Too Many Yote's!!

[Mr VJP]

The other side of the issue begs the question, how did this NY ecosystem ever survive without any coyotes then?

 

[HOUNDS77]

I highly doubt coyotes put a hurt on ANY deer population. And I HIGHLY doubt if you think you are eliminating them from killing them because you see less only shows me they have once again out smarted you. They are there. But you have made them appear to have gone.

[Mr VJP]

Tracks in the snow and trail cameras tell the tale Hounds.  Why do you doubt what doesn't help your belief?  Try to keep an open mind.

 

Once again I ask, it wasn't long ago when there were no coyote in the Catskills.  Do you actually believe their invasion has not had any negative effects and they are nothing but positive additions to NY?

 

 

[Mr VJP]

Hounds, I can see why you're pro-coyote being a hound hunter and trapper.  That's great.  I heard a coyote pelt will now bring $100.  A good increase in price from a year ago.

 

[HOUNDS77]

Hardly $100 these days. Fur prices are down.

[HOUNDS77]

Owls, fox, hawks, skunks, coon, 'possums..all have an impact. Why are the owl and hawk proteccted when they do a number on small game? Would you be all far a season on them? Why is there a season on a crow? I believe the deer season is too long. Many of the farmers and golf courses wish deer were gone. Would I support shooting them all year? These people do have a legit complaint. Would I support it? I should, because less to get in the way. However I would not because IMO. it is just not ethical. Same belief as the coyote.

[Curmudgeon]

Owls, fox, hawks, skunks, coon, 'possums..all have an impact. Why are the owl and hawk proteccted when they do a number on small game? Would you be all far a season on them? Why is there a season on a crow? I believe the deer season is too long. Many of the farmers and golf courses wish deer were gone. Would I support shooting them all year? These people do have a legit complaint. Would I support it? I should, because less to get in the way. However I would not because IMO. it is just not ethical. Same belief as the coyote.

 

It isn't just unethical to think we could or should control every species we like or dislike for our advantage, it's hubris and a human conceit.

 

[Doc]

It's pretty hard to pick a side on this debate. There are pro and con arguments on both sides. Understanding that coyotes have not always been involved in deer population control in NYS, I am convinced that they could be eradicated, and life in the woods would continue to do just fine as it did not that many years ago. There is no doubt in my mind that hunters do the job just fine.

 

On the other hand, I do view coyotes as a resource. Trappers find coyotes as supplemental income that joins all the other species that provide them with cash. Yes in spite of fluctuating  fur prices they do serve as yet another resource from the trapline. They also serve a recreational resource for sport hunting. They are something to hunt that was not available years ago. I have no problem with that. 

 

Also, I am a bit cautious about spreading the notion that deer populations can be controlled by introducing predatory critters. Understanding how many people put up with hunting as being justified as a necessary endeavor of population control, it occurs to me that loud emphasis on the effects of coyotes on deer populations could encourage thoughts of the introduction of some rather nasty critters that I personally would not want to have to contend with. And then there is a rather self-serving notion that I champion that hunting is the only effective method of deer population control, and is the one irreplaceable method of deer population control. I'm not enthused about the general population starting to believe that there may be other avenues of deer control. 

 

Looking at all this coyote stuff, I can see elements of truth in both sides of the discussion. I think the coyote has a place in our environment, and being at the top of their food chain, I do believe that like any other species, some form of human intervention is necessary. Not to the point of eradication, but simply to the point of providing some sort of balance. I still want to have this species available to hunt. Trappers want this species to trap. I think they are a resource to be managed, and not a species subjected to eradication or total protection. I do think that like foxes, and bobcats, etc., the coyote is a species that does not benefit by being romanticized, given some undeserved high status or viewed as some mystical animal and protected beyond reasonableness, nor do I believe that they should be demonized beyond reality and removed from the landscape. Both positions are outside of reality and necessity. There is middle ground that we have discovered for other species. That's where our thinking should lie. 

[Curmudgeon]

Doc -

 

I would like to see an attitude like yours prevail among hunters in general. So many know so little. Hopefully discussions like this will open some minds.

[Mr VJP]

Doc -

 

I would like to see an attitude like yours prevail among hunters in general. So many know so little. Hopefully discussions like this will open some minds.

 

 

Maybe I am missing something, but I'm at a loss to think of a single post you have ever made that did not portray hunters in a negative way.  It seems you do not consider hunters to be worthy of respect.

 

So many know so little?  Quite a judgemental opinion you've got there.  It's not the first time I've seen you show it either.

 

No offense meant.  Just an observation that makes me wonder why you post on a hunting forum.

[nyantler]

I was never on any wagon until their numbers over powered our deer numbers. Their harassing of my livestock and their getting in and killing others were the straw that broke. Gutting deer and have them around you. Having them sneaking in on your turkey set ups.

 I believe they decimated the wildlife where they live around here and have spread out further to make a living. Not real sure. All i know is a couple 3 years of shoot on sight and heavy dog hunting has brought their numbers down.  Big Time.  Thats why i dont hold alot of faith in the...You kill more and more will come theory. After 3 years that has just not happened.

