DEC Announces Proposed Rule Changes to Allow Big Bore Air Rifles for Big Game Hunting

[DirtTime]

FPS will be 650, and current age restriction for any airgun is 18 I believe.

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I think that's correct, I also think that in NY it's illegal for anyone under 16 to posess any air gun. I may be wrong. So the FPS for small game is 600FPS, and for big game it will only be 650FPS? I don't know about that........

We all know DEC has it's own agendas ( we also know most of them are on a more Government associated scale then we like ), and this is starting to sound like another one.

 

 

That still doesn't answer how the sale of air guns will go now. Will they stay the same, or will they have to have a check through NICS now or in the near future? We all know how our Governor works. Not trying to make this political, just looking down the road on the repercussions of this addition.

[shawnhu]

I think that's correct, I also think that in NY it's illegal for anyone under 16 to posess any air gun. I may be wrong. So the FPS for small game is 600FPS, and for big game it will only be 650FPS? I don't know about that........

We all know DEC has it's own agendas ( we also know most of them are on a more Government associated scale then we like ), and this is starting to sound like another one.

That still doesn't answer how the sale of air guns will go now. Will they stay the same, or will they have to have a check through NICS now or in the near future? We all know how our Governor works. Not trying to make this political, just looking down the road on the repercussions of this addition.

I think if there will be a check, it'll be up to each state. I believe some states don't allow the sale of Airguns at all. We'll see if NY will amend their regs regarding the purchase Airguns in the future.

I don't believe there is a possession law regarding Airguns in NYS, as many young children are allowed to engage in the sport of paintball at the young age of 12 or so. There's also air soft as well, and would fall under the category of Airguns. I don't know this as fact, nor have I ever had to look it up.

Regarding the FPS regulation, it's not really a good system to measure or judge the effectiveness of an airgun for hunting. Ideally, each caliber should be tested for penetration with standard pellets/slugs of similar sectional density and then a list of minimum KE based on those findings. I imagine that one day, it will come to this, or possibly one day Airguns will be over-regulated, just like most things gun-related these days.

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[Doc]

Doc, no one is trying to convince you of anything. You were the one that kept asking for answers, and I was inclined to explain it to you in a way you might comprehend. Glad you finally got the answers you seek. If you think shooting an airgun doesn't require any experience to make, you are sadly mistaken, but you already admitted to not having fired one, so I wouldn't expect you to know what's involved.

I wouldn't call an airgun having poor ballistic performance, but again, it's relative. Will an arrow tipped with a broad head allow for a larger kill zone? Yes. Does that make the bow a "better" weapon? You'll have to decide for yourself. Like you said, each implement is different in its our rights. I'm glad you finally see the point.

As far as bullets go and penetrating the hide, all you need is the right mix of momentum and sectional density to penetrate. The real killing power of a traditional powder propelled bullet is from bullet construction and KE as well as sectional density. The massive KE that most powder burners propel bullets at allows for rapid expansion of most bullets, thus increasing its diameter, while lowering its sectional density in the cavity of the animal. This increase is what causes hydrostatic shock, which is the main killing force of a powder burner bullet. Such is not true for Airguns. It's hemorrhaging by wound channel, just like a broad head. Not a comparison, but it's the closest I'll get to explaining how Airguns kill, without using an example from an illegal hunting implement.

While you're comparing traditional bows to Airguns, have you seen the video of the archer that shoots multiple arrows at multiple targets, while flying through the air? I don't know a single big bore airgunner that can do that. It really goes to show how different you can split each implement allowed for hunting in NYS. We can probably go on forever on how different or similar each implement is, but it doesn't really mean anything, as I've said, it's not about you or I as individuals. It's about opportunity for others. I just happen to be also an airgunner.

Happy Holidays!

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I was hoping that this discussion would answer the question as to whether I should be for them or against them as a deer hunting weapon, not some kind of bogus comparison between air rifles and bows. So far the real subject of performance as a deer hunting weapon has been left out of the discussion. Real numbers regarding terminal energies at various distances, realistic trajectories at longer distances, or even empirical data of actual use on big game at various distances. What I have learned from this discussion still leaves me wondering if we are trying to kill deer with a pellet gun or some super efficient gun that has the killing power of conventional deer rifles. I know that when it comes to firearms, a lot of print has been used on what calibers and what loads are really adequate to kill a deer. I would expect that same scrutiny and discussion to take place before anyone gets all fanatical about these air guns and offers or withholds support for these weapons to be used on big game.

 

All this peripheral drummed-up theory and comparisons to bows or whatever is really just diversion from the central question of, "Does the air rifle belong among the conventional calibers of firearms or not as a deer hunting weapon". Well that is still a question that apparently no one really wants to answer.

[growalot]

All I know are the ones I have seen on line ,set up for big game...That said...Don't these "big game " airguns carry some of the features that NYS has made illegal to have on rifles?

[growalot]

 

But why are they using a quietness factor for the whole proposal? That's what I say makes no sense.

 Oh

rob...I just can't pass up a chance to vocalize my thoughts on Reg. 8...LOL You set that up perfect thanks:

Considering Region 8's responses to night poaching and well poaching in general ,as I have seen and read posts here...It's not all that difficult to understand why a noise factor would be prevalent in this proposal, if they had input on this. They don't really care as long as  deer are killed and they don't have to field those pesky calls from people calling in poachers. No noise ,no calls...Now mind you down state seems to have a different mind set Those DEC officers actually set up sting operations that we have all read about...

OK there's my quota for the year..hahaha

Edited December 27, 2015 by growalot

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Airguns in Bow Season..Can see it now. Who would ever know on private land?  This will just make a crooks life much easier.  Wonder if the state will add a tag so they make some extra cash?

