Luck or Skill

[knehrke]

My own personal hunting is undoubtedly influenced more by luck than skill. I can recognize skilled hunters when I see them and I know what it takes to make a skilled hunter (scouting, scent control, mapping paths into the woods for minimum disturbance, choice of stands, weather-wise, knowledge of deer biology, etc...). Truly, you have to be a student of the game.

However, while I try, I know that most of my efforts to become skilled are probably ineffective. I just don't have the time to spend doing what it takes. So I do my best and hope that the fates let a stupid one stumble into my path.  I feel privileged to have been very lucky over the past few years, but I can't attribute it to any particular skill on my part.

[phade]

i believe its more luck then skill but skill puts you in the right place most of the time and the luck of the deer coming by plays that part. i dont think its mostly skill, all your skills goes out the window when the rut comes and theres no rhyme or reason on deer pattern ( in most cases) but i think luck comes into hand at that point. just my 2 cents. some may disagree...

I think there is plenty of skill necessary to take bucks during the rut, especially mature bucks. While they may have changed focus from food to breeding, there are still unique challenges that must be overcome to be successful.

Luck certainly plays a role in any hunt, but the more skill I develop, the luckier I seem to get. Odd.

There are certainly times where I shake my head at such good luck, but when I think about it, almost all of my luck was brought on by my preparation that gave me the opportunity to begin with. On the flip side, when I make a mistake, I need to think about the hole in my game plan that caused it.

dont get me wrong but as you evolve as a hunter some of the "skill" you have claimed becomes common sense rather then actual skill... i agree with the more skill you get the more luckier you do but if it was the other way around does that mean your loosing your skill???

if you happen to make less kills and have a 2-3 year period of no success does that mean you are loosing that skill? id say no and chalking it up to luck, wouldnt you?

No, I wouldn't chalk a 2-3 year dry spell on luck. I'm doing something wrong at that point, or there are external factors that I need to address (land access, trespassing, deer pattern changes, gun/bow issues, etc.).

Again, alot of it depends on what you call success, and therein lies the debate. But, a 2-3 year dry spell to me signals something wrong. One year, maybe....but I better have:

A. Missed a shot

B. Had fewer than normal days a field

C. Thoroughly scouted out why I'm having this issue, and come to no conclusion.

I agree that luck is certianly part of the equation, sometimes it'll make you shake your head in disbelief for bad or good. But, luck is not the cause for most hunters being unsuccessful...its the hunter. There's something they could be doing better or differently. I hate to say it, but luck is a crutch, and it's usually not accurate to do so.

Skill and common sense are sometimes one in the same. Just because you learn it and take action does not mean it's becomes any less important. Finding a funnel or inside corner may be common sense, but it still takes skill to make it work consistently.

im not talking about any hunter in general, im talking about you.

assuming you do your normal regiment, scouting,decenting the whole 9. And then had we'll say a back to  back year where you came up not filling a tag and assuming you put in your time and so on.

can your skill change the wheather conditions? can you make it stop raining when it turns out to be a wet season? perhaps wind? skill doesnt have much bearing on that... my point is you as a hunter can do ALL, YOU can do to make your BEST effort on putting yourself on deer i agree a 100% but you have no 100% control over the guys sneaking on your land spreading there scent around or if you hunt public land perhaps another hunter walking past your stand. however when by luck wheather conditions happen to be perfect, or you are the only one hunting that particular parcel that day and no one is there to ruin your hunt, or you get in the woods on a weekend and not one person entered those woods all week and you JUST happen to connect on a nice buck. well that my freind is considered luck no matter how you slice it. conditions were perfect and it was your day sir. there are so many variables that can come into effect and ruin ones hunt but you are right your skill will take you to the point of ironing out that stand you beleive to be the one that will produce but unfortunatly THERE ARE NO GUARENTEES in deer hunting. you can have the best skills among all but there are many variables that are out of your hands and ours for that matter.

