The perfect North American pair

[wolc123]

I would go along with the 130 gr 270 as a close to perfect deer load at least.   I would consider the 180 gr 30/06 to be a so-so load for deer, elk, and moose, and close to perfect for black bear.   With that pair you could indeed cover all North American big game but they are too close in performance to make a good pair.   A couple better classic American "pairs" would be a .243 and the 30/06, on the low end, or the 270 and a 300 Win mag on the high end.  Either of those pairs would widen the spectrum a bit over the 270 30/06 pair.   My favorite deer load is a 150 gr 30/06 and I would rate that as a little closer to perfect than the mentioned 270 load.   The main reason for that is ammo availability, and more capacity for bigger loads on larger game.  I used it last fall on my largest bodied whitetail to date, shown in the photo.   That big Adirondack buck field dressed well over 200 lbs.  I know that because I could only get the front of him off the ground with a rope and pulley before I lifted myself in the air and I weigh 200.  Thankfully we had an ATV to make the lift.  He was quartering away at 300 yards and I struck him high on the second last rib.  I had at least 100 ft of elevation on the buck when I fired the shot.   The bullet passed diagonally thru his chest, above the heart, destroying both lungs.   It lodged inside the opposite arm-pit.   He dropped dead on impact, never taking a step or shedding a drop of blood from the entry wound, and there was no exit.  

    

When it comes to dropping deer on impact, it depends more on when the bullet strikes than most other factors, including bullet energy or design.   If the arrival in the boiler room coincides with the power-stroke of the heart,  the resulting over-pressure of the cardio-vascular system will end up in an immediate "lights out" of the brain.  I would guess that's about 1/3 or the time based on the numbers I have seen myself using various calibers and loads over the last 35 years or so.    Certainly that buck with the destroyed heart at 100 yards in a prior post took a lot more energy than I delivered at 300 yards with my 06, but the timing was just off a little.  

        

[wildcat junkie]

  

    

When it comes to dropping deer on impact, it depends more on when the bullet strikes than most other factors, including bullet energy or design.   If the arrival in the boiler room coincides with the power-stroke of the heart,  the resulting over-pressure of the cardio-vascular system will end up in an immediate "lights out" of the brain.  I would guess that's about 1/3 or the time based on the numbers I have seen myself using various calibers and loads over the last 35 years or so.    Certainly that buck with the destroyed heart at 100 yards in a prior post took a lot more energy than I delivered at 300 yards with my 06, but the timing was just off a little.  

I've read the same theory & I am a firm believer. I have shot does that would dress 80# broadside through the lungs @ 75yds W/a 140gr  .284 polymer tipped bullet that left the muzzle @ 3150fps & had them run 30yds before piling up.

 

I have hit bucks that dressed 170# broadside through the lungs @ 245yds W/the same load & had them drop straight down into an upright position W/their legs tucked under them.

[Borngeechee]

I would go along with the 130 gr 270 as a close to perfect deer load at least. I would consider the 180 gr 30/06 to be a so-so load for deer, elk, and moose, and close to perfect for black bear. With that pair you could indeed cover all North American big game but they are too close in performance to make a good pair. A couple better classic American "pairs" would be a .243 and the 30/06, on the low end, or the 270 and a 300 Win mag on the high end. Either of those pairs would widen the spectrum a bit over the 270 30/06 pair. My favorite deer load is a 150 gr 30/06 and I would rate that as a little closer to perfect than the mentioned 270 load. The main reason for that is ammo availability, and more capacity for bigger loads on larger game. I used it last fall on my largest bodied whitetail to date, shown in the photo. That big Adirondack buck field dressed well over 200 lbs. I know that because I could only get the front of him off the ground with a rope and pulley before I lifted myself in the air and I weigh 200. Thankfully we had an ATV to make the lift. He was quartering away at 300 yards and I struck him high on the second last rib. I had at least 100 ft of elevation on the buck when I fired the shot. The bullet passed diagonally thru his chest, above the heart, destroying both lungs. It lodged inside the opposite arm-pit. He dropped dead on impact, never taking a step or shedding a drop of blood from the entry wound, and there was no exit.

