Encouraging private land being opened to general hunting

[Padre86]

2 minutes ago, tom343 said:

It is the notion of not having to share the woods that makes hunters want to get on posted land, They want to get on this land by themselves. Just look at how much public and co-op land in NYS is available for hunting now. But you have to walk if you want to beat the crowd! There are fewer hunters every year to boot. If the state was serious about opening up private land, they'd forbid hunting on posted land even by the owner.

Yes, there is a reason why many prefer to hunt on private lands.  And IMHO, I think there always will be and should be private land access...if people want to pay a little extra to go hunt on exclusive land, what not?  That puts a bit more money into rural economies (which are very depressed in most of NYS) and keeps the deer on private land properly managed.

 

I think in an ideal world, there would be a mix of land options: fully public land where anyone could hunt; privately-owned land that is open to public hunting (via some sort of state tax incentive program); and private land where only the landowner and/or paying lease members hunt.  

 

That statement about forbidding hunting on private land would never happen and is a great way to let deer numbers get out of hand.

[Doc]

11 minutes ago, Padre86 said:

Like I said, tax incentives (which is a huge hindrance to many rural land owners) and some form of liability protection would go a long way in persuading some landowners to open up their lands.  This is something that would have to go well beyond the scope of the DEC and get bipartisan support in the state  legislature and judicial review to ensure that some landowner doesn't get screwed over when a hunter shoots himself in the foot and then tries to the sue.

 

I think such a program is totally feasible on small, regional scale and applicable to certain areas (the ADK landowners and hunters probably wouldn't be interested in this because of all the public land that is available there).  But hunters and landowners in the Finger Lakes region for example, might see some value in this.  Couple this with some sort of mobile app (which isn't hard to do nowadays) and it should be fairly easy to inform hunters on which landowners have opened their land to public hunting.

Tax incentives are simply picking the pockets of all tax-payers to reward hunters. And from what I have read here, it would take some pretty healthy incentives to convince landowners to open up their properties. Probably a ridiculous percentage of tax revenues just to enhance hunting. I have to be realistic and say that it likely will never happen. It sounds like hunter subsidy even by those that don't hunt. At some point we have to stop thinking about raiding the public money for every little wish and want.

As far as liability protection, I believe they already have made significant changes along those lines that have pretty much made frivolous landowner liability suits a thing of the past.

[Padre86]

16 minutes ago, Doc said:

Tax incentives are simply picking the pockets of all tax-payers to reward hunters. And from what I have read here, it would take some pretty healthy incentives to convince landowners to open up their properties. Probably a ridiculous percentage of tax revenues just to enhance hunting. I have to be realistic and say that it likely will never happen. It sounds like hunter subsidy even by those that don't hunt. At some point we have to stop thinking about raiding the public money for every little wish and want.

As far as liability protection, I believe they already have made significant changes along those lines that have pretty much made frivolous landowner liability suits a thing of the past.

Tax incentives are "picking the pockets" of all tax-payers?  I'm not following your logic there.  It is giving rural landowners, most of whom are by no means rich or a well-off, an incentive to give public access for hunting.  The public benefits in that they can now legally hunt on designated pieces of private land, so there is an universal benefit.

 

This method has been used for a variety of purposes, like motivating private ownership of solar panels in some states.  And in NY, this very method is used for landowners who open up their land to conservation easements (some of which allow hunting):

 

http://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/26428.html

 

So, in a sense, tax incentives for opening up private land to hunting is already happening in NY state.

 

I can't speak too much on the issue of liability and private landownership.  I do know that hunting is allowed on private land in the ADK's where conservation easements have been placed and I haven't heard of any major civil law suits from accidents occurring there, so there might be some landowners protections already in place.  But I can't speak for how that works state-wide.

[Buckmaster7600]

I pay nearly just over 5k a year and they could make it so I wouldn't have to pay any land taxes and I still would not allow public to hunt it.


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[Padre86]

1 minute ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

I pay nearly just over 5k a year and they could make it so I wouldn't have to pay any land taxes and I still would not allow public to hunt it.


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I agree with that.  Opening up land to public hunting should be purely voluntary.  

There should be a voluntary system in place whereby if a landowner decides to open up his/her land to public access, he should receive tax credits; it sounds like such a system is already in place according to the DEC website.

[tom343]

Well how about the idea that game belongs to all the citizens and any effort to put in plots, feed, bait, etc. anywhere should be a violation?. How about the idea that harassing or impeding hunters is already illegal and posting land is exactly that?

