live by.

 

Could reintroduced elk transmit diseases to domestic livestock and native wildlife?

Livestock and wildlife health is critically important to us. We are working very closely with the Missouri Department of Agriculture and State Veterinarian on stringent animal-health protocols to prevent the importation of diseased elk. Our disease protocols for elk restoration are more stringent than any existing disease protocols for livestock or privately imported elk and deer.

We are also working with other states that have successfully restored elk and have used what they have learned to develop our elk restoration plan that is based on research and sound science by wildlife experts.

According the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, no elk reintroduction program in which the RMEF has participated has resulted in spreading disease. We will be working with the RMEF on our elk restoration to southeast Missouri.

As is the case with all wild and domestic animals, elk can serve as hosts for a variety of diseases and parasites. The potential for disease has been minimized in other states where elk restoration has occurred by following strict health protocols and guidelines. As a result, no disease transmission from reintroduced elk to livestock or wildlife has been reported or documented.

Since 2000, there has been significant progress made in our understanding of chronic wasting disease (CWD), including a live-animal test for elk. Our extensive animal health protocols include testing all elk for chronic wasting disease.

Elk relocated into Missouri for the purposes of the elk restoration originate from a CWD-free state and from herds with a history of health surveillance and no evidence of health issues. Imported elk are tested for CWD, brucellosis, blue tongue, anaplasmosis, epizootic hemorrhagic disease, vesicular stomatitis, Johne's disease and bovine tuberculosis prior to shipment to Missouri.

The Missouri Department of Health and Senior Services states that there is no evidence that CWD can infect people. The Missouri Department of Agriculture states that current research shows there is no evidence that CWD can spread from infected deer or elk to livestock, such as sheep or cattle

 

And now this is what they say about a deer farm or ranch in that state.

 

Missouri Gov. Jay Nixon last week dealt a blow to the deer breeding and fenced hunting industry in what's being called a bellwether case in the national debate over how to regulate a practice linked to the spread of disease.

Nixon vetoed legislation that would have transferred oversight of the state's deer breeders from wildlife officials to Missouri's agriculture department.

"White-tailed deer are wildlife, and they are also a game animal," Nixon wrote in his veto message. "Putting them behind a fence does not change that fact."

That's the same argument made by Indiana wildlife officials who tried to shut down the state's high-fence hunting operations a decade ago. And it's expected to be part of the debate when Indiana lawmakers convene a summer study session on the subject in the coming weeks.

Wildlife advocates and deer breeders across the country — including those running Indiana's 400 deer farms — have been watching the battle play out in Missouri. Operators of fenced-hunting ranches want to be regulated by agricultural officials to avoid tighter rules proposed by wildlife agencies.

Many state wildlife agencies are concerned about the risk of spreading disease, especially the always fatal deer ailment known as chronic wasting disease, as deer are shipped across state lines to be killed in the private preserves.

Those risks were ­uncovered this spring in an Indianapolis Star investigation that some wildlife researchers called the most comprehensive examination of the issues surrounding deer farming and high-fence hunting to date.

Chronic wasting disease, a brain disorder similar to mad cow, has been found in wild and farmed deer in 22 states. The Star's investigation revealed that in half of those states, CWD was found first in a commercial deer operation. There is no live test for the disease, and wildlife officials across the country say escapes are common.

Because of such risks, 21 states have banned the importation of captive deer, saying they have been known to infect wild herds. Six members of Congress, citing The Star's investigation, urged federal agricultural officials to ban the interstate movement of captive deer, saying a national industry, which breeds bucks with large antlers to be shot in "canned" hunts, isn't worth the disease risks.

In Indiana, Senate President Pro Tempore David Long called for a study session, saying he would be willing to consider closing the state's borders to deer imports. The session could start between the end of July and September.

In the wake of Nixon's veto, wildlife advocates are waiting to see how the industry reacts and how aggressively it will push Missouri lawmakers to override it. They're also waiting to see if the industry's hiring of a public relations firm known for fighting tobacco bans, animal rights activists and fast-food calorie labels will be able to shape the debate, both in Missouri and in other states, including Indiana

 

So you read these 2 different writings from the same state and tell me this is not bullsh!t double standards.  If anyone on this site reading these words cant see what they are doing and their agendas, then you really are a sorry bunch.

The only test for CWD that a farm can use for deer or elk is a dead brain stem and lymph nodes. BUT the states say they can find the same CWD by using a anal swab or tonsil swab!!!!!!!!!!!     

Please.Please tell me how this is right and not just Govt trying to shut down their biggest threat using double standards and a disease, That They Know Is Not Killing Animals...to try and shut down the common man. This is the rules for every state!

[wildcat junkie]

Funny you should say that because that is just what i do with my pen's. Human Interaction..Every 7 days? Next!!!!!

And the point you made was...........

[Four Season Whitetail's]

And the point you made was...........

Point being that you say your birds are not human raised,hand fed because you only feed them every 5 days. Well surely my animals cant be human raised, hand fed because i fill feeders every 7 days.

[mike rossi]

Ahh Yeah.....Why would we want the DEC or DNR of states over seeing or animals. When the fence goes up the are now called farmed cervid livestock and that is controlled by the Dept of Ag just like any other livestock.  Why do you think when our deer get hit with EHD on a farm we get paid by the state for a part of their value or if CWD hits we get paid by our state?

 

Why would you want something that cant even live with their own rules running you business?  Point being these states that are bringing Elk into their states for hunters. These same states say that they dont want deer farmers bringing deer into their state even from 10 year CWD tested farms, Yet they bring in UNTESTED Elk into that state to release out into the wilds for the public to hunt.

 Yeah i guess so!

 

All businesses are regulated, especially those that may impact public property - in this case wildlife. And state wildlife agencies have regulatory jurisdiction over most wildlife (under what the legislature hands them), not state agricultural agencies. Migratory wildlife and rare wildlife are managed by the US Fish and Wildlife Service, but they unfortunately, answer to federal lawmakers, as the state wildlife agencies (the DEC) answer to state lawmakers...  You also need to acquaint yourself with the North American Conservation Model, if you cant or wont connect the dots in the model, and figure out why this is relevant, I cant help you.

 

You are again (in another post as well) are trying to cast similarities between upland bird preserves and high fence ungulate operations. Next , someone else , perhaps anti hunters, will encourage this to transpire over to state bird stocking programs then to use of released birds for training hunting dogs. There are no similarities.

 

And FYI: NY state banned possession, breeding, raising, and release for hunting of mallard ducks three or four years ago. The reason for this is that an ecological link was identified that deemed this practice unwise. It was banned and without a major backlash by the hunters and preserve operators and without most of them second guessing the DEC and other wildlife professionals. I am sure there was some opposition, including by people other than hunters and preserve operators; but nothing like the war waged by the cervid industry, but you are probably proud of that war.

 

Although some people have tried to write pseudo science and link the release of upland game birds to ecological issues, the consensus among the wildlife science community is that it is not an issue, but rather something that on a social level promotes hunting, conservation, and generates revenue and public support for conservation, rather than consumes conservation revenue as often charged.

 

Mallard ducks are NOT upland birds. You cant even compare a waterfowl species with an upland species and YOU want to compare cervids to upland birds... If you want to establish similarities, here is one: the release or even captive breeding of mallard ducks and whitetail deer both impact wild free-ranging populations.....

Edited December 7, 2014 by mike rossi