Alls im saying is your skill will only go so far before you happen to be a lucky man sitting over one of your proudest deer and hunting moments ever endured. But to say your skills drives your hunts to me would make me beleive you are a VERY successful deer hunter who usually comes out on top.

alittle luck never hurt anyone and even the "PROS" guys who get paid to hunt get lucky. its not a bad thing to admit, It DOES NOT make a guy less of a hunter. I happen to think my skills are pretty darn good However, i can only try to hold deer on my proprty or pick that stand i think will be a money spot, i can only add all my pcs of the pie together over years of experience like you stated but if that deer doesnt happen to ever come by your stand while your there, well id hope for my luck to change alittle and get back in the sattle.

I don't really see the logic. Bad weather? Hunt accordingly. Good weather? Hunt accordingly. Bad wind? Find a spot for a good wind, hunt accordingly.

Your scenario isn't describing luck...it's describing skill. To me, the bozo who hunts the same spot (public) and sees people/hunters on more than one occassion doesn't have his/her bright lights turned on, if you get my drift. Try hunting during the week when there's less pressure, or walk in a little further from the road. Heck, many hunters overlook sets that are tight to the road. I've had a few stands that were some of my most productive, and they were within 25 yards of a road.

Too many people tresspassing? Yeah, it happens...do something about it. Either work with landowner or LE. You could also be smart enough to reconize that YOU need to do something if you want to be successful, such as making a run to public land, knocking on some doors, etc. If you feel you cannot be successful on a particular parcel because of trespassing or outside pressure, not doing anything is a lack of skill...not bad luck.

Only have one hunting spot? Do something about it. Recognize that you're one bad experience away from losing all hunting land, one trespass from having no unpressured land, etc. I relied on one land a long time ago, and I got burned. Thankfully I worked to tag a deer or two each time. Now, I always work to have two, three, or more properties available. They may not be great, but at the very least, should something come up, I can rotate to another parcel.

As far as land use? I hunt heavily pressured land. I've lost three stands and a game camera (on two different parcels) this year. I also constantly see boot tracks on my family's property, and I'm doing my best to stop it. Sure, I could have moaned about it, reduced my seat time because I think my chances are lessened and it's everyone else's fault. I did complain a little, I miss my stands, the cam, and the money and time I spent on them...but I also decided I was going to be as successful as possible by scouting a new area, locating runs where it didn't appear humans were moving through, and set a stand.

I also learned a long time ago that gun hunting usually brought out the most problems (for me). That's when I had/have the most trespassing issues. I picked up a bow because of that, and I did something about it. I started bowhunting. The yahoos who gun hunt in my area are always a little miffed when I drag a buck out during bow because they haven't even stepped into the woods yet....but guess what, they don't do a thing about it, and then moan when they don't see a buck during gun because of all the pressure.

I will always agree that luck is a player, but its much more skill than luck. You may get lucky on an occassion, but that'll ALWAYS be an exception to the rule. 99 of 100 examples you could present is depedent upon skill, not luck. You'll never be able to change the weather, but you can change how you hunt. Failing to recognize and change your methods isn't bad luck. It's poor skill.

Last year, I shot three deer in a three-hour evening sit during bow season. Was it luck? Eh, some would say possibly. But, think about it. I located the spot after a partial cut was done on a corn field. I set the stand. I made three very soild kill shots. I also made the key decision to stay in the stand after harvest one, and two rather than getting down and doing my celebration dance (joking). The third deer was the buck, nothing special, a 1.5 yo. I made my own luck that day, just like any other.

Not being successful (on your own terms)? DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

My personal lowest denominator to success will always be filling a tag over the course of a season. I enjoy hunting to the fullest, the comraderie, etc. But, my personal goal is to always fill one tag a season, and I've done that each year since I decided I was going to be successful.

[Geno C]

your totally misleading what i am telling you and i will leave it at that.... if you dont understand what i am conveying to you by now you wont at all.

im not trying to change you as a hunter, iam saying there are alot of things YOU have no control over but since you sound like you have total control ill leave it at that.

i critique my hunts just as much as the next guy does to sharpen my own edge as a hunter but im not the type to think every possible thing that goes wrong in  hunt is me or a factor i can change every time. when i get to that point i will stop hunting because it will probably not be fun anymore.

im not going to argue with you, if you believe you are successful souly becasue your skills are great, well im not going to take the air out of your sails.