Edited July 30, 2016 by tom343

[moog5050]

Geeze Tom.  Spoken like someone that wants access to land I paid for and continue to pay taxes on annually. I am sorry I am impeding your hunting by not letting you on.  Good news though, you can go buy your own parcel with your own money and let the world on if you choose.  Or just hunt the thousands of acres of public land that are already available to those that choose to use their money on other things.  Perhaps you should have the right to my truck also to haul your deer out.  C'mon. Are you serious?

[Padre86]

1 minute ago, tom343 said:

Well how about the idea that game belongs to the citizens and any effort to put in plots, feed, bait, etc. anywhere should be a violation?. How about the idea that harassing or impeding hunters is already illegal and posting land is exactly that?

I'm not sure where you are going with this.

 

Wildlife does belong to the state and is managed by the state.  That is why all hunters, even those hunting on their own land, have to abide by state regulations and seasons.

 

Having food growths on private land is not illegal nor is it unethical.  It's a method for keeping a healthy deer population in certain regions.  Salt-licks and certain types of "bait" are illegal as per DEC rules.  If you think having food sources on your land constitutes a violation, then we would need to shut down all agricultural activity in this state; there is a reason why deer densities are much higher in western NY versus the Northern Zone.

 

So keeping hunters off of private land now counts has "hunter harassment?"  How so?

[tom343]

Keeping hunters off of private land? Owing to many practices, baiting being one, deer congregate on the private land and abandon the public woods. The difference between these growth food plots and baiting escapes me.

When we first started to hunt, 1958 in my case, we got all these maps of the Catskill Forest preserve, which has a lot of public land. The maps didn't show how access to this area was denied, cut off by New York City, Hunting Clubs, YMCA, and some farms, Posting state land so the outlander thinks the land may not be used is another common practice that for political reasons, the local law turns a blind eye to. We then went up to the Adirondacks, where I hunt to this day. As time has passed, the trip up there has become daunting in terms of length and cost. I live 90 minutes from the Catskills but selfish people have made them useless.

[Padre86]

12 minutes ago, tom343 said:

Keeping hunters off of private land? Owing to many practices, baiting being one, deer congregate on the private land and abandon the public woods. The difference between these growth food plots and baiting escapes me.

When we first started to hunt, 1958 in my case, we got all these maps of the Catskill Forest preserve, which has a lot of public land. The maps didn't show how access to this area was denied, cut off by New York City, Hunting Clubs, YMCA, and some farms, Posting state land so the outlander thinks the land may not be used is another common practice that for political reasons, the local law turns a blind eye to. We then went up to the Adirondacks, where I hunt to this day. As time has passed, the trip up there has become daunting in terms of length and cost. I live 90 minutes from the Catskills but selfish people have made them useless.

The maps I've seen of the Catskill area show pretty extensive access points and parking areas:

http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/lands_forests_pdf/catmapguide.pdf

 

There does seem to be large amounts of public land there, but it is also very close to some high population centers.  I'd imagine that hunter numbers and pressure, more than any sort of "baiting" technique is what makes hunting difficult there.  I deal with the same issue when I hunt on state land in the finger lakes region...I end up bumping into more hunters than I do deer.  So now I either hunt on leased land in the Finger Lakes or I go to the ADK's, where the hunter numbers are much less.  That's simply the nature of hunting in an agricultural state like NY.  If you want more extensive public land hunting opportunities, move out west where there is much more in the way of state and federal land to hunt on.

 

Prohibiting private land hunting or wildlife management techniques is not the answer.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Padre86

[growalot]

Talk about the green eyed monster making an appearance....WOW...lol

[SteveB]

2 hours ago, tom343 said:

  There are fewer hunters every year to boot. If the state was serious about opening up private land, they'd forbid hunting on posted land even by the owner.

You would be good with that??!!

2 hours ago, tom343 said:

Well how about the idea that game belongs to all the citizens and any effort to put in plots, feed, bait, etc. anywhere should be a violation?. How about the idea that harassing or impeding hunters is already illegal and posting land is exactly that?

How about the idea that people coming on and utilizing land I paid for, maintain and pay taxes on should be my decision. Or just leave your keys in your car, front door open and the fridge stocked so I can grab a bite and go for a ride.

[Padre86]

FWIW, if we are talking about public land that is otherwise inaccessible to people due to being surrounded by private land (which I believe Tom had referred to), then yes I agree there should be a solution for that.  Generally speaking, the state will negotiate conservation easements with private landowners in order to allow people to access closed-off public land.

These easements are actually seen a lot in the ADK's for this very purpose.  I'm not sure if they exist in the Catskills to the same degree, but if you are worried about land access, Tom, you should be arguing for conservation easements instead of arguing for a prohibition of private-land hunting and food plot management. 