When it comes to dropping deer on impact, it depends more on when the bullet strikes than most other factors, including bullet energy or design. If the arrival in the boiler room coincides with the power-stroke of the heart, the resulting over-pressure of the cardio-vascular system will end up in an immediate "lights out" of the brain. I would guess that's about 1/3 or the time based on the numbers I have seen myself using various calibers and loads over the last 35 years or so. Certainly that buck with the destroyed heart at 100 yards in a prior post took a lot more energy than I delivered at 300 yards with my 06, but the timing was just off a little.

Nice buck for sure. You guys have no problem sharing info and that's what I really like about it here. Thanks.

[Pygmy]

 

I've read the same theory & I am a firm believer. I have shot does that would dress 80# broadside through the lungs @ 75yds W/a 140gr  .284 polymer tipped bullet that left the muzzle @ 3150fps & had them run 30yds before piling up.

 

I have hit bucks that dressed 170# broadside through the lungs @ 245yds W/the same load & had them drop straight down into an upright position W/their legs tucked under them.

I'm not sure I adhere to that theory...

I have shot perhaps 150 big game animals myself, and seen quite a few others shot by my partners over the years. I butcher my own game, so I can do a good post mortem of the terminal effects.

I can never remember a medium or big game animal dropping in it's tracks from a heart/lung shot unless the bullet hit or CAME CLOSE to the spine or a major skeletal feature like a shoulder.

I once shot a whitetail buck a 100 grain bullet in a 25-06 and made a high lung shot. The bullet did not break the spine, but it passed close enough underneath it to affect it with it's shock wave. It dropped in it's tracks.I have also seen several animals take non fatal hits ABOVE the spine and drop like a rock, but then recover and attempt to run off unless a finishing shot is made.

Maybe the timing has been off on the animals I've seen killed..All I know is that probably 99% of the animals I have seen heart shot or center lung shot have run or staggered from 10 to 100 yards before piling up, unless the CNS or major skeletal features have been affected.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Pygmy

[wildcat junkie]

 

I'm not sure I adhere to that theory...

I have shot perhaps 150 big game animals myself, and seen quite a few others shot by my partners over the years. I butcher my own game, so I can do a good post mortem of the terminal effects.

I can never remember a medium or big game animal dropping in it's tracks from a heart/lung shot unless the bullet hit or CAME CLOSE to the spine or a major skeletal feature like a shoulder.

I once shot a whitetail buck a 100 grain bullet in a 25-06 and made a high lung shot. The bullet did not break the spine, but it passed close enough underneath it to affect it with it's shock wave. It dropped in it's tracks.I have also seen several animals take non fatal hits ABOVE the spine and drop like a rock, but then recover and attempt to run off unless a finishing shot is made.

Maybe the timing has been off on the animals I've seen killed..All I know is that probably 99% of the animals I have seen heart shot or center lung shot have run or staggered from 10 to 100 yards before piling up, unless the CNS or major skeletal features have been affected.

Of the 30 or more deer I have taken W/CF rifles over the last 15 season, perhaps 10 of those have been perfect broadside hits through the center of the heart/lung area. No bone hit other than ribs. 3 have dropped in their tracks, Most run a short distance as you say. None of the 3 were heart shot, rather hit a bit above the heart in the bundle of major blood vessels. All of them were relaxed & feeding when hit.

 

 Maybe you are right, but I can find no explanation for those 3 acting unlike all the others.

 

Of them all, I've had perhaps 5 or 6 that dropped from skeletal/lung hits, 2 that were hit right behind//below the ear. All of the rest were varying angles through the lungs or the heart & they ran. Frontal shots or steep angling on are the worst for running W/O a blood trail.

Edited March 2, 2015 by wildcat junkie

[jjb4900]

you always have to factor in whether or not Jesus or the Easter Bunny want you to take the deer,if so, all else is irrelevant .....unless you have some other mythological creature to help out............ your imagination is the limit!

[Pygmy]

 

you always have to factor in whether or not Jesus or the Easter Bunny want you to take the deer,if so, all else is irrelevant .....unless you have some other mythological creature to help out............ your imagination is the limit!

 

Mythological creature ?? You mean the Easter Bunny isn't REAL..??...

[Four Season Whitetail's]

It's a bit much for Whitetail at 50 yards though, wouldn't you say?

Nope. Not when blown through the ribs. I try to shoot any deer, I shoot with that beast through the ribs. Shoulders do not hold up well thats for sure. I bought the gun as my only rifle to use anywhere on anything that i may hunt in my lifetime.  The yotes that get bite by the beast really show the pressure that bullet carries. Main goal is a clean kill with fast death. Many are dead before they hit the ground i'm sure. The bucket list has an Alaska Brown bear hunt on it and cant wait to see what that gun will do to a pile of fury like one of those.