[phade]

your totally misleading what i am telling you and i will leave it at that.... if you dont understand what i am conveying to you by now you wont at all.

im not trying to change you as a hunter, iam saying there are alot of things YOU have no control over but since you sound like you have total control ill leave it at that.

i critique my hunts just as much as the next guy does to sharpen my own edge as a hunter but im not the type to think every possible thing that goes wrong in  hunt is me or a factor i can change every time. when i get to that point i will stop hunting because it will probably not be fun anymore.

im not going to argue with you, if you believe you are successful souly becasue your skills are great, well im not going to take the air out of your sails.

I cannot control everything, and as I've said time and time again, luck plays a part...but it's much more minor than the skill influence. Based on what is presented to me in the control front, my goal is to maxmize my ability to be successful (variable). It's that simple. Funny, it seems the more I do it, the "luckier" I get. I can honestly say I've never seen an able-bodied hunter maximize their variables and still go unsucessful without some sort of skill screw up. Keep in mind this means more than the deer walking by your stand (ie land access, pressure management, etc.).

I also think success is a personal determination. Your success and my success appears to be different. Nothing wrong with that. I know hunters who put me to shame on the skill front, and that's fine with me for now, although I keep learning to reach new heights. I play with the rules I made for myself, and that's what its about. I am committed to having fun while meeting my success measuring stick.

[steve863]

Sure sounds like you think you have control over everything.  What many hunters don't have control over is the time they can devote to hunting.  For many it's only a limited amount of time.  Some of these people have to make do with the time they have and it's not like they can ever get nearly as much control over some of these factors as some others could.  Some of us do the best we can, and hope that some luck is thrown into the mix from somewhere.  Nothing wrong with that either.  Those who think they kill deer because of their superior hunting skills probably are the same people who look down at people who are happy killing a forkhorn or a fawn just because they want some meat in the freezer.  These people managed to kill a deer just the same as anyone else, so exactly how much skill does it take to kill a deer??  If you only measure skill by killing big bucks, then of course many of these big buck killers will think they are supermen in the skills department when they compare themselves to just about anyone else out there.  There is way more to hunting than killing big bucks for many people.

[phade]

Sure sounds like you think you have control over everything.  What many hunters don't have control over is the time they can devote to hunting.  For many it's only a limited amount of time.  Some of these people have to make do with the time they have and it's not like they can ever get nearly as much control over some of these factors as some others could.  Some of us do the best we can, and hope that some luck is thrown into the mix from somewhere.  Nothing wrong with that either.  Those who think they kill deer because of their superior hunting skills probably are the same people who look down at people who are happy killing a forkhorn or a fawn just because they want some meat in the freezer.  These people managed to kill a deer just the same as anyone else, so exactly how much skill does it take to kill a deer??  If you only measure skill by killing big bucks, then of course many of these big buck killers will think they are supermen in the skills department when they compare themselves to just about anyone else out there.  There is way more to hunting than killing big bucks for many people.

Reading comprehension must be optional. When has killing a mature buck ever been a point in this discussion?

I already stated my lowest success goal is harvesting a deer over the course of a season...not big bucks. I already stated I killed a 1.5 last year, but apparently you missed that.

I have no less/more control over anything than the average joe, including time, as I've AGAIN stated time and time again. It's not about the controls...its about the variables. 

If you only have a few days to hunt a year, success likely isn't going to be measured in filled tags for most people. It's much more likely to be related to seeing deer, enjoying hunter company, getting out there.

[nyantler]

I would say, for me, skill.

It's not how many deer you see,

It's the shot when you do see.

A good clean well placed shot takes skill, not luck.

My 2 cents anyway's

It's absolutely how many deer you see..if you see no deer, then you can be the best shot in the world and you are not going to kill a deer

[phade]

I would say, for me, skill.

It's not how many deer you see,

It's the shot when you do see.