[ncountry]

Another choice of weapon to use hunting deer sounds great.. In a quick google trip, it seems that they are limited in their range, due to trajectory and adequate power to penetrate. Within their limited range(probably around archery ranges) why not? Sounds fun, if a person has the funds to buy one..Probably not a lot different than shooting a deer with many standard pistol cartridges.

   From my observations in the field the actual effectiveness of the weapon has very little to do with the number of wounded animal running around ,slowly dying , or already dead somewhere. I honestly believe that (at least where i hunt down state) there are as many ,if not more deer wounded then are ever tagged and brought home.. Very sad.. There aren't enough bears or coyotes in Letchworth  park to eat the dead deer laying around as gifts. But that is a totally different subject..

  

[ncountry]

Airguns in Bow Season..Can see it now. Who would ever know on private land?  This will just make a crooks life much easier.  Wonder if the state will add a tag so they make some extra cash?

 

I wouldn't mind them legal, but not during archery..lol

[Buckmaster7600]

My question still stands why would they allow air guns and not suppresors?

What are the projectiles that these shoot are they expanding or like a hard cast?

[shawnhu]

My question still stands why would they allow air guns and not suppresors?

What are the projectiles that these shoot are they expanding or like a hard cast?

There isn't enough energy produced by Airguns that can effectively expand pellets near the effectiveness as powder burners. Expansion is generally not a priority in pellet design.

Suppressors are not allowed by NYS law, and I believe that supersedes DEC laws. I don't believe NYS will see suppressors anytime soon.

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[Buckmaster7600]

There isn't enough energy produced by Airguns that can effectively expand pellets near the effectiveness as powder burners. Expansion is generally not a priority in pellet design.

Suppressors are not allowed by NYS law, and I believe that supersedes DEC laws. I don't believe NYS will see suppressors anytime soon.

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Other states legalized them for hunting.

To each's own but they certainly do nothing for me.

[shawnhu]

Other states legalized them for hunting.

To each's own but they certainly do nothing for me.

That's news to me, maybe DEC may have suppressors sooner than later, maybe. Suppressors isn't something that appeal to me aside from saving my hearing in later years.

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[Lawdwaz]

Other states legalized them for hunting.

To each's own but they certainly do nothing for me.

 

How much shooting have you done with a suppressor?

[EspressoBuzz]

Just another tool available to Hunters. I am surprised at the amount of negative responses. If it increases the number of responsible hunters then I fail to see much of anything negative about it. I air gun hunt often depending on weather and my mood. I sometimes carry my .22 caliber air pistol deer hunting with me because I've learned that when hunting squirrels you will see none but when hunting deer squirrels will give your location away. So with my air pistol I eliminate the #@%*$^% squirrel. (In N.Y.S to be legal for any small game the minimum muzzle velocity is 600 fps CO2 pistols do not reach this velocity.)

[DirtTime]

I am not trying to be negative. But the concerns this addition can bring up are valid. A violent felon can buy any air gun on the market. So, it would only make sense that at some point air guns would have to be registered. So a NICS check is most likely in the future for some if not all air guns. You can skirt the topic, but it's there. If I have to spend a grand without all the crap needed to use an air rifle for big game, then get a NICS check.....I will buy a new actual rifle or shotgun to use to kill a deer. Just my opinion and not meant as arguing.

I don't see this as the great new tool for poachers, there are crossbows that can get the job done at a far less hit on the wallet. 

[Buckmaster7600]

How much shooting have you done with a suppressor?

Some I had 2 when I lived in NC before I moved back to NY. Plus what I used in the Corps.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Buckmaster7600

[EspressoBuzz]

Big bore air guns have been around since the 1600's why would there be a NICS check now? My .30 caliber air rifle is the same now as it was before being legal for big game hunting so what am I missing?

[DirtTime]

I made a comment about suppressors. I get they don't quite noise, but transfer the flash so it doesn't have the muzzle flash of a normal bullet exit. A silencer is meant to reduce or muffle the sound of muzzle blast noise.

As far back as I can remember ( over 30 years ) silencers weren't legal in NY.

[Buckmaster7600]

I made a comment about suppressors. I get they don't quite noise, but transfer the flash so it doesn't have the muzzle flash of a normal bullet exit. A silencer is meant to reduce or muffle the sound of muzzle blast noise.

As far back as I can remember ( over 30 years ) silencers weren't legal in NY.

A flash suppressor and a noise suppressor are two different things.

[DirtTime]

Yeah, I just said that. One reduces the flash a bullet leaving the muzzle makes, and the other reduces the noise a bullet makes leaving the muzzle. The latter in my neck of the woods was always called a "silencer". I said and I could be wrong, but silencers haven't been legal in NY for the 30 years I have been hunting and using firearms.

[Lawdwaz]

Some I had 2 when I lived in NC before I moved back to NY. Plus what I used in the Corps.

 

Surprising.......It seems than they are pretty hot these days in other states, I've never shot one but from what I read folks really dig them.

[Buckmaster7600]

Surprising.......It seems than they are pretty hot these days in other states, I've never shot one but from what I read folks really dig them.

They are a lot of fun! As far as hunting there isn't any subsonic ammo that I would feel confident with for hunting deer but many do. There are countries in Europe that suppressors are mandatory for big game hunting.

[DirtTime]

OK, I was looking and came across this site;

http://www.extremebigboreairrifles.com

They seem to know what they are doing and talking about.

[Buckmaster7600]

OK, I was looking and came across this site;

http://www.extremebigboreairrifles.com

They seem to know what they are doing and talking about.

Some of those big bore numbers are impressive!

[DirtTime]

But that price is outrageous.