[Pygmy]

I've spent some time around grizzlies and brown bears..I never had the urge to open hostilities with one, unless he was trying to eat me. Those things just LOOK like bad news.

Many bear guides consider the .300 mags as minimum for big bears.

For sure, if I were hunting them with a .300 mag I would want to use a heavy,stoutly constructed bullet..

I'd much RATHER have a .338, a .375, or my 9.3 x 62..

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I've spent some time around grizzlies and brown bears..I never had the urge to open hostilities with one, unless he was trying to eat me. Those things just LOOK like bad news.

Many bear guides consider the .300 mags as minimum for big bears.

For sure, if I were hunting them with a .300 mag I would want to use a heavy,stoutly constructed bullet..

I'd much RATHER have a .338, a .375, or my 9.3 x 62..

I hear that. Not sure why i really want to go but i have always wanted the thrill and look of one of those beasts standing up on its hind legs looking at the hunter 100 yards away and knowing that now is probably the time to center the scope and pray. lol

 

Where is your sense of adventure my friend?  How about them boys that tackle the job with stick and string?  A well placed shot will bring down the biggest of beasts!

[BizCT]

I'd love to get a grizzly or brown bear, but just can't justify the $15k - $20k price tag

[Pygmy]

Sense of adventure ? Guess I'm just a pussy that way..

I never had the urge to hunt something that might tear me to shreds or trample me into the dust if I happen to screw up my shot placement.

I also don't skydive, jump motorcycles across canyons, or play with highly venomous snakes...

[Elmo]

Kate Upton has the perfect North American pair.

[BizCT]

Kate Upton has the perfect North American pair.

 

Yes, but overall she in general is too big for my liking

Edited March 2, 2015 by Biz-R-OWorld

[Pygmy]

 

Yes, but overall she in general is too big for my liking

 

I'd like to post an analogy, but since this is a family forum, I'll decline...

Just picture a beagle having a meaningful relationship with a German Shepard..<<GRIN>>.... Of course, I'M the beagle...

[Pygmy]

 

I hear that. Not sure why i really want to go but i have always wanted the thrill and look of one of those beasts standing up on its hind legs looking at the hunter 100 yards away and knowing that now is probably the time to center the scope and pray. lol

 

Where is your sense of adventure my friend?  How about them boys that tackle the job with stick and string?  A well placed shot will bring down the biggest of beasts!

 

MOST of the guys who shoot big bears with archery tackle are nonresidents and therefore have to hire a guide in either Alaska or the Canadian Provinces to hunt grizzly/brown bears and also polar bears.

That means that while they are shooting the bear with thier bow they have a guy with icewater in his veins and a rifle with a bore as big as your thumb standing beside them, and frequently the guide has to finish the job to keep the bear from either escaping, or ,often from charging in and killing the silly son of a bitch that just shot him with an arrow. Fred Bear had to shoot several polar bears with his bow before he could enter one in the record books, because his guides had to keep killing the damn things with a rifle to prevent them from shredding Fred's skinny, plaid clad ass.

Anyone who takes on a grizzly, brown or polar bear with a bow WITHOUT backup of a heavy rifle has a death wish, IMHO...

[dbHunterNY]

Nope. Not when blown through the ribs. I try to shoot any deer, I shoot with that beast through the ribs. Shoulders do not hold up well thats for sure. I bought the gun as my only rifle to use anywhere on anything that i may hunt in my lifetime.  The yotes that get bite by the beast really show the pressure that bullet carries. Main goal is a clean kill with fast death. Many are dead before they hit the ground i'm sure. The bucket list has an Alaska Brown bear hunt on it and cant wait to see what that gun will do to a pile of fury like one of those.

 

not sure on the bullet/load but my dad's friend has hunted all kinds of stuff with his rifle and it's a 300 wrby mag.  he's got a full body mount of a 10.5+ foot square bear on a rock formation.  his rifle seemed to do just fine.  didn't hardly run at all.  guess they were pretty worried about other bears skirting them while trying to break it down though he told me.

[dbHunterNY]

 

 

MOST of the guys who shoot big bears with archery tackle are nonresidents and therefore have to hire a guide in either Alaska or the Canadian Provinces to hunt grizzly/brown bears and also polar bears.

