308 Hand Load for Elk.

[ckbailey97]

OK Guys.  I already hit up Pygmy on this one, and we're looking at the following. 

 

Currently I am using Federal Fusion box ammo. 165 grains. Shoots very well.  Sub 1.5" at 200 yards, out of a Thompson Encore with a Light Bull (0.750 at muzzle) Bullberry Stainless barrel. 22 inches. But - that's not a bullet I would use for Elk. It's not going to do well up against bone if it needs to.  

 

Pygmy and I talked back and forth and settled on either a TTSX or a Partition Bullet. I am back and forth on which one. I have read of some of the TTSX not opening up well, but that seems to be in smaller calibers. I have heard alot of good about the partitions, and would probably feel more comfortable making the full switch to those for whitetails also, instead of having an Elk load and a Deer load.  I wouldn't feel comfortable shooting the TTSX on whitetails, even if it's got great reviews. Even on full expansion I don't think it's going to do the same damage as the partition would, and I have followed dead deer with sparse blood trails because of small exit wounds. Yes, they were dead on their feet, but I like to have a trail to follow. All shots are not in open fields where you see the deer run off for a bit, and have an idea where to start looking. 

 

Powder - We're thinking IMR 4064 or Reloader 15, and from what I have read, either are superb. 

 

So - newbie question.  

 

Brass - how important is it? I have plenty of once shot Federals out of my gun, but considered buying Lapua's. 

Primers - I used to think all were the same (or wouldn't affect ballistics or results), but it seems that this may be incorrect also. 

MV - I never thought it was that important - within reason - or I would be shooting a faster caliber. BUT - it appears that some bullets need a minimum to open (TTSX). 

 

 

I would love to have some thoughts, or anyone else to chime in.   Once again - thanks Pygmy for your recommendations.  I am getting ready to buy my fixin's and want to make sure that I am at least starting with the right ingredients. 

 

OH - or - do I try box ammo - like Barnes Vor-TX or Federal Premiums - etc. 

Edited December 4, 2015 by ckbailey97

[chas0218]

So - newbie question.  

 

Brass - how important is it? I have plenty of once shot Federals out of my gun, but considered buying Lapua's. 

Primers - I used to think all were the same (or wouldn't affect ballistics or results), but it seems that this may be incorrect also. 

MV - I never thought it was that important - within reason - or I would be shooting a faster caliber. BUT - it appears that some bullets need a minimum to open (TTSX). 

 

 

I would love to have some thoughts, or anyone else to chime in.   Once again - thanks Pygmy for your recommendations.  I am getting ready to buy my fixin's and want to make sure that I am at least starting with the right ingredients. 

 

OH - or - do I try box ammo - like Barnes Vor-TX or Federal Premiums - etc. 

Brass- Once fired will be fine, just after a FL re-size inspect for stress cracks using a bright light. If you can use a tumbler/vibratory polisher to clean the brass prior to extracting the spent primer (leave primer in so new primers will fit snug and won't need to clean pocket out . It will make seeing those stress cracks much easier.

 

Primers- I only use CCI primers I have had 1 failure to fire (no pop) and it was user error, when I was reloading the primer had the star shaped brass piece fall out and I didn't realize it. So no powder to make it go pop.

 

Muzzle Velocity- It doesn't really play a big role other than the trajectory will be flatter. You are shooting a .308 and planning on going after larger game so I wouldn't be too concerned about it. If you are concerned just look for bullets with high ballistic coefficients.

 

I would look at nosler hunting bullets (ballistic tip spitzer boattail). They are a great bullet and I personally had them shoot better out of my tikka .270 than hornady sst.

 

I also had factory loaded cor-lokts shoot just as well even tho there have been some discrepancies posted lately.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2015 by chas0218

[BizCT]

I know nothing about 308's. But when you going elk hunting and where? Good luck!

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[ckbailey97]

Heading for Elk First Rifle next year.  Colorado.  NE of Dolores. Property we've hunted before.  860 acres with 2 sides against National Forest. 

