NY's Future Under A Fracking Ban

[wildcat junkie]

Ancient history has no bearing on today's industry, which operates under more stringent oversight, with far greater safety measures in place.

By "stringent oversight", are you referring to the government regulations that you so vehemently oppose?

[Dave]

Doc, I'm not directing this at you, but I'd like to see someone post current factual information on any actual verifiable evidence of drinking water contamination in PA.

 

After more than a decade of fracking there, with all of the suspected horror associated with the practice, the state should be suffering mass casualties and environmental catastrophe on an unprecedented scale by now.

 

Either the press is in bed with the PA government and the gas industry, or the predicted disaster just isn't there.

 

I guess you don't know what a non disclosure agreement is for to hide the truth about any contamination you sustain while they are fracking on your property. There have been cases of water contamination in Pennsylvania guess you just mised that one.

The BP oil spill didn't happen over night but it did happen only problem for BP was they couldn't hide that one through non disclosure.

 

[ncountry]

I look at it this way. . ..Is everyone that could be negatively effected well compensated for their risk? However small it may be... Once an accident happens, there are no take backs... And it is basically a 100% certainty that one will occur given enough time..... If I was the landowner looking to make a fortune off fracking rights I would be poed.. If , like me I had a small piece of property with a nice stream and springs that I planned on passing down to the next generation I am pleased...

[EspressoBuzz]

No one told me about the third arm growing outta my head option! That can come in handy!

[Dave]

I guess you don't know what a non disclosure agreement is for to hide the truth about any contamination you sustain while they are fracking on your property. There have been cases of water contamination in Pennsylvania guess you just mised that one.

The BP oil spill didn't happen over night but it did happen only problem for BP was they couldn't hide that one through non disclosure.

 

 

In months and years that followed, the Pennsylvania state Department of Environmental Protection found that methane was seeping from nearby gas wells drilled by Cabot Oil and Gas into water wells in the area where Fiorentino lived. Cabot responded that methane comes from the ground and factors other than drilling can bring it into contact with water supplies. Cabot denied that its operations caused the problem, and at one point accused the DEP of fabricating the story.

The events in Dimock highlighted a battle over whether fracking was good or bad. At the heart of it was the issue of trust, and who could be believed — industry, government, or neither. The industry, at the time, was standing by a claim that fracking had not contaminated a single water well throughout its history. This motivated journalists, critics, and activists who sensed a bending of the facts and possibly a cover up.

After Fiorentino's well exploded, Walter Hang, head of an environmental research firm in Ithaca, began searching data bases from the DEC to see if he could find records of similar incidents in New York State. He uncovered 270 files documenting waste-water spills, well contamination, explosions, methane migration and ecological damage related to gas production in the state since 1979.

Those findings were the subject of an article in this newspaper on Nov. 8, 2009. Continuing his research in 2010, Hang uncovered documents that showed William T. Boria, a water resources specialist at the Chautauqua County Health Department, reported his agency had received more than 140 complaints related to water pollution or gas migration associated with nearby drilling operations.

In a 2004 memo summarizing the issue, Boria stated: "Those complaints that were recorded are probably just a fraction of the actual problems that occurred." County health officials tabulated information on 53 of the cases from 1983 to 2008 on a spreadsheet, including one where a home was evacuated after the water well exploded.

 

[growalot]

 

This is part of the article you posted.  Every single report I've seen has the same type of disclaimer in it.  Why would this be needed?

 

 

 Here's the difference between you and me...I posted the link for all to read in it's entirety and make a decision.....YOU took out just a part of the article, to make a point and in hopes no one reading after your post would go back and click the link I provided......

 

See that is the type of thing these corporations do ...the old smoke and mirrors...but ppl are a tad wiser these days....

[jjb4900]

well, I have no dog in this fight, but can see both sides of the argument..........I can't imagine how pumping chemicals into the ground and disrupting what lies beneath can't at some point create problems....on the other hand, I can understand how some want to create jobs to save the economy of their dying towns...but, I also would think that the larger amount of money being made would go to people who don't live in those towns but live elsewhere..I know plenty of people looking to cash in on natural gas wells and wind turbines who would put zero money into the local economy.

[Mr VJP]

By "stringent oversight", are you referring to the government regulations that you so vehemently oppose?

 

Absolutely not!  The industry has put it's own oversight in place that is actually effective.  They know what works and what does not.  The government has no clue.  Anything the government puts in place would probably be as effective as anything else it institutes, a dismal, inefficient failure.  Gun control regulations are a perfect example.  It would be like letting garbage men write regulations for brain surgeons.

[Mr VJP]

 Here's the difference between you and me...I posted the link for all to read in it's entirety and make a decision.....YOU took out just a part of the article, to make a point and in hopes no one reading after your post would go back and click the link I provided......