A good clean well placed shot takes skill, not luck.

My 2 cents anyway's

It's absolutely how many deer you see..if you see no deer, then you can be the best shot in the world and you are not going to kill a deer

Oy! This is never going to end ;D

That begs the question...where's the deer and why are you not seeing them? The great shot is the end of the entire approach.

C'mon we can keep this going forever!

[steve863]

Reading comprehension must be optional. When has killing a mature buck ever been a point in this discussion?

Well, you did state in your second post on this thread that it takes a lot of skill killing a mature buck.  I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that, but there are plenty of people who kill good bucks with generally little skill but somehow had plenty of luck on that particular day.  Also, if a person somehow has access to some really good deer habitat, is that considered luck or skill?  Was it skill or luck that he was somehow able to acquire it in a lease, inherit it, or buy it?  Whether it is luck or skill, can everyone really ever be in the same boat??  Lots of factors out there, no matter how hard someone tries, that are beyond ones control.  Most people don't have the time or means to devote to something as irrelevant in the scheme of things as hunting is.  They just go out and try to enjoy a day in the outdoors as best as they can and whether it was skill or luck that made their hunt successful or not isn't really given much thought by most. 

[nyantler]

If a guy doesn't have the time to devote to hunting he can't be devoting time to practice.. which means he is less proficient with the weapon he's using... which mean to me that he is probably missing more often or wounding more often. I don't get the argument that guys just don't have time to devote to hunting, they only get out one or two times a year... maybe they should take up another hobby that doesn't involve using a weapon.

[phade]

Reading comprehension must be optional. When has killing a mature buck ever been a point in this discussion?

Well, you did state in your second post on this thread that it takes a lot of skill killing a mature buck.  I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that, but there are plenty of people who kill good bucks with generally little skill but somehow had plenty of luck on that particular day.  Also, if a person somehow has access to some really good deer habitat, is that considered luck or skill?  Was it skill or luck that he was somehow able to acquire it in a lease, inherit it, or buy it?  Whether it is luck or skill, can everyone really ever be in the same boat??  Lots of factors out there, no matter how hard someone tries, that are beyond ones control.  Most people don't have the time or means to devote to something as irrelevant in the scheme of things as hunting is.  They just go out and try to enjoy a day in the outdoors as best as they can and whether it was skill or luck that made their hunt successful or not isn't really given much thought by most.

Thus realistic expecations of success must be made. Simple as that.

People here seem to think luck is the cause behind everything. One joe schmo hunting one day a year "lucks" into a buck...is that luck? Maybe...but maybe he also practiced at the range to be spot on, set up a stand in a spot he picked out good for sign. He/She still had to take steps to down the deer, in the most basic sense. There's no skill involved there, apparently. Magically it seems as if people here think luck is able to drop a buck in your lap like it's a lotto drawing.

Do you "lucky" hunters even need to pull the trigger, or do you just "wish" it dead when you see it, and the poor thing keels over?

[phade]

If a guy doesn't have the time to devote to hunting he can't be devoting time to practice.. which means he is less proficient with the weapon he's using... which mean to me that he is probably missing more often or wounding more often. I don't get the argument that guys just don't have time to devote to hunting, they only get out one or two times a year... maybe they should take up another hobby that doesn't involve using a weapon.

And the wheels on the bus go round and round...round and round...round and round.

Sportsmen and women are just as bad as politicians sometimes ;D

[bubba]

yes take up bowling.  You cant wound too many doing that.  Inexperience, ineffeciency and the inablilty to learn are one of the biggest problems facing hunting today.  If you dont put in the time and scout or put in the time to shoot dont blame the weather or lack of people pushing deer to you or the f***ing bullet was not good when you make a poor shot.  Eithe ryou are in for it, or you arent

[steve863]

If a guy doesn't have the time to devote to hunting he can't be devoting time to practice.. which means he is less proficient with the weapon he's using... which mean to me that he is probably missing more often or wounding more often. I don't get the argument that guys just don't have time to devote to hunting, they only get out one or two times a year... maybe they should take up another hobby that doesn't involve using a weapon.