So you're mad at the coyotes for doing what they do naturally?

 

How much could the numbers be down when you're still shooting quite a few coyotes still? Even if what you say is true, you have no idea  what kind of negative impact that might have on the rest of the wildlife in the area.. you can't eliminate or break a cog in the machine and expect the machine to run correctly... mass killings of coyotes without any care about the impact on the rest of the ecosystem is irresponsible... and it is not theory.. it is fact... what you may be experiencing could be a lull in the storm. Either way... you have become the bane of good management by being a consumer and not a conserver... there is a difference.

[Mr VJP]

Coyote are not cogs in the machine.  The machine was running fine without them.  They are more like water in the fuel.  Eventually it is going to cause irreparable damage.

 

[nyantler]

It's pretty hard to pick a side on this debate. There are pro and con arguments on both sides. Understanding that coyotes have not always been involved in deer population control in NYS, I am convinced that they could be eradicated, and life in the woods would continue to do just fine as it did not that many years ago. There is no doubt in my mind that hunters do the job just fine.

 

 

Although that could be true... the biggest overpopulation in NY was when the coyotes weren't here and hunters weren't keeping up at all... since the increase in buck and DMP tags, longer seasons and the introduction of the coyote we have seen progress in herd numbers across most of the state... yet we still, according to the DEC are barely keeping up... and with fewer numbers of small game hunters I'm sure the coyotes have helped keep little varmint numbers down as well. I'm not positive that getting rid of the coyote now would be such a good thing. But I'm all for hunting them as a means of keeping their numbers in check. I just don't see the need for their total eradication.

[ncountry]

 I'm not positive that getting rid of the coyote now would be such a good thing. But I'm all for hunting them as a means of keeping their numbers in check. I just don't see the need for their total eradication.

 

I am in agreement with what you stated above...

 

 

I think for the most part we do not see the effects of coyotes on our deer population until we have lowered the population dramatically ourselves. There are a few areas that I frequent , that I am confident, given a scientific study.  The coyotes are keeping the deer population to a low level without much chance of recovery without our help to rid the area of some coyotes.

 

An example would be a particular area of 2500 acres that was practically clear-cut. For decades the area was hunted by a handful of "bigwoods" hunters , taking a few deer a year. There seemed to be a healthy population of deer (not many, it was all mature forest) with some nice bucks taken.The 1st fall after the cut was a deer "massacre"  18 bucks and at least that many doe, that I know of were taken.. When suddenly one could sit on a hill and see for 300 yds and a gravel road 3 miles down the length of the property, the deer were no longer safe. The 2nd year #s were way down. And eventually everybody stopped hunting it.

 

In the past 8 years or so there has not been more than a few deer taken any given year, and most of them all have been bucks 0 dmps and nobody bothers archery or muzzleloader hunting due to lack of deer. Much easier to stay down in the farmland.

 

With the food sources plentiful after the cut the herd should have recovered quickly(good food,easy winters,cover and no hunters). You couldn't see 40 yds anywhere due to the briars and brush. I walk this land fairly often and with snow on the ground it is rare to cross a deer track. I am guessing  (generously guessing) that there is not any more than 6-10 deer living on this whole piece regularly. Now there are always coyote tracks that run the full length of the old (overgrown now) road and the creek/swamp as well as everywhere else.

 

 I do not see any other reasons besides the coyote.? We shoot a few coyotes , but they are Wiley critters..lol

[jjb4900]

maybe it's time to take into account that there are other predators out their besides hunters to keep deer herds in check and it's time to reduce deer tags in areas with high Coyote populations.

[ncountry]

maybe it's time to take into account that there are other predators out their besides hunters to keep deer herds in check and it's time to reduce deer tags in areas with high Coyote populations.

 

This may be the "right " thing to do.

 

 

BUT, I do NOT like it..lol

[Curmudgeon]

Maybe I am missing something, but I'm at a loss to think of a single post you have ever made that did not portray hunters in a negative way.  It seems you do not consider hunters to be worthy of respect.

 

So many know so little?  Quite a judgemental opinion you've got there.  It's not the first time I've seen you show it either.

 

No offense meant.  Just an observation that makes me wonder why you post on a hunting forum.

 

"Perhaps Curmudgeons have gotten a bad rap in the same way the messenger is blamed for the message. They have the temerity to comment on the human condition without apology. They not only refuse to applaud mediocrity, they howl it down with morose glee. Their versions of the truth unsettle us, and we hold it against them, even though they soften it with humor."

[Mr VJP]

So, my observation is correct then.

 

[jjb4900]

This may be the "right " thing to do.

 

 

BUT, I do NOT like it..lol

me neither, I think they have done a number on deer and turkey populations alike, and wish they weren't here.........but at some point something has to give.......but on the other hand, I don't know if they are really the cause of low numbers due to the fact that they have been in states with good deer populations for a lot longer than they have been running around NY.

[nyantler]

Coyote are not cogs in the machine.  The machine was running fine without them.  They are more like water in the fuel.  Eventually it is going to cause irreparable damage.