 

See that is the type of thing these corporations do ...the old smoke and mirrors...but ppl are a tad wiser these days....

 

No, the difference between us is that you think you know someone else's heart.  I ENCOURAGE everyone to open your link and read the article.  It will do even more to point out the ACCUSATIONS made with no substantiating evidence to back up the claims.

 

People who want to ban fracking have been known to alter reports and put out false narratives to support their cause, because they plan to win the fight at any cost.

 

If any of these "studies" had any validity, don't you think the PA DEC would have to respond to them?  Perhaps you believe the entire state of PA is corrupt, without concern for the health of it's citizens and is being bribed to allow an unsafe industry to rape the entire state?

 

I find that to be a scenario beyond belief.

[Mr VJP]

 I also would think that the larger amount of money being made would go to people who don't live in those towns but live elsewhere..I know plenty of people looking to cash in on natural gas wells and wind turbines who would put zero money into the local economy.

 

Every landowner in a gas area of PA was paid $2000 to $3000 an acre for permission to drill beneath their land.  I would assume they spend that money locally.

 

Large farm owners have been paid small fortunes, and have bought new equipment, new cars, built new farm buildings, done home repairs and have even hired new hands to work their land as well.

 

People who have well heads on their land get a monthly royalty check for the gas extracted from the well, to the tune of many thousands a month, and they have not moved out of the area, but many have bought new homes and other luxury items they would not have otherwise bought to stimulate their local economy.

 

These people also shop and patronize all sorts of local businesses, as do the transient workers who live in the area for years while they are working on the wells.

 

All of this boosts the local economy.

 

NY is not going to see any of this economic boost in the future.

[Dave]

No, the difference between us is that you think you know someone else's heart.  I ENCOURAGE everyone to open your link and read the article.  It will do even more to point out the ACCUSATIONS made with no substantiating evidence to back up the claims.

 

People who want to ban fracking have been known to alter reports and put out false narratives to support their cause, because they plan to win the fight at any cost.

 

If any of these "studies" had any validity, don't you think the PA DEC would have to respond to them?  Perhaps you believe the entire state of PA is corrupt, without concern for the health of it's citizens and is being bribed to allow an unsafe industry to rape the entire state?

 

I find that to be a scenario beyond belief.

 

It seems by your anger concerning banning Fracking you must have lost a lot of money with the ban in place. I also find it crazy to think the oil and gas companies should police themselves. Pennsylvania is now looking at regulating. the gas industry, only took them 8 years. Day late and dollar short. But I thank Pennsylvania for letting the gas industry regulate themselves and by doing so gave NY the information to ban fracking.

 

[Dave]

Every landowner in a gas area of PA was paid $2000 to $3000 an acre for permission to drill beneath their land.  I would assume they spend that money locally.

 

Large farm owners have been paid small fortunes, and have bought new equipment, new cars, built new farm buildings, done home repairs and have even hired new hands to work their land as well.

 

People who have well heads on their land get a monthly royalty check for the gas extracted from the well, to the tune of many thousands a month, and they have not moved out of the area, but many have bought new homes and other luxury items they would not have otherwise bought to stimulate their local economy.

 

These people also shop and patronize all sorts of local businesses, as do the transient workers who live in the area for years while they are working on the wells.

 

All of this boosts the local economy.

 

NY is not going to see any of this economic boost in the future.

What a bunch of BULL. I guess you haven't been keeping up on what is happening in Pennsylvania which you like to compare us to.

Chesapeake Energy has been low balling royaly checks. People who were getting thousands of dollars are now only getting a fraction of that amount. It always looks like a good deal till it isn't. What aboit all the hunting clubs that have leased their land, what do you think they are doing with the money? Most live out of the area and spend their money where they live. What does that create for the area zero.

[Mr VJP]

It seems by your anger concerning banning Fracking you must have lost a lot of money with the ban in place. I also find it crazy to think the oil and gas companies should police themselves. Pennsylvania is now looking at regulating. the gas industry, only took them 8 years. Day late and dollar short. But I thank Pennsylvania for letting the gas industry regulate themselves and by doing so gave NY the information to ban fracking.

 

 

Anger?  My only frustration is seeing the local towns in upstate NY dying a slow death because Cuomo doesn't have a plan B.

 

My land in NY isn't even in an area fracking would ever be done.

[Mr VJP]

What a bunch of BULL. I guess you haven't been keeping up on what is happening in Pennsylvania which you like to compare us to.

Chesapeake Energy has been low balling royaly checks. People who were getting thousands of dollars are now only getting a fraction of that amount. It always looks like a good deal till it isn't. What aboit all the hunting clubs that have leased their land, what do you think they are doing with the money? Most live out of the area and spend their money where they live. What does that create for the area zero.