[shawnhu]

OK Guys. I already hit up Pygmy on this one, and we're looking at the following.

Currently I am using Federal Fusion box ammo. 165 grains. Shoots very well. Sub 1.5" at 200 yards, out of a Thompson Encore with a Light Bull (0.750 at muzzle) Bullberry Stainless barrel. 22 inches. But - that's not a bullet I would use for Elk. It's not going to do well up against bone if it needs to.

Pygmy and I talked back and forth and settled on either a TTSX or a Partition Bullet. I am back and forth on which one. I have read of some of the TTSX not opening up well, but that seems to be in smaller calibers. I have heard alot of good about the partitions, and would probably feel more comfortable making the full switch to those for whitetails also, instead of having an Elk load and a Deer load. I wouldn't feel comfortable shooting the TTSX on whitetails, even if it's got great reviews. Even on full expansion I don't think it's going to do the same damage as the partition would, and I have followed dead deer with sparse blood trails because of small exit wounds. Yes, they were dead on their feet, but I like to have a trail to follow. All shots are not in open fields where you see the deer run off for a bit, and have an idea where to start looking.

Powder - We're thinking IMR 4064 or Reloader 15, and from what I have read, either are superb.

So - newbie question.

Brass - how important is it? I have plenty of once shot Federals out of my gun, but considered buying Lapua's.

Primers - I used to think all were the same (or wouldn't affect ballistics or results), but it seems that this may be incorrect also.

MV - I never thought it was that important - within reason - or I would be shooting a faster caliber. BUT - it appears that some bullets need a minimum to open (TTSX).

I would love to have some thoughts, or anyone else to chime in. Once again - thanks Pygmy for your recommendations. I am getting ready to buy my fixin's and want to make sure that I am at least starting with the right ingredients.

OH - or - do I try box ammo - like Barnes Vor-TX or Federal Premiums - etc.

I'm relatively new to reloading, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

I also have no experience in elk hunting, so take that with a grain of salt as well.

What I do know is that you'll want a bullet that will hold together more on elk, than on whitetail. In that sense, a partition like Pygmy recommended for elk, and an expanding bullet on whitetail. The goal is to expend as much energy IN the animal as possible, and still leaving a nice sized exit hole for a trail. I believe partitioned bullets won't give you maximum energy expenditure on whitetail. There's better bullets for that.

Accuracy - if you are satisfied with the accuracy of the fusion rounds, you can chrono the fusions and then use a smiliar weight bullet and work up a load to similar MV and accuracy should be similar.

Powder - pick the powder based on the weight of the bullet. Heavier the bullet, slower the powder generally. And if hunting in extreme temps, use an extruded powder that is more stable in extreme temps.

Brass, primers - having the same brand, same lot of brass is a good start to having an accurate load. Otherwise, you can weigh each case and sort them that way by brand. I wouldn't mix brands unless I had to. Pick up a box of your favorite primer based on the bullet and powder you'll be using, sometimes the load may require magnum primers for a non-mag cartridge. But keep it consistent. When you change primers, you'll need to work up the load again.

MV - muzzle velocity and ballistic coefficient is important in how the bullet ultimately performs at terminal. MV and mass of the bullet will determine the momentum the bullet has and it's KE out of the muzzle. The BC and distance will determine the terminal energy and expansion. Each bullet type will have different expansion characteristics at different terminal velocities. Nosler is very good at demonstrating different expansion at different velocities.

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[BizCT]

Heading for Elk First Rifle next year. Colorado. NE of Dolores. Property we've hunted before. 860 acres with 2 sides against National Forest.

Nice good luck! Beautiful country. I go to CO every other year since my uncle lives in Boulder. I have been buying elk PPs in WY for a few years now.

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[Pygmy]

There are some common misconceptions about some of the premium bullets..