I am all for getting proficient with ones weapon.  I myself sure know that I don't practice nearly as much as I used to, yet I can still put a deer down when I see one and haven't wounded one for a good many years now.  I think many hunters are in the same boat as me.  Time to devote to actual hunting is limited for most.  In your book does that mean these guys shouldn't be allowed to hunt at all if a few days is all they can devote to it?  You are one of the guys here who keep saying that hunters should pass up smaller deer and let them grow, so you probably wouldn't mind having these hunters not hunt at all?  They might let the little ones grow up for you to shoot a year or two down the road.  LOL

[steve863]

yes take up bowling.  You cant wound too many doing that. 

So we can gather that YOU never wounded one??  I say BS.  If you haven't, then you haven't hunted long enough.  I don't give a damn how good a shot someone is.  If you hunt long enough it WILL happen.  Plus, are you absolutely sure that any one that you might have missed, was with all certainty actually missed??  I doubt anyone can know with absolute certainty in all situations.  No one wants to wound an animal.  Thinking that one has such superior skill that it can't happen to them is just as silly a notion as the person who goes out unprepared and expecting a good outcome. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

yes take up bowling.  You cant wound too many doing that.  Inexperience, ineffeciency and the inablilty to learn are one of the biggest problems facing hunting today.  If you dont put in the time and scout or put in the time to shoot dont blame the weather or lack of people pushing deer to you or the f***ing bullet was not good when you make a poor shot.  Eithe ryou are in for it, or you arent

It isn't always that black and white, Bubba. Myself. the work I do varies alot in terms of travel and it can not be anticipated. I have had years that I was not able to practice with the bow like I want to. 2 out of the last 5 bow seasons I spent in the NZ woods with my rifle because of that. I had some range time and knew the gun was on but probably only put a box through the 2 rifles I hunt with. Is that ideal or prefered for me...no....is it adequate based on my experience and comfort level. it is.

I have had other years...luckily not recently, that I practiced my but off...winter archery leagues....summer and early fall shooting with bow and guns. Work changed and I was only able to hunt the 4 days of Thanksgiving weekend. Should I have stayed in because I didn't scout. No way. and that last time this happened to me I shot a 4 point on that Saturday. That was the last tinme that season I was able to hunt.

It is tough to sit here in each of our current situations and be critical of others abilities, dedication skill...or even ability to spell...LOL ( sorry but I had to) not knowing all the facts. remember..anyone of us could have life altering things happen. Be careful how we treat people and the limitations/expectations we place on others...we might just find ourselves in their shoes one day

[bubba]

Did I say I never wounded one? Umm no I didnt. BTW, I have been hunting for 40 years, 37 of which has been big game.  I wounded one and lost it, wounded one and found it.  But after that I go to the range much more, and I use a gun which makes me be a good shot(a single shot). I have gained the experience to know what is a good shot and what isnt.  I take good shots and only good shots. Anything iffy does not happen.  That is also because getting a deer to brag is the least reason I hunt.  I do not need to do better than you or anyone else.  Last year I saw one deer all season, a nice doe opening night of regular season. I did not have a dmp, so she walked. Want to know how I made it better this year?  I found a new place to hunt, I put in a lot of time scouting and doing stand placement and used the wind for me.  I took a 190 pound 8 point one shot from my single shot encore he ran 50 yards and dropped.  I took a nice doe filling my dmp. one she she dropped in her tracks.  Oh and btw, my bowling remark was tongue in cheek, which means it was meant as a joke.  it was a reply to a remark earlier. But get on your high horse and act all high and mighty and call me out on it. That is fine with me. 

[steve863]

Sorry Bubba, but I have seen more than one of your posts where you get on YOUR high horse and are critical of people's shooting abilities and then proceed to tell us how you kill your deer with that single shot rifle of yours.  Yes, we should all try to get as proficient as possible, but there are constraints for many people and these constraints shouldn't necessarily take them out of the hunting pastime.  Many of us are weekend warriors, whether we want to admit it or not.  That is all the time we can devote to it for various reasons.  No reason that these hunters should be put on any inferior list.  If only those who put every minute of their free time to shooting and scouting were allowed to purchase a hunting license, I think NYS or any state for that matter would sell mighty few licenses.