 

Bull?  In case you haven't noticed the price of gas is way down.  You expect to get paid the same amount when the price has dropped?  That's no low balling, that's economics.  Still the money being paid today is still better than nothing.

 

You can assume hunting clubs even get any money for their leases, but it's the land owner who gets the money, and most still live in PA when they lease their land to a hunting club.

 

If the club owns the land, I'd bet money, because it goes to the club, not individual members, they might spend it on a new club house, or even buy more land to hunt.  but I'm sure you know better, because you sure sound positive you're right.

[Mr VJP]

Who really cares about any of this anyway?  NY has taken it off the table.  A ban helps nobody.  It's like banning AR's in NY, does it make you feel better?

 

A fracking ban IMHO is also a feel good law that helps nobody.

 

Your opinion may be different.  But it doesn't matter, because fracking has been banned!

 

So folks, what's plan B for the upstate NY economy?  Or doesn't anybody give a crap about anyone else in the state?

 

Edited May 18, 2015 by Mr VJP

[Curmudgeon]

Every landowner in a gas area of PA was paid $2000 to $3000 an acre for permission to drill beneath their land.  I would assume they spend that money locally.

 

 

Assume is right! Actually, a lot of people moved out after being paid the big bucks back in 06-07 when gas prices were high. One moved here to my town in Otsego County. He then ranted and raved when he found he couldn't pull the same stunt here. 

 

While this was touted as a way to keep farms alive, a lot of farmers saw it as a way to retire.

 

 

Who really cares about any of this anyway?

 

Said the OP.

[jjb4900]

some of these little dying towns are the type you miss if you blink while driving through..............I doubt they offer enough local business to really turn things around for the residents, my guess is the larger portion of the money generated is being put into the bank accounts of the big landowners and gas companies.......maybe if it was allowed, and being done right next to the big Towns/Cities that are crapping out you would see a turn around, but the tiny Town's? I don't see it............and that would go for any type of business that would be touted as a lifesaver for these little Towns, not just Fracking.

Edited May 18, 2015 by jjb4900

[EspressoBuzz]

Ahhhhhh you VJP are a pro corporation anti government hack. YOU are the problem here and in the rest of the country. It is the VJP's of the world who not only don't believe government can help you actively subvert government while holding the corporation up as the solution. How anyone can say with a straight face that the "industry" self regulates fine. You cherry pick history to make you points, turn a blind eye towards abuses by your beloved industry and capitalism and when confronted with the truth retire to the tried and true it'll ruin our economy, oh what is plan B? and other BS arguments. You never once speak about how we need to take back our government from the corporations instead choosing to "drown it in the bathwater".

I doubt you read anything that does not support your narrow view of our supposedly dystopian society or for that matter anything hopeful or uplifting. Adam Smith who I am sure you'll brand a communist wrote in the Wealth Of Nations that the concentration of money is a treat to useful and productive capitalism. This is the same situation we have today. Eisenhower warned us about the Military Industrial Complex the very same situation we are in today.

I have no doubt that none of these posts you have ever made could change your mind as you hope to change other minds, and I don't believe you give a rat ass about the NYS economy.

 

Edited May 18, 2015 by EspressoBuzz

[wildcat junkie]

Absolutely not! The industry has put it's own oversight in place that is actually effective. They know what works and what does not.

And with that statement you lost what little credibility he had left.

Even you know that is the most ludicrous, bald faced lie ever perpetuated on the American populous. If you don't, you're so delusional that the men in white suits should soon be putting you in a straight jacket.

I'm beginning to see why conserve-a-turds worship Reagan so. If the old BS Artist in chief hadn't shut down the state run mental institutions, these lunatics would locked away where they wouldn't be able to spew their inane BS.

[Mr VJP]

All I can say is you guys support the system we have now and it sucks!  When you realize it, maybe you'll come to your senses. I'm sure it will be way too late at that point though.

 

American's get the government they deserve, and in my 60 years of experience observing government and politics, I can say without hesitation, NY State deserves the type of government it has, which seems to make you guys real happy.

 

It won't get any better, because you guys accept it and it knows you blindly support it's plans.

[Doc]

All I can say is you guys support the system we have now and it sucks!  When you realize it, maybe you'll come to your senses. I'm sure it will be way too late at that point though.

 

American's get the government they deserve, and in my 60 years of experience observing government and politics, I can say without hesitation, NY State deserves the type of government it has, which seems to make you guys real happy.

 

It won't get any better, because you guys accept it and it knows you blindly support it's plans.

I'm curious what system you would replace ours with, and exactly what have you done to make that happen besides scampering away like a frightened rabbit and fleeing the state. I'm not trying to be too critical, but it seems to me that if you have so much to say about how others face up to the problems of NYS governance, you must have some pretty good ideas on exactly what to do to straighten up the system, and a pretty impressive list of things that you have already done. And I do not consider running away from problems to be one of those things.