Nosler partitions are actually a very fast expanding bullet. The front expands quickly and they tend to shed all of the lead in the nose. However, the rear section stays intact and keeps penetrating, usually retaining about 60% of the bullet weight..Entrance holes from partitions are usually bigger than exits..I have a 160 grain 7mm partition at hand that penetrated about 2 feet of Alaska bull moose and still weighs 105 grains.

Barnes X type bullets expand well, but don't cause the violent tissue disruption of some lead bullets. They do raise merry hell along their path, however, retaining nearly 100% of their weight and nearly always exiting, leaving about a 2" exit hole which results in a blood trail that Stevie Wonder could follow.

I've shot perhaps 20 game animals now with Barnes bullets, one moose, one caribou and the rest deer, and they kill as well and as quickly as the Nosler Ballistic tips that I used for years prior.

As far as I am concerned there is NO down side to using barnes bullets on any size game animals, as long as they group well in your rifle. They are not cheap, but neither are other premium bullets made by Nosler, Swift, Woodleigh, and other manufacturers.

[ATbuckhunter]

There are some common misconceptions about some of the premium bullets..

Nosler partitions are actually a very fast expanding bullet. The front expands quickly and they tend to shed all of the lead in the nose. However, the rear section stays intact and keeps penetrating, usually retaining about 60% of the bullet weight..Entrance holes from partitions are usually bigger than exits..I have a 160 grain 7mm partition at hand that penetrated about 2 feet of Alaska bull moose and still weighs 105 grains.

Barnes X type bullets expand well, but don't cause the violent tissue disruption of some lead bullets. They do raise merry hell along their path, however, retaining nearly 100% of their weight and nearly always exiting, leaving about a 2" exit hole which results in a blood trail that Stevie Wonder could follow.

I've shot perhaps 20 game animals now with Barnes bullets, one moose, one caribou and the rest deer, and they kill as well and as quickly as the Nosler Ballistic tips that I used for years prior.

As far as I am concerned there is NO down side to using barnes bullets on any size game animals, as long as they group well in your rifle. They are not cheap, but neither are other premium bullets made by Nosler, Swift, Woodleigh, and other manufacturers.

Im with pygmy on this one! I see no downside to a bullet that penetrates like no other and leaves a nice blood trail...I've never had a deer go very far with one of these in the boiler room. Id think the combination of a nice exit hole, some serious penetration and damage. If only I reloaded, I could make the perfect rig. 

[Jeremy K]

It can't be store bought ? I was going to ask if you had tried out the winchester silver tips. Try some premium lines until you find one you love .

Edited December 6, 2015 by Jeremy K

[shawnhu]

It can't be store bought ? I was going to ask if you had tried out the winchester silver tips. Try some premium lines until you find one you love .

I did that and ended up spending hundreds on ammo and wished I started out reloading instead.

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[Pygmy]

It can't be store bought ? I was going to ask if you had tried out the winchester silver tips. Try some premium lines until you find one you love .

There are factory loads available loaded with Barnes X type bullets..Barnes Vor-tex comes to mind, but I believe there are others..I'm no authority on factory loads. The only factory loaded centerfire rifle ammo I have bought in the last 30 years was a box of Corelocks that I purchased to break in the barrel of my 7mm08 Mountain Rifle when it was new..

[Lawdwaz]

I'm very impressed with the Lapua brass;  I use their brass for my .223ai, .243, 260 and 7MM-08 (necked down .306 in that one)  The stuff really is nice to work with, IMO.

 

RL-15 is a favorite of mine, just bought another pound Friday night..........for use in the 7mm-08 and 260 but can be used all over the place if need be.

 

As I've stated before, Barnes TTSX is my favorite bullet and starting with the early X bullets then the TSX it's about all I've used in CF rifles for 20+ years.  Saying that, the gun I've been carrying for deer in CF counties this year has been stoked with Nosler (hunting) BT bullets.  I got a great price on them and a fellow that I have a ton of respect for, Steve Timm, has written thousands and thousands of words of praise for them and used them extensively on hundreds of game animals.  That gun I'm carrying is my 7mm-08 with 120gr NBT's.  I think I killed a deer a few years ago with them but don't recall.