[bubba]

I never said they should be on an inferior list. My point is if you cant put in the time, dont expect the odds to be in yor favor.  If you wanted to play basketball on the school team, you would put in a smuch time as possible to hone your skills and be the best you can be.  I am a weekend warrior myself with the exception of taking one week a year to hunt. But on those weekends, I shoot, scout, plant food plots, set stands and do all I  can do to increase my odds.  Then there are the factors no one can change such as weather wind hunter pressure number of deer in an area etc.  All these things need to be factored in.  I am very proud of the fact I use a single shot. In my opinion, it has made me a better shooter and hunter. I also load my own ammo fir it, to make it the most accurate gun it can be.  My idea of a good group is an inch and a half at 100 yards 5 shot groups, not hitting a paper plate at 100 yards.  I just want to increase my chances when I do see a deer.

[Geno C]

LMAO... god i love these threads....

[Geno C]

Did I say I never wounded one? Umm no I didnt. BTW, I have been hunting for 40 years, 37 of which has been big game.  I wounded one and lost it, wounded one and found it.  But after that I go to the range much more, and I use a gun which makes me be a good shot(a single shot). I have gained the experience to know what is a good shot and what isnt.  I take good shots and only good shots. Anything iffy does not happen.  That is also because getting a deer to brag is the least reason I hunt.  I do not need to do better than you or anyone else.  Last year I saw one deer all season, a nice doe opening night of regular season. I did not have a dmp, so she walked. Want to know how I made it better this year?  I found a new place to hunt, I put in a lot of time scouting and doing stand placement and used the wind for me.  I took a 190 pound 8 point one shot from my single shot encore he ran 50 yards and dropped.  I took a nice doe filling my dmp. one she she dropped in her tracks.  Oh and btw, my bowling remark was tongue in cheek, which means it was meant as a joke.  it was a reply to a remark earlier. But get on your high horse and act all high and mighty and call me out on it. That is fine with me.

i know a guy who practices alot off season, gets in thwe woods and wounds 5 deer a season. never to be found. i dont associate myself with him. he is not my freind and i do not agree with what he does. but there are incidents where  guys shoot almost all summer with the bow/gun and still wound deer. its luck of the draw.

i guess the saying shooting at paper or a 3d target is no where near the same as shooting at alive animal, especially one a good size. Thank your stars you personally are "lucky" enough to practice in the form you do. some dont have the liberty as you i guess. i practice moderatly during the summer and ill tell you what Bubba put that deer in front of me and ill close that deal. i dont need to shoot my ass to make due.

The threads reads luck or skill... and absolutely you better have the skill to make that shot when it does come, in no way do i disagree. But even a guy who practices does make mistakes.

[bubba]

I never said practice makes perfect. I simply stated what works for me to as you say close the deal.  I guess that it upsets some people that I put in time and do a good job. Oh well

[Geno C]

If a guy doesn't have the time to devote to hunting he can't be devoting time to practice.. which means he is less proficient with the weapon he's using... which mean to me that he is probably missing more often or wounding more often. I don't get the argument that guys just don't have time to devote to hunting, they only get out one or two times a year... maybe they should take up another hobby that doesn't involve using a weapon.

and how do you know the guy who cant get as much to hunt due to maybe his wife, a kid, work or so on doesnt shoot the bow more then you or I out in his yard? ??? just cause he cant get away for the drive to the property or sneak away for a hunt more often doesnt mean hes not slinging arrows during the off season for a few minutes. you dont know.

[Geno C]

I never said practice makes perfect. I simply stated what works for me to as you say close the deal.  I guess that it upsets some people that I put in time and do a good job. Oh well

im so sure people are upset? i for one am not upset that you put the time in... i put my time in and it pays off for myself...

[bubba]

geesh I never said others do not put in their time.  Again I said what works for me. Get over it.