Okay lets do this logically... Show me any proven evidence that coyotes have caused any real damage to the deer herd across NY.. or even better, irreparable damage... and remember, coyotes have been in NY for 70-80 years, maybe longer, no one really knows for sure... so this shouldn't be too hard.

 

I'll save you a lot of time here if you like by letting you know you won't find any... because none exists... the hatred of the coyote in NY comes as a result of a myth perpetuated by bad hunters that have trouble seeing and killing deer... somehow lots of good hunters started buying into the myth.. and it's snowballed into the big fairy tale folk lore that we know now.

 

Any animal that has been part of the ecosystem for nearly a century is a cog in the machine and an important part of the balance of nature.

[Mr VJP]

How about looking into coyote problems in other states in America?  Maybe NY just refuses to admit it has a problem so as not to incur the wrath of eco-fascists.

 

BTW, there were none in my area of the Catskills until about 10 years ago.

 

Edited February 4, 2015 by Mr VJP

[Pygmy]

People have gone to far lengths to eradicate coytoes..

 

Shooting, hounds, shooting from light airplanes, baits laced with stryhhicenene( sp)

little guns buried in the ground with cyanide pellets, traps, snares, yada yada..

 

The coyotes thumbed thier noses at all of these methods, and PROSPERED..

 

We AIN'T GONNA get rid of them...

 

Shoot 'em if you want..Thet ARE fun to shoot..

 

But don't think you are going to get rid of them.

 

At the end of the day, we'll still have some coyotes and we'll still have some deer..

[wolc123]

I have a sort of love hate relationship with the coyote. To me, the venison from deer less than a year old is natures "perfect food" and it seems a shame that such food "fit for a king", should go "to the dogs". That is where the hate part comes in. I would bet that most of the pounds of venison that the coyotes actually consume comes from older, weak deer. Removing them is a good thing, so I got a little love for the coyote there. When the fawns are born, escape conditions are good and there is plenty of other coyote food around, but at the end of the rut, when the old bucks in particular are at their weakest, snow often hurts the deer's escape chances.

I think that is where a lot of the hate comes in from deer hunters. I know there are many who are fixated on antlers and/or harvesting older bucks. I personally do not suffer from that condition, but rather I am fixated at harvesting the highest quality venison, and that comes from deer that are less than 3 years old. The "perfect" deer for me, from a quality and quantity standpoint is a 2-1/2 year old buck. After that I wouldn't care if the coyotes got all the bucks.

I would personally rather take the young bucks than does because they taste just as good, are easier to butcher (less fat to trim), and killing them compared to a doe makes it easier to score the following season. The last few seasons, I have passed on numerous 1-1/2 yr bucks early in the respective seasons, so that I can get a crack at a 2-1/2. The quality is about the same here, but the quantity is way more on the 2-1/2. I have also been blessed with quite a few 6 month bucks over the years(one this past season) and they truly are in a class by themselves and "fit for a king" in taste.

Most of my love for the coyote comes from the fact that they are such an efficient predator of that "feathered rat", the wild turkey. I can think of few foods that are lower on my personal preference list than wild turkey and feeding them to the dogs is ideal as far as I am concerned. Turkeys also hit my field-corn hard when their numbers get high and that is my biggest problem with them. Raccoons also hit it hard when they get out of control but at least they can be legally removed rather easily by trapping. I am certain that my partner the coyote helps out a bit with them masked bandits also. Man does not control the balance of Nature, but our creator does, and the coyote is just another of his tools to keep the balance.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

So you're mad at the coyotes for doing what they do naturally?

 

How much could the numbers be down when you're still shooting quite a few coyotes still? Even if what you say is true, you have no idea  what kind of negative impact that might have on the rest of the wildlife in the area.. you can't eliminate or break a cog in the machine and expect the machine to run correctly... mass killings of coyotes without any care about the impact on the rest of the ecosystem is irresponsible... and it is not theory.. it is fact... what you may be experiencing could be a lull in the storm. Either way... you have become the bane of good management by being a consumer and not a conserver... there is a difference.

Well lets just say what we are killing now is more to the norm of what coyotes should be than what we have killed years past. When i buy hunting land and all i have to hunt are dogs then i have a problem. If they are doing their normal thing of digging under 8ft fences and killing livestock for the fun of it i would say they are not trying to survive. They are friggin killers. When you have more dogs than deer, you have a problem. When you have 109,000 acres of unhunted property where there is very little if any coyote hunting you will end up with problems. When a couple guys are gutting a deer in the dark and they have coyotes trying to run them off the kill then there is a problem. We have good numbers of small game some years and others not so much. 

Bottom line is i bought land to hunt deer, not dogs.  After 3 years i do not believe anything about a lull. I now have lots of deer both young and old and we still have some dogs running around. But i can tell you that you can no longer stand in my backyard,in the evening, overlooking 700 acres and hear 4 different packs of dogs yipping and yapping to each other. And as i said in another post that there now are complaints of yotes being in the fenced in cantonment area on drum digging thru garbage and talk of pets missing so who knows. Maybe that is their safe haven now as its only across the road.

[HOUNDS77]

I doubt they are killing livestock. I think people use the coyote as an excuse because they cannot shoot any deer.