 

I did use a 180gr Nosler Partition for my elk hunt 11 years ago but I wouldn't today.........that gun is chambered in 300WSM.  Now, hands down, the bulet would be a 165gr TTSX.  No question about it........

 

Lots of great choices these days and take Pygmy's advice to the bank. (or butcher shop)

 

 

[Buckmaster7600]

I shoot the ttsx in my 30-06

With a 17 inch barrel they expand,penetrate and leave big exits. With my short barrel you will have a higher mc than I do and should have no problem at all with expansion.

[d-bone20917]

Take a look at the Accubonds too.  I'm sure the Partition would do the job very well also. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

Just a semi-off topic question, but why dont you think the Fusions would work well for elk? I run the 150s in my 308 and they are simply devastating to whitetails. I have never had one not exit, and Im not a rib cage shooter the majority of the time. I have seen what they do to a big doe blasted through both shoulders, and I dont think Id hesitate to take a double lung or single shoulder/lung shot on an elk with them. I could be way off base though. Im asking because I may be heading out to CO for elk this coming year as well, and if I need to rethink my bullet choice, I will.

[Pygmy]

No doubt a fusion would do a fine job with any good broadside shot on an elk..Shoot 'em in the lungs and they die just like anything else.

 

However, you may not be fortunate enough to get a nice broadside shot at a standing elk.  Elk are much bigger than deer and they are just flat out tougher to kill, unless hit perfectly. What if the only shot you get at a bull is quartering away ?

You might have to drive a bullet through a lot of tissue to reach the vitals.

 

It makes sense to me to use a more heavily constructed bullet that will smash heavy bones and penetrate far enough to reach the vitals on a ranging shot or other less than perfect shot angle.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Gotcha. Thanks for the explanation. I dont have any experience with elk yet, so Ill be watching this thread to see what is decided upon, then Ill just play copy cat lol.

[ckbailey97]

I shot my buck this year (profile pic) with a 165 grain fusion, quartering too hard. Bullet went in top of left shoulder and on the opposite side crushed right elbow, and did not exit. Deer was dead before he hit the ground. There was no bleeding in between layers of muscle. Heart stopped immediately.  BUT - the bullet did not exit. It did however do exactly what I wanted it to. I remember reading an old Chuck Hawks post that said what good is having a premium bullet with all kinds of energy just end up transferring all that energy to the dirt on the opposite side of the animal after exiting. I'm with Pygmy - not taking that chance with big bone though. I would worry about that same shot I took on that deer on an Elk.

 

Looks like 150 grain TTSX is honestly the way I would go if reloading my own, from my studies, and what Pygmy told me. There are 4 companies that I have found that load TTSX.  Barnes Vor-TX ($40), Buffalo Bore Supercharged ($47.50), Doubletap ($55.99), ASYM Precision ($40).

 

Asym uses Lapua Brass - but uses 168's (2680fps) - they claim match grade accuracy with their loading. 

Barnes Vor-TX 150gr are 2820 fps with "Barnes?" brass. 

 

Double Tap and Buffalo Bore claim 2920 and 2900 fps with 150gr. 

 

at Brownells:

 

Lapua Brass - $70 for 100

TTSX - 150gr - $35 for 50

IMR 4064 - $25

 

So - you're looking at about $1.50 per bullet reloading yourself.   OR - for either the ASYM or BARNES $2 per shell.  

 

I am hedging on buying the Vor-TX and trying them out before buying the ingredients to build my own. I personally am not punching paper competitively, so if I get similar groupings to my Fusions, I probably won't build my own. I saw in my searches on one post where a guy was trying to replicate the load for Barnes Vor-TX himself. Trying to figure out what powder was being used because it worked so well in his gun and he wanted to build the same load. 