[tom343]

Having hunted in NYS (born there in 1940 ) and having had no difficulty finding access in the Northern Zone, I note the name of the forum and its objective and find these responses from land owners are all negative. Isn't this negative attitude the issue? Isn't overcoming it the goal?

[Chef]

Having hunted in NYS (born there in 1940 ) and having had no difficulty finding access in the Northern Zone, I note the name of the forum and its objective and find these responses from land owners are all negative. Isn't this negative attitude the issue? Isn't overcoming it the goal?

You sound like a democrat... You want everyone else's stuff and you want it for free....what should we call it land access welfare.... Next you are going to want my land owner doe tags as your food stamps.. Go get a grip on reality my friend


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[DirtTime]

3 hours ago, tom343 said:

Having hunted in NYS (born there in 1940 ) and having had no difficulty finding access in the Northern Zone, I note the name of the forum and its objective and find these responses from land owners are all negative. Isn't this negative attitude the issue? Isn't overcoming it the goal?

So you don't hunt in NY anymore?

Times have changed, a lot! People sue if you spill coffee on their new shoes. Most hunters are good people and if they got hurt on your land, they would take the responsibility for that. Some, ( dare I go there? ) would sue the crap out of you for getting a rip in their pants, or your tree put a mark on the new climber. 

If you want to open your land to the public, have at it! Don't whine when some looser sues you and takes said land.

As for the people that bought their land, post the $*** out of it, and don't allow other hunters on it? It's their land! Respect that and move along.

 

Why do so many people on here lately insist on telling other people what ammo to shoot, what deer to shoot, what to do with the land they paid for, and all the other agendas?

Stop telling people what to do!

 

 

[growalot]

They all sound like Democrats to me...which is no surprise the line between parties has blurred greatly over the years..

[Doc]

16 hours ago, Padre86 said:

Tax incentives are "picking the pockets" of all tax-payers?  I'm not following your logic there.  It is giving rural landowners, most of whom are by no means rich or a well-off, an incentive to give public access for hunting.  The public benefits in that they can now legally hunt on designated pieces of private land, so there is an universal benefit.

Exactly where do you think the money comes from that makes up for the lost revenue due to "tax break incentives"? That is the problem today. People think that money spent on tax incentives is "free" money. The other government budget items didn't go anywhere, so somebody has to make up for ythe lost revenue paid to landowners.

 

This method has been used for a variety of purposes, like motivating private ownership of solar panels in some states.  And in NY, this very method is used for landowners who open up their land to conservation easements (some of which allow hunting):

And you believe that those tax incentive are paid for by who......the "tax fairy"? There is no free lunch!

 

http://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/26428.html

 

So, in a sense, tax incentives for opening up private land to hunting is already happening in NY state.

And those incentives are paid for by all of us. Do not be confused about that. There were no corresponding cuts in government expenditures to backfill the cut in landowner taxes.

 

I can't speak too much on the issue of liability and private landownership.  I do know that hunting is allowed on private land in the ADK's where conservation easements have been placed and I haven't heard of any major civil law suits from accidents occurring there, so there might be some landowners protections already in place.  But I can't speak for how that works state-wide.

Well, I can. The NYS laws have been amended to remove frivolous liability suits especially for purposes of protecting landowners across the state.

 

[Padre86]

5 hours ago, Doc said:

Exactly where do you think the money comes from that makes up for the lost revenue due to "tax break incentives"? That is the problem today. People think that money spent on tax incentives is "free" money. The other government budget items didn't go anywhere, so somebody has to make up for ythe lost revenue paid to landowners.

The DEC tax incentive program for private landowners opening up land to public use gives a payback to the public:

people are now allowed to use these conservation easements, not just for hunting, but for all types of uses (hiking, camping, paddling, ect).

 

This program that you insist won't work is in fact already in place in NYS.

 

As for tax incentives stealing the tax-payer's money, I couldn't tell you how much of a cut this incentive program causes to the NY's overall revenue, and I doubt you could either, seeing as you didn't even know this tax incentive program existed in the first place.  But you know what else steals money from the tax-payer?  The actual taxes do.  And in this state, which has one of the highest tax rates in the country, I'd be more inclined to complain about actual taxes levied rather than taxes refunded back due to incentive programs.

 

All that aside, I'm quite amazed that you started this thread with the intention of discussing ways to incentive private landowners to open up their land to the public, and yet when you learn about a state program which does just that you criticize it because it "steals" money from the taxpayer.....make up your mind.