[Dave]

By on January 20, 2015. Time posted: 9:33 amUncategorized

Voters were pleased Gov. Andrew Cuomo has decided to ban hydraulic fracturing, a poll today found.

Voters, even in upstate, supported the fracking ban Cuomo’s aides said they would adopt Dec. 17. The ban ended six years of deliberations by state officials on whether to process with the controversial drilling technique.

By a 57 percent to 23 percent margin said they supported the fracking ban. Even in upstate, where fracking would have occurred, particularly in the Southern Tier, voters supported the ban 57 percent to 33 percent, the Siena College poll found.

The poll didn’t break out regions of upstate.

“Between 55 and 61 percent of voters from every region of the state support the ban,” Siena pollster Steve Greenberg said in a statement. “While about one-third of upstaters oppose the decision to ban fracking, about half that number of downstaters oppose the ban. Two-thirds of Democrats support the ban, as do a strong majority of independents and a plurality of Republicans.”

[Curmudgeon]

I'm curious what system you would replace ours with, and exactly what have you done to make that happen besides scampering away like a frightened rabbit and fleeing the state. I'm not trying to be too critical, but it seems to me that if you have so much to say about how others face up to the problems of NYS governance, you must have some pretty good ideas on exactly what to do to straighten up the system, and a pretty impressive list of things that you have already done. And I do not consider running away from problems to be one of those things.

 

Wow Doc - Great post. One of your best.

 

Some us buckled down, sacrificed and put ourselves at risk with our neighbors to protect our homes and towns from the depredations of the oil and gas industry. VJP's history is to flee. First from NJ, then NY. As we say about the sheep, they are "Flighty".

 

If he likes bad air so much, he should return to his roots. Back to NJ.

 

Edited May 19, 2015 by Curmudgeon

[Dave]

All I can say is you guys support the system we have now and it sucks!  When you realize it, maybe you'll come to your senses. I'm sure it will be way too late at that point though.

 

American's get the government they deserve, and in my 60 years of experience observing government and politics, I can say without hesitation, NY State deserves the type of government it has, which seems to make you guys real happy.

 

It won't get any better, because you guys accept it and it knows you blindly support it's plans.

 

If we accept and support everthing blindly we would have had fracking. Its that we didn't support it and the people fought for change.

We fought for the environment against the interest of the Oil and Gas Industry. Who were dangeling carrots in hopes we would let them destroy our land and environment for money.  That is a moral and ethical victory we should be proud of, I am.

 

[Mr VJP]

You guys can pat yourself's on the back until your dead.  But the fact remains, you live under an oppressive government regime that dictates almost every facet of your life, and you tolerate it, if not love it.

 

NY has a love of the "ban" wagon.  Anything the state dictates is bad is banned.  It hates your firearms, all conservative opinions, fracking, private business, corporations, etc.  But it loves regulations, bans and just about any Leftist insanity right up to, and including deviant lifestyles and raising taxes to pay for the massive expenses it creates for you.

 

I applaud anyone who actively resists such tyranny.  Unfortunately doing so within the borders of NY is stupid.  It leaves you vulnerable to subversive attacks and oppression by the regime you criticize in hopes of reforming.

 

There is a reason a lot of folks are escaping NY.  They do not agree with it's politics and have lost any hope of reforming it, because the majority of it's "idiot electorate" resists reform and are actively pushing it further and further left.

 

The future of NY was the topic of this thread.  It was not meant to be a debate on fracking.  The future for the state is bleak.  The best course of action for any thinking individual is to make a statement to NY that you will not comply, will not subsidize tyranny and oppression, economic or otherwise, with payroll and property taxes, and will not be a willing subject under any form of government that is seriously corrupt, destroys freedom and creates problems, rather than solves them.

 

Since few of you seem to think your taxes are too high, or are being wasted, you'll be happy to know, as the affluent leave the state in droves, because many NY residents have swallowed the divisive class warfare propaganda that the rich are evil and need to be fleeced, your taxes will skyrocket.  Someone has to pay the debt when the people who pay the largest portion of the bill are no longer around to do so.

 

You guys can post whatever vile crap you like about me, but I'm not the problem, nor the one who needs to worry.  NY has no control over me.  All I can do is try to point out some of the things NY citizens don't seem to grasp, in the hopes of waking a few up.  It's a thankless job, but a job somebody should be doing.  A few in the state do, but they are talking to the deaf as well.

 

I have no sympathy for anyone who's misery is self inflicted, but not all NY residents fall into that category.  If you think I don't care about them, you're wrong.  I wouldn't be doing what I do if I didn't.  I just don't care about those of you that enhance the problem.

 

Laugh it up now.  Your experiencing your last few years of laughter, no matter how much you ignore the signs.