 

Additionally - I read another post about the TTSX in addition to Pygmy's swearing by them.  Obviously, in California where you can't use lead, they're using these or something like them, so they work. In addition, in this post the guys said, the 130 acts like a 169 grain lead core, and the 150 grain acts like a 195 grain lead core (30%). I believe Pygmy said it's at least a 20% "upweight" comparison. That makes 168 grains like a 218 grain!!!  That should hit like a house!! 

 

I'll let you know what direction I take, and what results I see. Might have to get some before season ends and try them out on a doe.  

[Dinsdale]

Good thread here so far.

 

FWIW.....

 

Try some of the 165 gr's also and see if those are as accurate or better than 150's.

 

Have taken close to 2 dozen critters in the 400-700 lb class; and bigger is better IMO.(Chambering would include; 270win,30-06,300RUM,375HH) A big fan of stiff contruction bullets and have had good results including shots from multiple angles. I get very few recoveries, I happen to like Swift Aframes and Trophy Bonded Bearclaws; but I did some volume culling on some smaller animals with a 243 and TSX's and they had excellent results. Loaded the 180grTSX in my 300 WBY and with now one animal down, I hope to use it for several hunts in the future; impressive stuff. I want 2 holes and be able to reach vitals from any position; and I want to break bones, preferably the offside leg if possible.

 

 

Back to your first posts. I have two rifles I have 2 loads for (270win and 30-06), another with three ( 375 has a 300gr soft and 300gr solid to same point of impact and a Partition in 260gr with a second scope) . No big deal to work up 2 different loads if you want something softer for whitetails (and cheaper to plink with for chucks and targets). If grouping well, doesn't take more than 5 shots (or less) to get a scope zeroed, I use QD mounts and sometimes leave a second scope zeroed for another load. That extra scope always gets packed when travelling so with a few shots I could be back in business if required in case of a bad drop or accident to primary optic.

 

 

Good luck on the hunt!

 

 

 

Edit to add......Plenty of Elk have dropped to smaller calibers and the Partitions in all chamberings, good bullet. Most of the hunting I do involves a day rate and trophy fee; once that bullet leaves the muzzle, you own it. Positive blood trails, broken bones, and being able to possibly follow up very quickly make things just a little more stress free.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Dinsdale

[ckbailey97]

Dinsdale, 

 

With respect to the .243, I just bought my son a T/C Encore in .243 and was considering upgrading to a Bullberry barrel in a larger caliber before next year.  My concern being off angle shots on whitetails or large bears (see below- taken Friday night behind my house).  Any thoughts on the .243 for being a good finisher on a job like that? Yes, I know people use them successfully on Elk, I also have a buddy in Texas who manages his herd with a .22mag. It doesn't mean it's the most eithical and best method of doing it. 

 

I'll order up 150's and 168's and see what things look like. 

 

Thanks for the info. 

 

[chas0218]

Here is a photo of my .270 bullet after shooting my buck in the neck at 160 yards hit the spine. It was poking out of the neck but not thru the hid. This was a Nosler 130 Grain hunting bullet with a hot re-load MV is around 3500 fps. 

 

 

This photo is from last year high shoulder at 75 yards, first 1/4 of the bullet fragmented but the jacket stayed together and was once again same load with same bullet.

 

[WNYBuckHunter]

I shot my buck this year (profile pic) with a 165 grain fusion, quartering too hard. Bullet went in top of left shoulder and on the opposite side crushed right elbow, and did not exit. Deer was dead before he hit the ground. There was no bleeding in between layers of muscle. Heart stopped immediately.  BUT - the bullet did not exit. It did however do exactly what I wanted it to. I remember reading an old Chuck Hawks post that said what good is having a premium bullet with all kinds of energy just end up transferring all that energy to the dirt on the opposite side of the animal after exiting. I'm with Pygmy - not taking that chance with big bone though. I would worry about that same shot I took on that deer on an Elk.