That means that while they are shooting the bear with thier bow they have a guy with icewater in his veins and a rifle with a bore as big as your thumb standing beside them, and frequently the guide has to finish the job to keep the bear from either escaping, or ,often from charging in and killing the silly son of a bitch that just shot him with an arrow. Fred Bear had to shoot several polar bears with his bow before he could enter one in the record books, because his guides had to keep killing the damn things with a rifle to prevent them from shredding Fred's skinny, plaid clad ass.

Anyone who takes on a grizzly, brown or polar bear with a bow WITHOUT backup of a heavy rifle has a death wish, IMHO...

 

i'll back that with mountain lions out of a tree with a bow.  I've seen lots of bear footage where they didn't follow up but a big hand cannon was at the ready.

Edited March 2, 2015 by dbHunterNY

[wildcat junkie]

 

 

MOST of the guys who shoot big bears with archery tackle are nonresidents and therefore have to hire a guide in either Alaska or the Canadian Provinces to hunt grizzly/brown bears and also polar bears.

That means that while they are shooting the bear with thier bow they have a guy with icewater in his veins and a rifle with a bore as big as your thumb standing beside them, and frequently the guide has to finish the job to keep the bear from either escaping, or ,often from charging in and killing the silly son of a bitch that just shot him with an arrow. Fred Bear had to shoot several polar bears with his bow before he could enter one in the record books, because his guides had to keep killing the damn things with a rifle to prevent them from shredding Fred's skinny, plaid clad ass.

Anyone who takes on a grizzly, brown or polar bear with a bow WITHOUT backup of a heavy rifle has a death wish, IMHO...

Have you even seen that bear in the Gainsville, FL museum? You definitely have put a crick in you neck to see its eyeballs.

[dbHunterNY]

I'd love to get a grizzly or brown bear, but just can't justify the $15k - $20k price tag

 

my dad's friend with hunt, mounting and everything costed him $25k

[Pygmy]

I haven't seen the one in Gainesville, but the one standing in the Anchorage Airport Terminal certainly lets you know that when you arrive there, you are no longer at the TOP of the food chain.

I've seen some big ones on the hoof while hunting in Alaska..

Even the medium sized ones were impressive...Defintely an animal to respect...I would just as soon go my way and them go their way...

[wolc123]

I am mainly a meat-hunter, so I doubt I would ever pursue the brown bears.  I cant imagine them being very good eating.  I know the black bears over 300 lbs or so ain't much good.   I don't expect we will have too many bucks survive this record-breaking winter in upstate NY, so a 250'ish pound black bear is number one on my target list now.  Finally there is some warmer weather in the forecast.  It won't be too long now until lots of them that size should be coming out of their winter hide-outs.  I think my odds of encountering an eating-size bear will be better than just about any buck for a while anyhow.  I am going to switch my 30/06 over to 180's prior to making the fall hunt this year.  I will save my 150's until the buck population gets re-established in a few years.  If not, it's been a long time since I hit a deer with a 180 and it will be interesting to give it a try again.   The last time was a spike mule deer out in Colorado about 15 years ago that field-dressed about 140 pounds. He got back up and staggered off about 30 yards prior to expiration, after taking one in the shoulder from 100 yards.   Eating that mule deer sure made me appreciate the taste of our NY whitetails and black bears.    I'll take the Adirondacks over the Rockies any day.           

Edited March 2, 2015 by wolc123

[grampy]

Although I'm sure that there will be some winter kill deer this year.The notion that there will be no bucks to kill for years, is a bit off kilter.

[wildcat junkie]

 

 

I'd like to post an analogy, but since this is a family forum, I'll decline...

Just picture a beagle having a meaningful relationship with a German Shepard..<<GRIN>>.... Of course, I'M the beagle...

I'm afraid that beagle would get mercilessly ground into the turf.

[wildcat junkie]

I haven't seen the one in Gainesville, but the one standing in the Anchorage Airport Terminal certainly lets you know that when you arrive there, you are no longer at the TOP of the food chain.

I've seen some big ones on the hoof while hunting in Alaska..

Even the medium sized ones were impressive...Defintely an animal to respect...I would just as soon go my way and them go their way...

There are 2 flights of stairs going to the 2nd floor & the bear is on the landing between flights. Going up you are constantly over shadowed by it. Going down you are descending into his grasp. Either way you have to turn your back on it to proceed.