 

Looks like 150 grain TTSX is honestly the way I would go if reloading my own, from my studies, and what Pygmy told me. There are 4 companies that I have found that load TTSX.  Barnes Vor-TX ($40), Buffalo Bore Supercharged ($47.50), Doubletap ($55.99), ASYM Precision ($40).

 

Asym uses Lapua Brass - but uses 168's (2680fps) - they claim match grade accuracy with their loading. 

Barnes Vor-TX 150gr are 2820 fps with "Barnes?" brass. 

 

Double Tap and Buffalo Bore claim 2920 and 2900 fps with 150gr. 

 

at Brownells:

 

Lapua Brass - $70 for 100

TTSX - 150gr - $35 for 50

IMR 4064 - $25

 

So - you're looking at about $1.50 per bullet reloading yourself.   OR - for either the ASYM or BARNES $2 per shell.  

 

I am hedging on buying the Vor-TX and trying them out before buying the ingredients to build my own. I personally am not punching paper competitively, so if I get similar groupings to my Fusions, I probably won't build my own. I saw in my searches on one post where a guy was trying to replicate the load for Barnes Vor-TX himself. Trying to figure out what powder was being used because it worked so well in his gun and he wanted to build the same load. 

 

Additionally - I read another post about the TTSX in addition to Pygmy's swearing by them.  Obviously, in California where you can't use lead, they're using these or something like them, so they work. In addition, in this post the guys said, the 130 acts like a 169 grain lead core, and the 150 grain acts like a 195 grain lead core (30%). I believe Pygmy said it's at least a 20% "upweight" comparison. That makes 168 grains like a 218 grain!!!  That should hit like a house!! 

 

I'll let you know what direction I take, and what results I see. Might have to get some before season ends and try them out on a doe.  

 

What is the twist rate for your barrel?

[chas0218]

I have shot the barnes and never had good luck with them. No matter what I used grain I could never get a good group out of them. I strive for the tightest group would a 1" group suffice yes but I am a little anal and try for that clover leaf in all my guns.

[Pygmy]

Holy crap, Chas !!   3500 FPS for a 130  in the .270 Win would be REALLY hot !!

 

Typical  muzzle velocities for that bullet in the .270 Win are around 3100....

 

You sure your chrony is telling you the truth ? If that velocity is correct I would worry about the safety of my load.

 

Early production Barnes bullets  had some issues..Many rifles would not group them well and excessive copper fouling was a problem..

 

Barnes addressed the problems, and modern TSX and TTSX  Group as well or better in my rifles as any other bullets and  copper fouling has been reduced .. They are a great hunting bullet.

[chas0218]

Holy crap, Chas !!   3500 FPS for a 130  in the .270 Win would be REALLY hot !!

 

Typical  muzzle velocities for that bullet in the .270 Win are around 3100....

 

You sure your chrony is telling you the truth ? If that velocity is correct I would worry about the safety of my load.

 

Early production Barnes bullets  had some issues..Many rifles would not group them well and excessive copper fouling was a problem..

 

Barnes addressed the problems, and modern TSX and TTSX  Group as well or better in my rifles as any other bullets and  copper fouling has been reduced .. They are a great hunting bullet.

I guess it could be off a little I never had any issues with the bolt locking up or any signs of too much chamber pressure. My buddy has a 7mm rem mag that also reloads and couldn't believe the numbers either (his chrono and was cheap). I could tame it down a bit and my brass would last a little longer. I can only usually get 2 or 3 reloads before the the neck cracks. I am using the Hornady Superformance powder with Mag primers. I don't know the exact powder amount I think it is around 49gr. Its a slower burning powder but that might be the reason why I don't show signs of too much chamber pressure.

 

I think I tried the TTSX were better than the factory TSX but they still didn't meet my expectations. Every rifle is different and will like different bullets, powders, cartridge lengths, ect. When I first got my rifle I bought some remington cor-lokts factory ammo (cheap and have shot them in every other rifle) and they shot beautifully but they were very dirty and the MV wasn't very good after 150 yards they dropped like lead balloons.